When is enough enough?
- Thread starter Phoenix44
- Start date
I think it is important that even if there are no specific requirements, that it is communicated what the expectations are for your future progress. Something most successful people have in common is setting goals. Its hard to do that when you don't know what the expectations are or how to get there. I give you a lot of credit for persisting this long without being given clear direction. It sounds like its time to get that cleared up though.
QFT
I see shodan as a journeyman in the trades. A person has learned enough to be proficient and now they are at the point where they can direct their own learning. BB level learning should be self directed and interally motivated. If you were at my school and you came to me, I would ask you what you were doing with your time? How have you taken what I've taught at developed it on your own.
To many people expect a checklist. Especially people who are highly educated and hold advanced degrees. Life, real life, and real learning is different. Perhaps you could put more effort into connecting the purpose of one class to another. Part of this could be your teacher's fault. Perhaps, there really are no objectives that drive the BB curriculum and its just a mish mash.
Or maybe you haven't stopped to figure it out. Maybe you need to stop training for a while and practice on your own. Think about what you know and try and divine some sort of direction.
Or maybe just talk to your teacher...
Arts and whats required will vary from art to art. I used the art that I train (Kenpo) as an example. As far as techniques go, once you reach the upper levels, its pretty much refining, etc. I can't speak for you art though, as I'm not sure what you train in or how the system requirements go.
I still think that you should sit down, 1 on 1 with your teacher and discuss things.
OP
OP
Phoenix44
Master of Arts
Ybot, maybe my initial post wasn't clear--I didn't intend to give anyone the idea that I feel that I "know it all," that I'm not interested in improving what I do know, or that I "blame" my teachers. I certainly don't feel that way. I've been training a long time, and I continue to train, in class and independently, for the purpose of getting better. The conclusion that the other posters have been helping me arrive at is that it's time to have a level-headed talk with sensei to reassess my goals and direction with the guidance of those who have more experience than I do. And that's my plan.
Thanks to all of you who've given me the objective perspective I needed.
Hyper_Shadow
Green Belt
I can't speak for everyone else, but I can very much relate to how you're feeling, from a slightly different perspective. I progressed incredibly quickly through my dojo and I'm very fortunate to have a natural knack for what I do. My problem came when I'd excelled past most of the other students in my dojo. The problem for me was that I was still hungrily baying for time and my instructors direct attention. I didn't understand it then, but I needed to slow down, I was fast going to burn myself out. Obviously I didn't see it and I felt headstrong and right at the time. Fortunately for me, my instructor carefully and subtly guided me to small units of discovery that kept me interested whilst allowing me to slow down and refine my technique. I've learned that getting Shodan is really nothing, it's the first step on the ladder and you're the only person that can climb it. You're instructor won't be able to inforce a strict student/teacher relationship anymore and so they'll let you grow at your own pace. Don't worry about the grade. Hell, what's a belt for? To keep your Gi tidy, hold your trousers up or keep your sword on your hip. Just ask questions, ask why and how as often as you can. Take in what you can without worrying about how many stripes you carry on your belt.
I can't really say fairer than that, and I don't know what the point I'm trying to make is, but there's some meaning there somewhere. Hope it helps.
I can't really say fairer than that, and I don't know what the point I'm trying to make is, but there's some meaning there somewhere. Hope it helps.
Phoenix, I've taught university for 35+ years, and during most of that time, most of my classes have been with graduate students. So it's always natural for me to relate what happens in MA instruction to what happens in undergraduate/graduate education, and it's true, there are some similarities. In both of them, the highest degree—BB and Ph.D. respectively—is widely accepted as being merely the starting point for really learning the length, breadth and depth of your craft. But there's a significant difference: doing a Ph.D. means that there's a small, specialized domain of your field that you know better than anyone else in the world—that's the idea, and it really does often work out like that. It's a very focused domain of expertise, but you own it (till the next graduate student takes the topic on five years or so down the line, from a different angle, and may well supersede your contribution, lol). But in the MAs, I don't think that's even remotely true. Even after your BB, you're still in school. Like the newly minted Ph.D. you now are, so to speak, licensed to freely explore your art from many points of view, but in the normal course of things there is no component of it that you know better than everyone else on the planet, and most definitely not your instructor. Even though you're equipped to explore the field, you still need a certain amount of guidance as to what you need to go on to do, and how to learn it. In an academic field, the doctorate means your coursework is over; but what happens in effect is that the whole field takes on the direction of your continuing education. You write papers for submission to important journals—at least if you're pursuing tenure in an academic career—and the referees for those journals give you feedback on what you've submitted. You send in abstracts to high-profile conferences and colloquia, and the same thing happens. You write up long, detailed applications for research funds from governement sponsoring agencies, and the advisory panel tells you what you need to do to sharpen your resubmission. Etc. None of that happens in the MAs; what happens instead is that your instructor continues to teach you, and help you in your increasingly independent development as an MAist. He or s/he continues in his or her previous role, even as you gradually increase the radius of your own, personally driven expansion of your MA skills.
That's why I think it's really critical that you talk to your instructor about this problem, because while it's true that the full responsibility can't be laid at the instructor's door for a Shodan's future progress, the instructor still plays an invaluable shaping role in that progress, and information is crucial to it. Obtaining the kind of information I was talking about in academic fields of study is easy (sometimes it feels all too easy, in a profession where everyone is an eager and sometimes harsh critic). In the MAs, it really hangs on your own teacher whether you get the feedback you need to help fuel that personal growth in the art, or not. You're independent, but you're also someone's student and protogĆ©—that's the slightly paradoxical situation of the new black belt, as I picture it.
It's clear to me from your posts that rank isn't what's really on your mind, but your growth in the art and how to keep it going productively. It's absolutely essential that you approach your instructor with these concerns, I think.
That's why I think it's really critical that you talk to your instructor about this problem, because while it's true that the full responsibility can't be laid at the instructor's door for a Shodan's future progress, the instructor still plays an invaluable shaping role in that progress, and information is crucial to it. Obtaining the kind of information I was talking about in academic fields of study is easy (sometimes it feels all too easy, in a profession where everyone is an eager and sometimes harsh critic). In the MAs, it really hangs on your own teacher whether you get the feedback you need to help fuel that personal growth in the art, or not. You're independent, but you're also someone's student and protogĆ©—that's the slightly paradoxical situation of the new black belt, as I picture it.
It's clear to me from your posts that rank isn't what's really on your mind, but your growth in the art and how to keep it going productively. It's absolutely essential that you approach your instructor with these concerns, I think.
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I think that Phoenix needs to speak to her instructor -- but not from a "why am I not advancing in rank" standpoint, but from the standpoint that she feels that her learning has stagnated. That, to me, is the problem -- not the rank. I don't think she'd be feeling the frustration with her rank if she felt she was still learning.
It may be something as simple as it slipped her instructor's mind. It may be that he's been waiting for her to ask. I know that sometimes, it's a matter of who is championing your cause... or simply leaving it in the ranking authority's hands.
It may be something as simple as it slipped her instructor's mind. It may be that he's been waiting for her to ask. I know that sometimes, it's a matter of who is championing your cause... or simply leaving it in the ranking authority's hands.
OP
OP
Phoenix44
Master of Arts
Well, I did talk to sensei, and here's the essence.
It was not an oversight, nor was he waiting for me to bring it up. In fact, as he put it, he was almost hoping I wouldn't bring it up because my issues bring up a whole bunch of similar issues involving the dojo on a broader scale, other black belt students, and the people who began training more recently than I.
Some of my own personal situation stems from an assumption...unjustified assumption...he had. Some of my situation was just fallout from stuff that has nothing to do with me. Plus, clearly things had settled into cycle of stagnation: no clearly articulated objectives resulting in lack of goal oriented behavior resulting in no clearly articulated objectives, and so on. He actually admitted that he, as my instructor, was wrong in not initiating the discussion with me years ago. But the upshot is that he is going to meet with me again to discuss a clearer set of objectives that we can both feel comfortable with. So there you have it. A good outcome, I think. As for the broader dojo implication, well, that'll have to be addressed on a systemic level...and probably soon.
So again, thanks. I don't think I could have presented my concerns as clearly and rationally as I did if I hadn't had your input.
It was not an oversight, nor was he waiting for me to bring it up. In fact, as he put it, he was almost hoping I wouldn't bring it up because my issues bring up a whole bunch of similar issues involving the dojo on a broader scale, other black belt students, and the people who began training more recently than I.
Some of my own personal situation stems from an assumption...unjustified assumption...he had. Some of my situation was just fallout from stuff that has nothing to do with me. Plus, clearly things had settled into cycle of stagnation: no clearly articulated objectives resulting in lack of goal oriented behavior resulting in no clearly articulated objectives, and so on. He actually admitted that he, as my instructor, was wrong in not initiating the discussion with me years ago. But the upshot is that he is going to meet with me again to discuss a clearer set of objectives that we can both feel comfortable with. So there you have it. A good outcome, I think. As for the broader dojo implication, well, that'll have to be addressed on a systemic level...and probably soon.
So again, thanks. I don't think I could have presented my concerns as clearly and rationally as I did if I hadn't had your input.
I am glad that it worked out for you! I hope he does follow up by making a fair path of progression and communicating with you soon. Way to go!
I agree - I'm glad we were able to help.
OP
OP
Phoenix44
Master of Arts
As I see it, there's also a lesson in this for me as an instructor: Give constructive criticism where it's justified, credit where it's due, don't make unfounded assumptions, have high expectations and make them clear. Most people will rise to the occasion, given a chance.
Hyper_Shadow
Green Belt
Yeah! Kick *** and take names! Glad to see you've grown a bit as a Martial Artist. It's all part of the great spiral.
OP
OP
Phoenix44
Master of Arts
Yeah. Hope it's not a downward spiral!
chinto
Senior Master
I would say go back to your kata/forms and look for at least 5 techniques for each movement.. and get as many as you can in mind.. then well try them and perhaps start showing some of them to others... i think you will get promoted.. ( in the system I study you do not learn any more empty hand kata as you are tested on all the empty hand kata for shodan ho.... so then on up you work on all the kata you have learned and weapons . )
Hyper_Shadow
Green Belt
Whether the spiral moves upwards or downwards isn't the point, the goal is to reach the ever fluid serenity at the eye.
bowser666
2nd Black Belt
Have you ever thought that there might not be anymore that he can teach? Maybe he has plateaued as a Instructor. Which is not your fault or his fault for that matter. It could simply be that simple. He has nothing more to teach you. Perhaps it is time for you to move on and find another teacher that is more knowledgeable to expand your skills and understanding of your art. Just a thought.
OP
OP
Phoenix44
Master of Arts
That's an interesting thought. Considering it, I'd have to say that's not the case. He's continued training with his various instructors his whole life, and he's still expanding his own already expansive knowledge base. I'm pretty sure I'd recognize by now the difference between "There's nothing more for me to get here," as opposed to "There's plenty more for me to get here, so why am I not getting it?"
Plus, it's not necessarily about new curriculum, per se. He can still teach me how to improve the timing and power of the roundhouse kick he taught me my second week of class!
Having talked to him, I think some of it's our own personal stuff (on both our parts), some of it is just "life getting in the way," some of it's just philosophical. Look, I don't need my hand held, but I do need occasional feedback and some sense of direction. Maybe that's just me. Other people are perfectly happy to just come down and train once in awhile, you know?
Plus, it's not necessarily about new curriculum, per se. He can still teach me how to improve the timing and power of the roundhouse kick he taught me my second week of class!
Having talked to him, I think some of it's our own personal stuff (on both our parts), some of it is just "life getting in the way," some of it's just philosophical. Look, I don't need my hand held, but I do need occasional feedback and some sense of direction. Maybe that's just me. Other people are perfectly happy to just come down and train once in awhile, you know?
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