When is a Master

[andyjeffries]

Maybe one thing that makes me more comfortable with the title master is that I'm UK born and raised and over here, we use the title for any/all under-18 boys if you're being formal. So we had teachers call us "Master Jeffries" if they were being formal.

There was a time when my son and I would jokingly call each other "Master Jeffries", when I was a Taekwondo master and he was early teens.

So for me, that word is not a big deal.

 

[Gyakuto]

So when an examiner gives you a 4th Dan in Kukki-Taekwondo, they are generally conferring the title upon you.

When you pass the Kukkiwon "Master Instructor Course", the Kukkiwon organisation is conferring the title upon you. Looks like this https://www.stevenagetaekwondo.co.u...a5f5dab3d116cbfd224fbccedf35840dba539ddd6.jpg

Either way this isn't the person at some random point choosing to use the title, it came as part of some certification conferred by someone else.

I think we have to accept these titles of master and grandmaster are aggrandising and those receiving the title often wish to use them. It’s unseemly in my opinion. Like i said before somewhere, we should just use the honorific in the original language of the art and stop trying to translate them into English which appears to lack the nuance required.

 

[Gyakuto]

Maybe one thing that makes me more comfortable with the title master is that I'm UK born and raised and over here, we use the title for any/all under-18 boys if you're being formal. So we had teachers call us "Master Jeffries" if they were being formal.

It’s not the same thing, andyjeffries.

There was a time when my son and I would jokingly call each other "Master Jeffries", when I was a Taekwondo master and he was early teens.

Don’t belittle that noble title!

I’ve only heard Otsuka Hironori, the developer of Wado Ryu Karate referred as ‘Meijin’ who received the title from the Emperor of Japan. I think Kano Jigoro received it too.

 

[HighKick]

Yeah, we definitely don't allow that in my dojang.

Out of interest, have you attended the course in Korea or elsewhere. In Korea I feel they have the best instructors available, and the course is pretty consistent (I did it twice - 3rd Class in 2013, 2nd Class in 2016 and it was pretty consistent).

Also, the physical test helps at least ensure some consistency in poomsae quality, from what I heard the courses in the US have a crazy high failure rate (but that's anecdotal)


To be honest, I am too. I am by rank a GM, but if people call me GM, master or just Andy it's fine. I tend to use titles with my master level students (and they me) in front of students, particularly children, because it will help them have the correct decorum in front of visiting masters/guests - but I don't ever get mad if they just call me Andy

Indeed, my Korean is conversational level, but I've never bothered learning lots of common job titles, so I often forget (and as most of my conversations in Korean are about Taekwondo, I can stick to Sabeomnim and Kwanjangnim)

So if you were giving a talk at a conference, would you put your Dr. title or PhD postnominals on the slide or introduce yourself as it?

I don't know if you mistyped South or that's a specific region somewhere in the world?

I'm in software development and a while ago there was a big push to rename things to be more politically correct. Lots of them didn't stick and are now just back to the older ways (e.g. default Git branch, if your field of engineering is software).

Yeah, we definitely don't allow that in my dojang.

You Never have a red belt individually work with a white belt on down blocks, front stance, middle punch, etc...?

Out of interest, have you attended the course in Korea or elsewhere. In Korea I feel they have the best instructors available, and the course is pretty consistent (I did it twice - 3rd Class in 2013, 2nd Class in 2016 and it was pretty consistent).

Also, the physical test helps at least ensure some consistency in poomsae quality, from what I heard the courses in the US have a crazy high failure rate (but that's anecdotal)

All of my classes have been in the states (Chicago & NY). I am unaware whether the failure rate is high or low comparatively. I cannot say the classes were particularly consistent.

To be honest, I am too. I am by rank a GM, but if people call me GM, master or just Andy it's fine. I tend to use titles with my master level students (and they me) in front of students, particularly children, because it will help them have the correct decorum in front of visiting masters/guests - but I don't ever get mad if they just call me Andy

It is most common (inside & outside of class) for people to be addresses as Mr. & Mrs. here. In class, more often the first name is used to avoid confusion. E.g. Mr. Andy

Indeed, my Korean is conversational level, but I've never bothered learning lots of common job titles, so I often forget (and as most of my conversations in Korean are about Taekwondo, I can stick to Sabeomnim and Kwanjangnim)

Yes, I use the salutations in formal settings with Koreans, but they are mostly irrelevant terms here since English is the primary language.

So if you were giving a talk at a conference, would you put your Dr. title or PhD postnominals on the slide or introduce yourself as it?

Usually not. At least not in an initial address or title. When at a conference or meeting, my experience and reputation usually precede any credentials I can tag onto my name (or I would not be there in the first place). That list would be rather long, boring to most, and pompously baroque.

I don't know if you mistyped South or that's a specific region somewhere in the world?

Apologies; I intended to write 'south'.

I'm in software development and a while ago there was a big push to rename things to be more politically correct. Lots of them didn't stick and are now just back to the older ways (e.g. default Git branch, if your field of engineering is software).

I also see this quite often. It is common to navigate through a lot of newer phrasing and terminology to get to the heart of a matter. Control and automation is going through huge changes in safety state and reliability. There are countless ISO, ANSI, EN, OSHA, etc... regs to sift through just to get to the same old place; ZMS.
I hear PC thrown around from the HR perspective from time to time, but it isn't really an issue here.

 

[andyjeffries]

I think we have to accept these titles of master and grandmaster are aggrandising and those receiving the title often wish to use them. It’s unseemly in my opinion. Like i said before somewhere, we should just use the honorific in the original language of the art and stop trying to translate them into English which appears to lack the nuance required.

Personally I don't find them aggrandising, they're justified and acceptable. In Kukkiwon Taekwondo's case, the Kukkiwon a) wants instructors to teach in their own language and b) use the term "master" to mean a qualified instructor.

In most western countries, to get to be a "master" in Kukkiwon Taekwondo will take a minimum of 10 years of practice and study. In normal fields in those same western countries, to go from a bachelor's degree to a PhD (and a "doctor" title) will take 4-5 years, plus the 3 years for a bachelor's degree gives you approximately the same time period.

So the title comes with an acceptable level of experience and isn't aggrandising. "Master" doesn't mean perfect, or that you know everything, it's simply a title that means you're good enough to teach without needing supervision (not that supervision from a higher grade isn't useful, just that the level of trust is there).

 

[andyjeffries]

It’s not the same thing, andyjeffries.

I know it's not the same thing, my point was that in USA I think lots of people get (arguably justifiably) butt-hurt by the use of the title "master" due to earlier slavery connotations - however, that's not a thing in the UK and by cultural practice we are desensitised to any negativity around the word by using it with children.

 

[andyjeffries]

You Never have a red belt individually work with a white belt on down blocks, front stance, middle punch, etc...?

Genuinely no, we don't.

However, I guess we're lucky that I am an 8th Dan, and we have 3 other master instructors (4th Dan+) at our club. Class sizes rarely exceed 25 students (and more often 15-20 students), so we never need to go that low down the ranks to find someone to teach. Often 2nd/3rd Dans will get some teaching exposure, but monitored by master instructors - in order to help them learn how to teach when they get to master-rank.

On rare occasions (e.g. during holiday/vacation time) or for specific people (that show promise towards being a long-term black belt and interest) we may allow a 1st Dan to teach a small group, but they would be closely monitored 100% of the time by a master instructor, and we view the master instructor's focus for that time as for the 1st Dan to learn how to teach, more than the coloured belts they're teaching.

We may be lucky though that we've not needed to go down as far as coloured belts, at least in as long as I've been a black belt (1990).

 

[Gyakuto]

What is the consensus on senior martial artists calling themselves ‘Professor’?

 

[Silverback]

In our MDK system: 1-3 Teacher, 4-6 Master, 7-9 Grandmaster.
Personally, that's only for really formal situations. Ordinarily, I'm just Sabumnim, or Coach, or even Mark.

In ITF taekwondo 1-3 assistant instructor, 4-6 instructor and international instructor, 7-8 master, 9 Grandmaster.

There are some that believe only one Grandmaster should exist at any one time. However, there are quite a few now

 

[Silverback]

I too like Ramsey Dewey.

However what he is saying may be regional to Shanghai, there are a lot of regional differences in the Chinese language... also Shanghai is not Mandarin, it is Shanghainese (Shanghai dialect). No one in Beijing would call a cab driver shifu..... and in mandarin shifu does not mean sir. Sir in mandarin is (先生) Xiānshēng... and I have never heard a cab driver in Beijing called Xiānshēng either. So Ramsey may be correct in Shanghai, but he is wrong in Beijing. Also I doubt he is correct in Guangzhau or Hong Kong (Cantonese), and I might be there next summer so I'll see what they call cabdrivers. He is also not correct in Heilongjiang

I liked Ramsey but a lot of what he says is not entirely factual and his criticisms tend to be low hanging fruit.

I was racking my brain to try to remember ever hearing a taxi driver in shanghai called sifu. Somewhere I seem to recall this and I remember finding it odd at the time.

However, never in the North.

 

[Gyakuto]

In ITF taekwondo 1-3 assistant instructor, 4-6 instructor and international instructor, 7-8 master, 9 Grandmaster.

I think this is reasonable.

There are some that believe only one Grandmaster should exist at any one time. However, there are quite a few now

‘Grade inflation’

 

[Silverback]

I think this is reasonable.

‘Grade inflation’

I think it certainly helps to have specific level at whoch people can be called master. But it does make people push for grades.

If I recall correctly Rhee Ki Ha refused to take on the title of Grandmaster while General Choi held it. He didn't want to be seen at the same level. It was only when the General changed his title to Founder that he accepted GM. This may be just a story but it fits with the character of the Gentleman. Traditional and traditional to a fault sometimes

 

[HighKick]

Genuinely no, we don't.

However, I guess we're lucky that I am an 8th Dan, and we have 3 other master instructors (4th Dan+) at our club. Class sizes rarely exceed 25 students (and more often 15-20 students), so we never need to go that low down the ranks to find someone to teach. Often 2nd/3rd Dans will get some teaching exposure, but monitored by master instructors - in order to help them learn how to teach when they get to master-rank.

On rare occasions (e.g. during holiday/vacation time) or for specific people (that show promise towards being a long-term black belt and interest) we may allow a 1st Dan to teach a small group, but they would be closely monitored 100% of the time by a master instructor, and we view the master instructor's focus for that time as for the 1st Dan to learn how to teach, more than the coloured belts they're teaching.

We may be lucky though that we've not needed to go down as far as coloured belts, at least in as long as I've been a black belt (1990).

On average, how long does it take to get to black belt in your schoool?

 

[HighKick]

Personally I don't find them aggrandising, they're justified and acceptable. In Kukkiwon Taekwondo's case, the Kukkiwon a) wants instructors to teach in their own language and b) use the term "master" to mean a qualified instructor.

In most western countries, to get to be a "master" in Kukkiwon Taekwondo will take a minimum of 10 years of practice and study. In normal fields in those same western countries, to go from a bachelor's degree to a PhD (and a "doctor" title) will take 4-5 years, plus the 3 years for a bachelor's degree gives you approximately the same time period.

So the title comes with an acceptable level of experience and isn't aggrandising. "Master" doesn't mean perfect, or that you know everything, it's simply a title that means you're good enough to teach without needing supervision (not that supervision from a higher grade isn't useful, just that the level of ( trust is there).

You are Way off.

Bachelors degree: 4-5 years on average (don't buy the 3-year lie)
Graduates degree/PhD - 3-4 years on average (have you ever done a research project? It is grueling. Acceptance rated into PhD programs are low, around 10%)
Residency (which is required to practice) - 2-3 years on average. 7 in some cases

The actual average is above 10 years.

You are fully bought into the Kukkiwon brand and philosophy. I get it and no one is holding that against you. But there is Much more to the style called TKD and martial arts as a whole that you seem to be missing.

And it doesn't matter what product a person is pedaling, the percentage of the group that wants to get to 'master' level, (or whatever the top of the organization is dubbed) is very small. It almost seems you push getting to Master level the same way MLM works. This is not the way I want my schools to operate.

I realize you are in a smaller population and that drives how things are done, so I cannot speak to how this affects your approach. Here, we try our best to offer a class environment for most everyone, from the average kid, Joe or Jane who just wants to exercise, the para-athlete, aged, to the elite. It is a tall order and definitely make it harder on the business owner.

 

[andyjeffries]

On average, how long does it take to get to black belt in your schoool?

3-5 years. VERY RARELY less than 3.

We have one student that got there in about 2 years, but she's a phenom - double graded on coloured belts three times (90%+ is automatic double-grading), she's now a 3rd poom and if we did double gradings at black belt level she'd have hit that twice two. She's currently on the Great Britain Elite Poomsae Squad.

 

[andyjeffries]

You are Way off.

Bachelors degree: 4-5 years on average (don't buy the 3-year lie)

My son and wife both completed their bachelors degrees in three years. My daughter could do hers in three years, but she's choosing to do a sandwich year in industry before her final year making it 4.

Graduates degree/PhD - 3-4 years on average (have you ever done a research project? It is grueling. Acceptance rated into PhD programs are low, around 10%)

No, I have students that have, but still, using your timing makes it 3-4 years + 4-5 years (or 9 years max compared to a normal 4th Dan being about 10 years, so similar).

Residency (which is required to practice) - 2-3 years on average. 7 in some cases

But you get the Dr title after PhD, nothing to do with Residency (I assume you're now talking medicine?), so that's just after master/doctor level training.

The actual average is above 10 years.

You are fully bought into the Kukkiwon brand and philosophy. I get it and no one is holding that against you. But there is Much more to the style called TKD and martial arts as a whole that you seem to be missing.

Absolutely, I accept there is a whole wider world of Taekwondo and martial arts in general (this is in the General forum), but I can only share my opinions and thoughts from my experience To state this more clearly, I'm not saying "I'm right and everyone else is wrong", just explaining what I believe and where my thinking comes from to add to the discussion

And it doesn't matter what product a person is pedaling, the percentage of the group that wants to get to 'master' level, (or whatever the top of the organization is dubbed) is very small. It almost seems you push getting to Master level the same way MLM works. This is not the way I want my schools to operate.

I don't know if I agree with your assertation. I won't promote someone to 4th Dan if they have no interest in teaching at all, or if they can't do it properly at 3rd Dan level. For me 4th Dan and above ranks are for those wanting to teach. If you don't want to teach, then you don't need 4th Dan upwards outside of the ego side of having a higher number. When they get to 4th Dan it implies a level of trust in their ability to teach without supervision.

So in fact it's the opposite I guess, instead of pushing getting to master, I tend to gatekeep getting to master

I realize you are in a smaller population and that drives how things are done, so I cannot speak to how this affects your approach. Here, we try our best to offer a class environment for most everyone, from the average kid, Joe or Jane who just wants to exercise, the para-athlete, aged, to the elite. It is a tall order and definitely make it harder on the business owner.

I run our dojang (club) as a legal non-profit status organisation, so I don't have the ethical conundrums that may come with wanting to run it as a profit-based business. We also want to be a class environment for everyone too (and part of becoming our non-profit legal structure is having that enshrined in our club rules). I believe everyone with enough effort can get to 1st Dan. Not everyone can get to 4th Dan Master, and not everyone wants to.

 

[HighKick]

3-5 years. VERY RARELY less than 3.

We have one student that got there in about 2 years, but she's a phenom - double graded on coloured belts three times (90%+ is automatic double-grading), she's now a 3rd poom and if we did double gradings at black belt level she'd have hit that twice two. She's currently on the Great Britain Elite Poomsae Squad.

We average just over 3-years. I would seldom hesitate to allow one of our 2+ year adult red belts to work with a white belt on basics. The one-on-one training is invaluable and really helps with bonding and kinsmanship. Their work is always double-checked and pressure tested, so there is an efficiency created and a doubling of training and verification.

Let's be honest, much of what we do is not rocket science.

 

[andyjeffries]

We average just over 3-years. I would seldom hesitate to allow one of our 2+ year adult red belts to work with a white belt on basics. The one-on-one training is invaluable and really helps with bonding and kinsmanship. Their work is always double-checked and pressure tested, so there is an efficiency created and a doubling of training and verification.

I agree that what we teach is not rocket science. I think there are specific skills effective martial arts (and specifically Kukkiwon Taekwondo) teachers need, and I just don't personally choose to help coloured belts work on those. I tend to let coloured belts purely focus on their own journeys.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What is the consensus on senior martial artists calling themselves ‘Professor’?

It's not uncommon in BJJ, because "professor" is just Portuguese for "teacher". I don't use it myself because it has different connotations in English. Generally the only folks who have called me professor are either Brazilian or came up in BJJ under a Brazilian instructor, so I think it's a cultural thing.

I don't see much justification for use of the title in arts that don't come from a Portuguese-speaking country.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In most western countries, to get to be a "master" in Kukkiwon Taekwondo will take a minimum of 10 years of practice and study. In normal fields in those same western countries, to go from a bachelor's degree to a PhD (and a "doctor" title) will take 4-5 years, plus the 3 years for a bachelor's degree gives you approximately the same time period.

I think just looking at the years is a bit misleading. If you look at the hours involved, undergraduate study generally amounts to at least a half-time job, while doctoral study is equivalent to a full-time job. Meanwhile the average hobbyist martial artist trains probably 2-6 hours per week.

I'll assume that the sort of person who reaches 4th dan in TKD is more dedicated than the average student, so let's say they average 6-8 hours per week with no time off. That comes out to 3640 hours over 10 years. Certainly respectable.

In comparison, let's look at someone who completes a bachelors degree in 4 years and then a PhD in another 6 years (which is the average in the U.S.. Allowing for summer vacation during undergraduate study, that comes out to about 13260 hours. Significantly more.

To be sure, there are martial artists who train full-time. Someone who trains 20-40 hours per week for 10 years is likely to have really impressive levels of skill and knowledge. (Assuming it's quality training and not just going through the motions.) But these individuals are definitely the exception.

None of this intended to pick on you or on TKD. I see people in the BJJ community doing the same thing equating the years to get a BJJ black belt with the years to get a PhD, ignoring the fact that most BJJ black belts are not full-time professionals.