When Should Weapon's Training Begin?

[Brian Johns]

Coming from FMAs, I voted for first day, right off the bat, as soon as they step into the room ! I agree with the FMA posters on this thread and will add that working with canes will enhance your empty hand self defense skill set.

Take care,
Brian Johns

 

[JustAVisitor]

Beginners (pre BB) in my school learn (among other things) 5 animals. Each animal embodies a specific set of techniques. We discover an animal through a basic empty hand form. When the techniques empty handed are considered good enough, then we learn another form of the same animal, this time, with the basic animal's weapon. The principle is 'if you don't get it, empty handed, how can you do it with a weapon?'. It is a theory that makes sense... to me...
However, my little sister practiced Kali for awhile, and she had those little nasty sticks in her hands from day one. The theory was 'This is it. Kali is about those sticks.' That makes sense too.
So i guess that i all depends on what you want to do and which martial art you have chosen.

 

[chinto]

from as soon as they have the basic stances and such learned.. from white belt depending of course on the weapon. I would not start a white belt on kama, but bo or tunfa or nunchuku.. yes.

 

[kamishinkan]

We begin weapons training (Bo, Jo, Sword) after the student earns Shodan (1st Black Belt).

 

[LanJie]

In the styles I have studied Shaolin Kenpo (Chinese influenced Karate/Kung Fu Hybrid) and Tai Chi Praying Mantis Kung Fu (Traditional Northern Kung Fu)

The first weapon is the staff and it is the basis for all other weapons.

In both systems the staff was taught after about one year of training.

The rational for training in weapons for both systems is too develop better reflexes, and expertise to apply to empty hand self defense; apply this ancient weapon knowledge to weapons of similar type in the modern world; and to preserve the ancient tradition of weapon training.

 

[bowser666]

I dont think it is safe or smart to start weapons right away. There are a lot of core elements that need to be learned first before moving into weapons. For teh safety of teacher and student.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I dont think it is safe or smart to start weapons right away. There are a lot of core elements that need to be learned first before moving into weapons. For teh safety of teacher and student.

Could you explain more?

Why for the safety of the teacher and the student?

Thanks

 

[Grenadier]

I dont think it is safe or smart to start weapons right away. There are a lot of core elements that need to be learned first before moving into weapons. For teh safety of teacher and student.

I agree here. It's not just the immediate safety of the student, but also for the long term.

Aside from the obvious, of where a student might directly injure someone with a poorly controlled swing of a weapon, even swinging an ordinary rokushaku (bo) can prove hazardous to the student in the long run, if the body mechanics are not correct.

Some folks whose bo training was gained from watching movies, for example, might be swinging almost entirely with their arms, and not using the legs and hips to drive the bo in the first place. As a result, some might even develop tendonitis as a result of this self-training.

This is why our school waits until they've at least graduated from the beginner classes, before teaching them kobudo. By the time they hit the intermediate class, they have a good working knowledge of using the whole body to "hit" someone, and this can really help out their kobudo training, by not just being an arm-flailer.

 

[bowser666]

Could you explain more?

Why for the safety of the teacher and the student?

Thanks

I meant that the student has other more important basics to learn first. Most importantly stance work, and striking and blocking. The student needs to have so idea of focus and depth perception which will come from striking/blocking as well as stance work. A foundation must be laid before you can get to training in weapons. My school wait until intermediate level before we start training in weapons and the first one is Shaolin Staff. This will also prevent injury to people in the vicinity of the training student , potentially the teacher, the student him/her self as well as other students around. Like the saying goes, you have to learn how to walk before you can run.

 

[Sukerkin]

A proviso that I think is important is that weapons tuition should come from someone qualified to do so.

That might sound obvious but the number of karate and kung fu instructors who 'tack on' some showy weapons training to their curriculum is difficult to estimate.

With the sword arts in particular, for someone, who does not hold grade in them, to add them to an empty-hand course of study is a recipe for less than stellar results. I only have limited exposure to seeing some karateka's and aikidoka's swinging katana around but those I have witnessed would be better advised to seek out an iai sensei.

Given this, I don't know what to answer in the poll .

My honest answer is 'never' for an empty-hand style with weapons 'trimmings' or right away (clearly ) for a weapons based style.

If the empty-hand teacher is properly graded in a weapons style too, then I would guess that five years of grounding in the non-weapons parts of the schools curriculum should be enough to enable the diversification to be done without dilution of what has been learned.

 

[bowser666]

A proviso that I think is important is that weapons tuition should come from someone qualified to do so.

That might sound obvious but the number of karate and kung fu instructors who 'tack on' some showy weapons training to their curriculum is difficult to estimate.

With the sword arts in particular, for someone, who does not hold grade in them, to add them to an empty-hand course of study is a recipe for less than stellar results. I only have limited exposure to seeing some karateka's and aikidoka's swinging katana around but those I have witnessed would be better advised to seek out an iai sensei.

Given this, I don't know what to answer in the poll .

My honest answer is 'never' for an empty-hand style with weapons 'trimmings' or right away (clearly ) for a weapons based style.

If the empty-hand teacher is properly graded in a weapons style too, then I would guess that five years of grounding in the non-weapons parts of the schools curriculum should be enough to enable the diversification to be done without dilution of what has been learned.

Out of curiosity what would you say in regards to the style that I study ? I study Shaolin Longfist and that has numerous weapons. Would Shaolin Longfist be considered a open hand style or a weapons style ? IMO there seems to be a ton of open hand and weapons training involved in that style. I would appreciate your insight.

 

[Sukerkin]

That is indeed a third option that I didn't go into viz a style wherein the weapons are inherently intended to be included.

I can't speak to the specifics of Shaolin Longfist tho' as, other than hearing it mentioned, to misquote Manuel from Faulty Towers, "I know nothing!" .

 

[Langenschwert]

My honest answer is 'never' for an empty-hand style with weapons 'trimmings' or right away (clearly ) for a weapons based style.

I don't think that there's any danger in starting weapons training right away. That's what they do in most WMA, and that's how I do it. I've never had anyone not use control from the very start.

Perhaps some people delay weapons training so long because they don't know enough about weapons to actually have a cirriculum? :flame:

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Flying Crane]

I think it depends a lot on the student. Some are ready and capable sooner than others. Some will never be, and should never pick up a real weapon. Some should always use blunts or fakes or something, and should never use a live weapon such as a sword with a sharp edge.

When I was young and started in the martial arts, I began in kenpo. We had some limited bo and stick training, which was introduced around brown belt. At the time, that seemed reasonable to me. I was young, perhaps I should not be playing with such things prior to then (altho I bought real nunchaku, throwing stars, and sai prior to ever training, I was rather young and I'm surprised in retrospect that I was able to convince my mother to go along with it...)

Anyway, when I began studying Chinese arts as an adult, my sifu introduced taiji sword after perhaps a year or so of training, and he introduced White Crane staff again after perhaps a year, followed by broadsword. Now he'll teach me whatever I am interested in, if it's something he knows.

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule. I tend to agree with Sukerkin, an art that is focused on weapons, such as Philippine arts and Japanese sword arts and Western sword arts, need to introduce the weapon right away. I suppose in those cases, the question to ask might be, when is it appropriate to graduate the student from blunts to live blades and such. Again, I think that just depends on the student and the teacher's trust in him.

I don't like the idea of a hand art that tacks on weapons as an afterthought, if this is ever really done. However the weapon is included, the teacher ought to know what he is doing. When to introduce them? I suppose that would depend on what the teacher wants for the focus of the school. If empty-hand is to be the focus of the training, then leaving weapons for later might be appropriate.

But if it is a Chinese art, many of which incorporate weapons as a matter of course, I think whenever the sifu feels the student is capable of handling it. For some that will be sooner, for others it will be later. For still others, never.

 

[bowser666]

Some very good points in this thread. I also agree that ultimately it is the teachers decision. I do feel that , for myself, it shows a dedication that you are willing to train for 3-6 months before you start training weapons. If you have the "patience" to wait for weapons training then you will appreciate it more. Not to mention it is possible to give students a false sense of confidence in a weapon and thus potentially lower their confidence if they rely too heavily on weapons and then there isn't one around when they need it. It may cause a feeling of inadequacy and potentially be dangerous for the student. Most encounters are going to occur when there is no weapon on hand.

Unless you are always packing sai, sword, staff, etc...... Picture that in this day and age and I bet you will get a million stares

 

[Bodhisattva]

When whould weapon's training begin? By weapon's training, I don't mean empty hand defense against a weapon, but actual usage/techniques/strategy of a particular weapon...ie stick, knife, sword, staff, anything.

In order to further illustrate this question, I'll give a few examples from my training in arts that included weapons. In Shotokan one does not learn weapons until shodan. In Jujutsu one does not learn weapons until higher dan ranks. In Arnis de Mano, weapons training began the first day. In Kali, weapons training began the first day. In Tang Soo Do, weapons training began after two to three years of empty hand training.

Is there a reason that you think it should begin at the time you picked? Why is that?

Whenever people want to train them, that's when.

 

[The Anarchist]

If I taught (might someday), then I don't think I should teach anyone that I COULDN'T be trusted with weapons training.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I meant that the student has other more important basics to learn first. Most importantly stance work, and striking and blocking. The student needs to have so idea of focus and depth perception which will come from striking/blocking as well as stance work. A foundation must be laid before you can get to training in weapons. My school wait until intermediate level before we start training in weapons and the first one is Shaolin Staff. This will also prevent injury to people in the vicinity of the training student , potentially the teacher, the student him/her self as well as other students around. Like the saying goes, you have to learn how to walk before you can run.

Interesting.

I use the weapon to show why one needs to have proper body mechanics from the beginning. I use the weapon to help with distance and also control from the beginning.

 

[geezer]

Interesting.

I use the weapon to show why one needs to have proper body mechanics from the beginning. I use the weapon to help with distance and also control from the beginning.

In this way, weapons training really helps to teach good body dynamics. When it's not coming together right, the weapon really shows up the problem. BTW, did you ever hear that old karate saying that "weapons are just an extention of your empty hand techniques"? Well, you might as well go around saying, "Empty hands are just an abbreviation of weapons technique!" ...at least that's how we look at it in the FMAs.

If you take away a long stick and give a guy a short one, he should be able to adjust. Then give him a palm stick (yawara for the JMA folks). Then let him use his palms or fists. The transitions become seamless and automatic. There is no dependence on the weapon, as Bowser supposed. Anything handy can be a weapon...or nothing at all. You're attitude makes it work with whatever you've got. And the sooner you start training like that, the better.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have been thinking about this thread and the question of when weapons training should begin. I have come to the conclusion that training b should begin with the first day a person is handed a weapon. It should be started at home when that young person is given his/her first knife, gun, bow, etc.

The training should start with the proper respect for the weapon and common rules of respect and use.

If It is a knife the person should be taught how to open and close or draw it properly.

They should learn how to properly care for, clean. And use that weapon. They should also use that weapon as often as possible so that they are familiar with the feel, weight, etc. of that weapon.

Weapons training should not have to start in a classroom, dojo, etc. It should start with the gift or purchase of that weapon.

Now if a person has never handled a weapon in their entire life that is a different story