When is a Master

[Xue Sheng]

"Sifu" for cabbies? May be a regional thing, or more likely, generational Language usage changes fast these days.

Anyway, here's a clip from the controversial, opinionated, and (in my opinion) entertaining Ramsey Dewey, an MMA coach in Shanghai China. It's pretty long, so for his spiel on the term "sifu" go to about 4:00 to 5:00 and listen to the last several minutes for his conclusion.

Ramsey can be pretty biased about TCMA at times, but not always. So he makes a lot of people mad. Guess I'm just a weirdo, but I like divergent opinions.

I too like Ramsey Dewey.

However what he is saying may be regional to Shanghai, there are a lot of regional differences in the Chinese language... also Shanghai is not Mandarin, it is Shanghainese (Shanghai dialect). No one in Beijing would call a cab driver shifu..... and in mandarin shifu does not mean sir. Sir in mandarin is (先生) Xiānshēng... and I have never heard a cab driver in Beijing called Xiānshēng either. So Ramsey may be correct in Shanghai, but he is wrong in Beijing. Also I doubt he is correct in Guangzhau or Hong Kong (Cantonese), and I might be there next summer so I'll see what they call cabdrivers. He is also not correct in Heilongjiang

 

[Buka]

My uncle Roosevelt was a cab driver his entire adult life. He’d probably get a kick out of this thread.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My uncle Roosevelt was a cab driver his entire adult life. He’d probably get a kick out of this thread.

No he wouldn't, we just wouldn't call him Shifu...... also I did not hear Xiānshēng said once in Beijing, but then I didn't hear Shifu either

 

[geezer]

No he wouldn't, we just wouldn't call him Shifu...... also I did not hear Xiānshēng said once in Beijing, but then I didn't hear Shifu either

OK, so if a very skilled and experienced Chinese cabby starts a school for young cabbies teaching his system of defensive driving, then could his students call him sifu/shifu??? ...and would the even older cabbie who trained him be referred to as si-gung in their system of cab-fu?

How does it work in Xue-fu?

 

[drop bear]

My impression was master was the highest exponent of a style.

 

[Gyakuto]

The term ‘master’ (like claiming to be ‘eccentric’, ‘crazy’ or ‘hilarious’) is one that must be bestowed by others. Self-proclamation of this title borders, at the very least, upon arrogance and is self-aggrandising. For someone to suggest they have mastered their art shows they have no idea about asymptotic nature of learning. I agree with drop bear that it should be reserved for the top person in an art’s lineage.

Teacher is perfectly adequate for everyone else.

 

[HighKick]

The term ‘master’ (like claiming to be ‘eccentric’, ‘crazy’ or ‘hilarious’) is one that must be bestowed by others. Self-proclamation of this title borders, at the very least, upon arrogance and is self-aggrandising. For someone to suggest they have mastered their art shows they have no idea about asymptotic nature of learning. I agree with drop bear that it should be reserved for the top person in an art’s lineage.

Teacher is perfectly adequate for everyone else.

Agree. When the title is over-used or used incorrectly, it quickly lessens the value and purpose of the title. It would be similar to how the titles of supervisor, lead-man/woman, foreman, etc... have all but disappeared. Job recruiters and headhunters call everyone position a manager or even director nowadays, completely screwing up any kind of organizational structure and severely inflating a persons understanding of their value or purpose to a company or work environment.
Bad Juju.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK, so if a very skilled and experienced Chinese cabby starts a school for young cabbies teaching his system of defensive driving, then could his students call him sifu/shifu??? ...and would the even older cabbie who trained him be referred to as si-gung in their system of cab-fu?

How does it work in Xue-fu?

It is possible, but folks do not get into cabs in Beijing and call the guy shifu/sifu

as far as the older... if Cabbie 1, taught Cabie 2, and cabbie 2 taught cabbie 3 then cabbie 3 could possibly call cabbie 1 sigung./shigung..... but the whole thing is based on teaching a skill, like cooking, martial arts, wood working, brick laying, etc. Never heard cab driver involved in that...possibly truck drivers...,. but this is all moot because Beijing is working on driverless cars and cab drivers could go the way of the dodo.... and let me tell you, one of the cabs I rode in that guy MAY have been the shifu of inducing car sickness with his speed up and slow down constantly technique..... far as Xuefu..... I am lord high omnipotent grandmaster shifu, sensei, shigung of Xuefu...and @Flying Crane is the Vice High Ruler shifu, sensei master of Xuefu west.....

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You see different individuals calling themselves master, at what stage is it acceptable and does that affect their own Ego. You come across the arrogance then stumble across a Web page and get astonished by how some overvalue themselves. If you fancy a seminar with one for example, take out your bank loan and do it. This guy I heard say women can't do wing chun as they are not strong enough? So just let them join in for fun. Wow

People should not call themselves master. Other people call them that.
Same for sensei, grandmaster, etc.

It's a term of honor. One does not bestow honors on oneself.

My sensei is a 9th Dan. Others outside our dojo often call him master or grandmaster. He prefers sensei and all his students call him sensei. But he doesn't call himself sensei.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

"Mastery implies no further room for improvement, you can keep it"- a quote I remember from a MAPper from whom I owe what emotional maturity, if any, I possess

 

[geezer]

"Mastery implies no further room for improvement, you can keep it"- a quote I remember from a MAPper from whom I owe what emotional maturity, if any, I possess

I agree that the idea that there is "no further room for improvement" is counterproductive. In any skill there are levels of mastery. When you have "mastered" the basics, you are ready to move on. And yet, as you continue learning, your understanding of the basics should improve. "Mastery" implies competence, not perfection.

Maybe this is why the English language has so many adjectives to modify and describe mastery such as, "a basic level of mastery, a solid mastery, a high degree of mastery, and so forth. Or, why, in the martial arts you commonly hear people say things like,"the black belt is just the starting point".

 

[Hot Lunch]

Definition of MASTER

a male teacher; a person holding an academic degree higher than a bachelor's but lower than a doctor's; also : the degree itself; a revered religious leader… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

master​

1 of 3

noun​

mas·ter ˈma-stər

pluralmasters
Synonyms of master
1
a(1)
: a male teacher
(2)
: a person holding an academic degree higher than a bachelor's but lower than a doctor's
also : the degree itself
b
often capitalized : a revered religious leader

Hence why I used the word "cultish."

c
: a worker or artisan qualified to teach apprentices compare APPRENTICE entry 1 sense 1b, JOURNEYMAN sense 1
d(1)
: an artist, performer, or player of consummate (see CONSUMMATE entry 1 sense 1) skill

In other words, "master" doesn't imply that such a person has nothing left to learn.

(2)
: a great figure of the past (as in science or art) whose work serves as a model or ideal

As I said before, this is the ONLY way I'd ever use the word.

2
a
: one having authority over another : RULER, GOVERNOR
This decisive battle left him master of Europe.

b
: one that conquers or masters : VICTOR, SUPERIOR
in the new challenger the champion found his master

c
: a person licensed to command a merchant ship
d
: one having control
proved himself master of the situation

e
: an owner especially of an animal
f
: the employer especially of a servant
g
: a person who holds another person in slavery
h(1)
dialect : HUSBAND
(2)
: the male head of a household

And what's in bold here is why we don't just go throwing the word "master" around.

 

[Gyakuto]

It's a term of honor. One does not bestow honors on oneself.

‘Honours and bestowments are the shackles of servitude’

 

[Gyakuto]

I agree that the idea that there is "no further room for improvement" is counterproductive. In any skill there are levels of mastery. When you have "mastered" the basics, you are ready to move on.

But the point is one never masters the basics. There are always nuances and other ideas that inform the techniques.

And yet, as you continue learning, your understanding of the basics should improve.

It’s an asymptotic curve, reaching ‘perfection’ at infinity.

"Mastery" implies competence, not perfection.

Maybe this is why the English language has so many adjectives to modify and describe mastery such as, "a basic level of mastery, a solid mastery, a high degree of mastery, and so forth. Or, why, in the martial arts you commonly hear people say things like,"the black belt is just the starting point".

I suppose the word mastery in your above example would be better served by the word ‘competence’. ‘a basic level of competence, solid competence or a high degree of competence.’ But people don’t like competence because to them it’s mistakenly synonymous with ‘average’ or ‘will do’ and nobody likes being called average!

 

[geezer]

But the point is one never masters the basics. There are always nuances and other ideas that inform the techniques.
It’s an asymptotic curve, reaching ‘perfection’ at infinity.

Asymptotic curve??? That's a new one for me! But I agree with your point ...er ....curve!

Description​

In the differential geometry of surfaces, an asymptotic curve is a curve always tangent to an asymptotic direction of the surface. It is sometimes called an asymptotic line, although it need not be a line. Wikipedia

 

[Gyakuto]

Asymptotic curve??? That's a new one for me! But I agree with your point ...er ....curve!

View attachment 31357

Description​

In the differential geometry of surfaces, an asymptotic curve is a curve always tangent to an asymptotic direction of the surface. It is sometimes called an asymptotic line, although it need not be a line. Wikipedia

Yes it just means the line tends toward the final value but only ever gets their at infinity!

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I suppose it's a bit like the continuum between beginner, intermediate and avanced posited by Mark Rippetoe as regards strength training. Perhaps 'advanced' is a better term than 'master'?

 

[isshinryuronin]

"Master" in my mind, goes way above "competence." IMO, any black belt should have this. Even "advanced" falls short.

In terms of martial arts, I see "master" having two connotations, one referring to his organizational status and the other to his ability. There is little for discussion in regard to his official status - It is documented, ipso facto based on a certain rank, and recognized, at least among his group.

In regard to ability, I would put forth the following criteria as required to be considered a "master" of the art:

1. Has full comprehensive knowledge of the principles, background and other foundational concepts.
2. Has an extremely high ability in the technical execution of the techniques fully utilizing #1's elements.
3. Is able to execute techniques with minimum effort and thought in a natural spontaneous manner.
4. Is able to apply techniques against others utilizing tactics and able to discern the tactics of others.
5. Is able to immediately adapt techniques to handle changing circumstances.
6. Is calm and courageous in the face of opposition.

There may be a couple of other qualities others may include, but, IMO, one who possesses all these elements can be called a master of his art. This list includes qualities that address the mind, body and spirit, the master being able to unify this triad to a high degree.

 

[Gyakuto]

Let’s face it, many like the term ‘master’ because it makes them feel special and it lends them kudos that potentially translates into more students and hence income.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Well, yeah. There's a lot of that in martial arts.
Incidentally, I have a master's degree in art history, I don't know if that counts..?