When is a Master

[Gyakuto]

In terms of martial arts, I see "master" having two connotations, one referring to his organizational status and the other to his ability. There is little for discussion in regard to his official status - It is documented, ipso facto based on a certain rank, and recognized, at least among his group.

In regard to ability, I would put forth the following criteria as required to be considered a "master" of the art:

1. Has full comprehensive knowledge of the principles, background and other foundational concepts.
2. Has an extremely high ability in the technical execution of the techniques fully utilizing #1's elements.
3. Is able to execute techniques with minimum effort and thought in a natural spontaneous manner.
4. Is able to apply techniques against others utilizing tactics and able to discern the tactics of others.
5. Is able to immediately adapt techniques to handle changing circumstances.
6. Is calm and courageous in the face of opposition.

There may be a couple of other qualities others may include, but, IMO, one who possesses all these elements can be called a master of his art. This list includes qualities that address the mind, body and spirit, the master being able to unify this triad to a high degree.

‘Comprehensive’, ‘high ability’, ‘minimum effort’ etc are qualitative and entirely subjective. One associations high ability is another’s ‘meh’.

Let’s just use the art’s original word ‘shifu’, ‘sensei’ etc and not attempt translations into English as the meaning is clearly becomes distorted.

 

[Gyakuto]

Well, yeah. There's a lot of that in martial arts.
Incidentally, I have a master's degree in art history, I don't know if that counts..?

It’s not a science so it doesn’t.

 

[isshinryuronin]

One associations high ability is another’s ‘meh’.

I addressed this in my first sentence, and while I agree to some extent (and has been the topic of other posts/threads), is not really the subject of my post which is the second connotation of the word.

‘Comprehensive’, ‘high ability’, ‘minimum effort’ etc are qualitative and entirely subjective

While these words are subjective, they are not "entirely" so. Consider the following:

Wolfgang Puck and Morimoto are master chefs. Botticelli and Rembrandt were master artists. 115oF is very hot. These are not scientific conclusions, true, but few with any experience in the fields would disagree. There is a point where 90% or more of people would say, "Yeah, that's true." It's relative, in comparison to, our common body of knowledge and experience. We all know what's meant in using these terms, so why split hairs?

 

[Gyakuto]

Let’s just use the art’s original word ‘shifu’, ‘sensei’ etc and not attempt translations into English as the meaning is clearly becomes distorted.

 

[Gyakuto]

I addressed this in my first sentence, and while I agree to some extent (and has been the topic of other posts/threads), is not really the subject of my post which is the second connotation of the word.

While these words are subjective, they are not "entirely" so. Consider the following:

Wolfgang Puck and Morimoto are master chefs. Botticelli and Rembrandt were master artists. 115oF is very hot. These are not scientific conclusions, true, but few with any experience in the fields would disagree. There is a point where 90% or more of people would say, "Yeah, that's true." It's relative, in comparison to, our common body of knowledge and experience. We all know what's meant in using these terms, so why split hairs?

May I ask, are you referred to as ‘master’ by any chance?

 

[geezer]

Well, yeah. There's a lot of that in martial arts.
Incidentally, I have a master's degree in art history, I don't know if that counts..?

Naw, it sure doesn't count for much in the real world ...unless you'r going for baroque.

btw - I have and MFA in visual arts myself.

 

[Hot Lunch]

May I ask, are you referred to as ‘master’ by any chance?

It literally feels good to be a "master." At least, that's what I've heard...

 

[isshinryuronin]

May I ask, are you referred to as ‘master’ by any chance?

Seriously, I'm a bit short of the criteria I listed, not being able to give myself an "A" grade in all of them.

1. Has full comprehensive knowledge of the principles, background and other foundational concepts.
2. Has an extremely high ability in the technical execution of the techniques fully utilizing #1's elements.
3. Is able to execute techniques with minimum effort and thought in a natural spontaneous manner.
4. Is able to apply techniques against others utilizing tactics and able to discern the tactics of others.
5. Is able to immediately adapt techniques to handle changing circumstances.
6. Is calm and courageous in the face of opposition.

1. A-
2. B+ At my age, this is as good as it gets.
3. B+
4. B+
5. B Need to get in more sparring practice to fully do this. I'm a bit rusty.
6. B to A- It depends.

This is my honest self-assessment. More than competent. More than advanced. Clearly less than master. But in the interest of magnanimity, I hereby give you permission to address me as such.

 

[Hyoho]

You see different individuals calling themselves master, at what stage is it acceptable and does that affect their own Ego. You come across the arrogance then stumble across a Web page and get astonished by how some overvalue themselves. If you fancy a seminar with one for example, take out your bank loan and do it. This guy I heard say women can't do wing chun as they are not strong enough? So just let them join in for fun. Wow

My Menkyo Kaiden certification states in Japanese more or less the same as the one for Shodan (First degree/black belt): "You are now officially certified but still have lot to learn.

 

[Holmejr]

My first taste of a master came when I was around 8 years old. In our front yard, we had approx ten rose bushes that were taken care of by a Japanese gardener. He would spend a crazy amount of time making them look amazing. Each bush had the exact same size watering moat around it. Each bush was the same height and dimension as the other. Each plant manicured to perfection. Even at that young age I recognize his mastery of his craft. I didn’t know what a master was, I just knew he was set apart and only till much later did I realize who he was and what to call him.

 

[Gyakuto]

My first taste of a master came when I was around 8 years old. In our front yard, we had approx ten rose bushes that were taken care of by a Japanese gardener. He would spend a crazy amount of time making them look amazing. Each bush had the exact same size watering moat around it. Each bush was the same height and dimension as the other. Each plant manicured to perfection. Even at that young age I recognize his mastery of his craft. I didn’t know what a master was, I just knew he was set apart and only till much later did I realize who he was and what to call him.

Can you give me his number, my lawn needs a regular mowing

 

[andyjeffries]

I'll add my thoughts to this as I feel like I'm on the other side to most people discussing here.

For me "master" means more "master copy" than "master-slave". It means someone reached an experience level enough to be qualified to pass on their skills to students under their own direction (i.e. without THEIR senior watching over them teach). In Kukkiwon Taekwondo most people feel this title comes in at 4th Dan, in Korea it doesn't come in specifically until you "graduate" from the "master instructor course" (graduate feels a bit overblown for a week's course, but I guess that's a translated term).

I don't mind people calling themselves Master XYZ or introducing themselves as such, any more than I'd mind someone with a PhD calling themselves Dr XYZ. It's the appropriate title for the level of education in that field you've obtained. In Korean the term is "Sabeom" (pronounced more like "Sabuhm" then "sabe-om"), and when referring to someone else you'd add -nim to the end of it, but never for yourself.

The only time it feels weird to me introducing yourself with Master or Sabeom is when the group you're introducing yourself to is a group of other masters. Actually it feels weird if people say "I'm Sabeomnim XYZ" too, but that's because they used -nim to refer to themselves AND they put the Korean title before the name whereas in Korean it goes after the name.

The term Grandmaster in my opinion comes generally from the feeling that if a Master is capable of having their own students (like a father is capable of having their own children), then a Grandmaster has had students that got to Master level themselves (like a grandfather). About 7th/8th/9th Dan is normal for that in Taekwondo. And again, I feel no weirdness about it.

I think if other titles are acceptable for a certain level of proficiency (e.g. Dr, Pastor, etc) then it's the same here, it's only that I think the specific word "master" triggers some people with race connotations of the word. For me it doesn't trigger me (nor most of my UK-based peers), so I think it's fine.

 

[KenpoDave]

You see different individuals calling themselves master, at what stage is it acceptable and does that affect their own Ego. You come across the arrogance then stumble across a Web page and get astonished by how some overvalue themselves. If you fancy a seminar with one for example, take out your bank loan and do it. This guy I heard say women can't do wing chun as they are not strong enough? So just let them join in for fun. Wow

Back when I used to try and read all the various martial arts origin stories, I read that Wing Chun was developed by women and people of smaller stature specifically. If that is true, it is odd that a Wing Chun master would consider the art unsuitable for women.

 

[MuayJitsu]

Words and titles mean nothing. It’s what you can do that matters and if someone is that concerned about being called master it shows they’re compensating for their lack of physical abilities

 

[Gyakuto]

I don't mind people calling themselves Master XYZ or introducing themselves as such, any more than I'd mind someone with a PhD calling themselves Dr XYZ.

PhD does stand for ‘Doctor of Philosophy’ So somebody else is conferring the title upon you.

The only time it feels weird to me introducing yourself with Master or Sabeom is when the group you're introducing yourself to is a group of other masters. Actually it feels weird if people say "I'm Sabeomnim XYZ" too, but that's because they used -nim to refer to themselves AND they put the Korean title before the name whereas in Korean it goes after the name.

Yes…slightly creepy too!

I think if other titles are acceptable for a certain level of proficiency (e.g. Dr, Pastor, etc) then it's the same here,

Again those are conferred by others.

it's only that I think the specific word "master" triggers some people with race connotations of the word.

Oh crikey! I never thought of that!

For me it doesn't trigger me (nor most of my UK-based peers), so I think it's fine.

When I think of ‘master’ I think of a Latin teacher skulking around a class room demanding all conjugations with the ‘ruler of doom’ in his hand.

 

[HighKick]

For me "master" means more "master copy" than "master-slave". It means someone reached an experience level enough to be qualified to pass on their skills to students under their own direction (i.e. without THEIR senior watching over them teach). In Kukkiwon Taekwondo most people feel this title comes in at 4th Dan, in Korea it doesn't come in specifically until you "graduate" from the "master instructor course" (graduate feels a bit overblown for a week's course, but I guess that's a translated term).

"Under their own direction" is a key term here. But truth be told, it is quite common for lower ranked black belts and ever color belts to direct other students with little to no directions. Then critique and correction are brought into the teaching in a more group setting.
I do feel conflicted about the master instructor course as the defining Kukkiwon requirement. Yes, it requires the person to be 4th Dan but it does nothing to verify actual quality or proof of efficacy. I have been through it twice and have attended the program four times (to support my students going through). There is not a ton of consistency in the program IMHO. It is simply a 'pay to promote' tool, a stop gap if you will.

The term Grandmaster in my opinion comes generally from the feeling that if a Master is capable of having their own students (like a father is capable of having their own children), then a Grandmaster has had students that got to Master level themselves (like a grandfather). About 7th/8th/9th Dan is normal for that in Taekwondo. And again, I feel no weirdness about it.

This is a great definition. I do strongly feel time should be a Hard qualifier, but the physical requirements are well defined.

I think if other titles are acceptable for a certain level of proficiency (e.g. Dr, Pastor, etc) then it's the same here, it's only that I think the specific word "master" triggers some people with race connotations of the word. For me it doesn't trigger me (nor most of my UK-based peers), so I think it's fine.

While I agree with this, I also feel it should never be an assumed 'automatic' requirement. By your above definition, I am a GM, but I am seldom addressed as such, seldom even Master, and I am fine with that. As I am sure you know, Koreans hold 'title' to a higher order than most, so when I am with a group of GM's, decorum is always used.
I have a PhD (in engineering). I seldom use or mention it, never use it as a salutation, and about the only place you may see it written is in LinkedIn or in qualification letters. The latter of which I consider quite ambiguous and meaningless to identify a persons real abilities.

I am from the Sough, so I have more direct experience with this. Certainly, the term 'Master' does not hold the same negative connotations it used to, simply because it is not as prevalent, but it can still come up. Not so much as a black/white thing nowadays, but more from the 'entitled' or 'equal' mindset that is prevalent these days. It is harder to help people reconcile the "I want it and I want it now" mindset that is so counter-productive to the way most all things (including the MA's) are learned.
I fully recognize that the term master/slave can sound negative to the uninformed, but in my engineering/process control world, it is one of the most common and applicable phrases out there. People just need to recognize it for what it is, and not try to add a bunch of excess and incorrect ideas to it.

 

[Hot Lunch]

The big difference here is the use of the word "master" as a title of address.

In the US Air Force, the top 3 enlisted paygrades are collectively referred to as "Senior Non-Commissioned Officers," or SNCOs for short.

All ranks can be addressed by the full name of the rank, or "Airman" for short for E1-E4, and "Sergeant" for E5 and E6.

For the SNCO's, it's as follows

E7 - Master Sergeant, or simply "Sergeant"
E8 - Senior Master Sergeant, or simply "Senior"
E9 - Chief Master Sergeant, or simply "Chief"

Until recently, the regulations only allowed the shorter address of "Sergeant" for E8, though "Senior" had been used informally for decades, so it became official.

Are Air Force E7's EVER addressed as "Master?" The rank itself is sometimes referred to as master, but the person is never directly addressed as such outside of it being a joke or tongue-in-cheek. And I don't ever see that changing any time soon. Of note, all branches of the US military have at least one SNCO or CPO rank with the word "Master" in the name, and none are ever directly addressed as "Master."

 

[Gyakuto]

Have you seen those African nation dictators and Russian/N. Korean/Chinese generals with a chest covered in medals such that they walk in a lopsided manner? They are the equivalent of masters/grandmasters.

 

[andyjeffries]

PhD does stand for ‘Doctor of Philosophy’ So somebody else is conferring the title upon you.

Again those are conferred by others.

So when an examiner gives you a 4th Dan in Kukki-Taekwondo, they are generally conferring the title upon you.

When you pass the Kukkiwon "Master Instructor Course", the Kukkiwon organisation is conferring the title upon you. Looks like this https://www.stevenagetaekwondo.co.u...a5f5dab3d116cbfd224fbccedf35840dba539ddd6.jpg

Either way this isn't the person at some random point choosing to use the title, it came as part of some certification conferred by someone else.

 

[andyjeffries]

"Under their own direction" is a key term here. But truth be told, it is quite common for lower ranked black belts and ever color belts to direct other students with little to no directions. Then critique and correction are brought into the teaching in a more group setting.

Yeah, we definitely don't allow that in my dojang.

I do feel conflicted about the master instructor course as the defining Kukkiwon requirement. Yes, it requires the person to be 4th Dan but it does nothing to verify actual quality or proof of efficacy. I have been through it twice and have attended the program four times (to support my students going through). There is not a ton of consistency in the program IMHO. It is simply a 'pay to promote' tool, a stop gap if you will.

Out of interest, have you attended the course in Korea or elsewhere. In Korea I feel they have the best instructors available, and the course is pretty consistent (I did it twice - 3rd Class in 2013, 2nd Class in 2016 and it was pretty consistent).

Also, the physical test helps at least ensure some consistency in poomsae quality, from what I heard the courses in the US have a crazy high failure rate (but that's anecdotal)

While I agree with this, I also feel it should never be an assumed 'automatic' requirement. By your above definition, I am a GM, but I am seldom addressed as such, seldom even Master, and I am fine with that.

To be honest, I am too. I am by rank a GM, but if people call me GM, master or just Andy it's fine. I tend to use titles with my master level students (and they me) in front of students, particularly children, because it will help them have the correct decorum in front of visiting masters/guests - but I don't ever get mad if they just call me Andy

As I am sure you know, Koreans hold 'title' to a higher order than most, so when I am with a group of GM's, decorum is always used.

Indeed, my Korean is conversational level, but I've never bothered learning lots of common job titles, so I often forget (and as most of my conversations in Korean are about Taekwondo, I can stick to Sabeomnim and Kwanjangnim)

I have a PhD (in engineering). I seldom use or mention it, never use it as a salutation, and about the only place you may see it written is in LinkedIn or in qualification letters. The latter of which I consider quite ambiguous and meaningless to identify a persons real abilities.

So if you were giving a talk at a conference, would you put your Dr. title or PhD postnominals on the slide or introduce yourself as it?

I am from the Sough, so I have more direct experience with this.

I don't know if you mistyped South or that's a specific region somewhere in the world?

Certainly, the term 'Master' does not hold the same negative connotations it used to, simply because it is not as prevalent, but it can still come up. Not so much as a black/white thing nowadays, but more from the 'entitled' or 'equal' mindset that is prevalent these days. It is harder to help people reconcile the "I want it and I want it now" mindset that is so counter-productive to the way most all things (including the MA's) are learned.
I fully recognize that the term master/slave can sound negative to the uninformed, but in my engineering/process control world, it is one of the most common and applicable phrases out there. People just need to recognize it for what it is, and not try to add a bunch of excess and incorrect ideas to it.

I'm in software development and a while ago there was a big push to rename things to be more politically correct. Lots of them didn't stick and are now just back to the older ways (e.g. default Git branch, if your field of engineering is software).