Whats going on in Professional MMA?

[Tanaka]

Lately it has just seemed like Kickboxing with the ability to grapple. I used to enjoy watching MMA, but nowaday it seems like everyone wants to do the same thing. I see fighters with excellent grappling background, not using it at all and preferring to go for a knockout while boxing. And they end up losing because they were not as good at striking as the other guy. When at the times the fight ended up on the ground they were winning immensely, yet did not take advantage of it. And proceeded to try and out strike the guy. Whats going on with that? Why don't they use the area they are better in to win? With this I have largely lost interest in watching professional MMA and slowly MMA altogether. I decided to give it one more go and watch UFC 133 since I saw Yoshihiro was fighting. Only to be disappointed immensely again. Whats happening here?

 

[MJS]

Lately it has just seemed like Kickboxing with the ability to grapple. I used to enjoy watching MMA, but nowaday it seems like everyone wants to do the same thing. I see fighters with excellent grappling background, not using it at all and preferring to go for a knockout while boxing. And they end up losing because they were not as good at striking as the other guy. When at the times the fight ended up on the ground they were winning immensely, yet did not take advantage of it. And proceeded to try and out strike the guy. Whats going on with that? Why don't they use the area they are better in to win? With this I have largely lost interest in watching professional MMA and slowly MMA altogether. I decided to give it one more go and watch UFC 133 since I saw Yoshihiro was fighting. Only to be disappointed immensely again. Whats happening here?

I'd say its just a change of the times. Lets look at the progression, as we see it today: In the beginning, we had, really, only 1 serious grappler...Royce. Everyone else was a standup fighter, with little to no ground game. Yes, we saw guys like Ken Shamrock, but back in the early days, Royce was the main grappler.

Over time, we saw wrestlers enter the game. Guys like Mark Coleman and Kerr, guys with great takedown ability, but lacking in the submission dept. Over time, those guys added subs. to their game.

We saw guys with a strong stand up game, such as Maurice Smith, Marco Ruas, Chuck Liddell, and now Lyoto Machida. Sure, these guys could grapple, but Mo and Chuck primarily stand up. Mo worked extensively with Frank Shamrock, learning enough about the ground to survive and frustrate the grappler, until they could get back to their feet. We saw this work very well with Mo Smith vs. Mark Coleman.

So, now, we see more stand up guys, fights being finished with a KO/TKO vs. a armbar or leglock or choke. Not saying those still dont happen, but we see more standup. Look at when Royce re-entered the ring against Matt Hughes. He was totally out of his game due to the striking of Matt.

I may be wrong in saying this, but it seems like alot of todays fighters have more of a strong stand up game, with enough ground to survive. I'd say they have more of a defensive ground game, like we see with Chuck. That said, unless we see someone with a very strong ground game, in addition to striking, who'd be capable of taking down, keeping down and submitting the stand up guy, I think stand up is the way of the future. Keep in mind also, with the rule changes, you now have time limits to deal with, as well as the risk of being stood up, if you're inactive on the ground for too long.

 

[OzPaul]

as well as the risk of being stood up, if you're inactive on the ground for too long.

This is what i was going to say. Due to the increase in skill level of guys on the ground now unless someone is badly hurt or fatigued it is becoming harder for guys with a good grappling base to win that way. At the moment there is also a few guys who are great at BJJ but have no take down skills (George Sotiropolous vs. Denis Siver for example) so they are unable to get the fight to where they would like it. There is also wrestlers who can take anyone down but as soon as they do they just "lay and pray" on the opponent and then there is the good strikers who can't get into a good rhythm because they can't get a good base for fear of getting taken down. What i have noticed the most since i have watched MMA though is that different styles of fighting are slowly disappearing and all we have are guys who can wrestle, survive off their back and who have average striking. Gone are the days when you had a pure grappler vs boxer or judo vs karate but then again most people who compete in MMA have no desire to learn about a "traditional" martial art anyway. So for now we have the "MMA" fighter but I'm sure it will turn full circle and new exciting fighters will appear.

 

[Cyriacus]

I actually kind of like this, but as a long time MMA Viewer, allow me to explain why.

Simply, because MMA =/= Mixed Martial Arts. NOT Brazilian Jiu Jitsu with Punches Kicks Elbows and Knees from time to time. And there was so much Grappling, that at times it could be hard to tell the difference.*
Now at the same time, MMA =/= Kickboxing. NOT Kickboxing with Grappling.
So how could you possibly balance this?
Easy.
Remember back in the days of Boxing VS Karate? Pretty much that logic. If you pair Strikers with Grapplers, one of them will be out of their league. The Grappler could be completely overwhelmed by the Striker, or the Striker might make a mistake and be put at a disadvantage.

Therefore, Blend Strikers with Grapplers as infrequently as possible. But pair different style Strikers together, and different style Grapplers together. This may seem unusual, but it would only be temporary, for a couple of years. MMA, as it is, mostly due to Gracie and others, has been Wrestling with Striking, for the most part. And i can see how it would be unusual for it to become any other way*. But times they are changing.
As an example of a good blend, Kickboxing and Muay Thai. Or BJJ and Judo.
Im interested to here what anyone thinks of this concept, but i think it makes a reasonable amount of sense.

*I know, there are frequent Striking KOs and the like in MMA. But almost all Bouts had a Ground Game.

 

[Tanaka]

I actually thought about some of the points that have been made. But you have all these guys that excel at grappling trying to out strike people who are obvious better strikers. Like "Jake Shields" for instance... Hes a well known good grappler. When he fought St Pierre he didn't use any grappling from what I recall, he just stood and fought like a kickboxer. Against someone who was obviously much better at it. To my knowledge you can get points for takedowns and dominating a fight. Even if you don't get the "submission." Even for myself if I cannot get a joint lock or choke while sparring. I will use my dominate positioning and skills in maintaining dominate position to strike them until their mind is off guarding what I need to do. And possibly they could just go ahead and ground and pound.

Then another instance I would like to use is Akiyama in his fight against Belfort. Not really a spoiler, but during the fight he was trying to stand up while Belfort was over him throwing punches. Now in my school in which we learn Judo newaza and train at camps with Judoka. We are taught that once we are knocked to the ground. We don't just get up... we go ahead and fight from our back UNTIL(Safely) we can get to our feet. Using our feet to push them away, kick them, or sweep them. But Akiyama whom is an excellent grapper which is proven through his Olympic history. Tried to stand right back up into the fire, which is the opposite of what he should of been taught/learned in his Judo years. It's like all he wanted to do was get to his feet and fight that way instead of going ahead and fighting from the ground. If Werdum would of tried that when that happened to him against Fedor; I'm pretty sure he would of not got that nice triangle choke.

Another thing is... I'm noticing this behavior mostly from UFC.
In Bellator, Strikeforce, and etc. I still see good grapplers and people using their diverse arts.(Pretty much using their strengths to their advantages)

 

[Steve]

I think this entire thread is based on some pretty sketchy assumptions. Since 2000, the submission rate in major MMA events such as the UFC are consistently between 20 and 25%. This is through the wrestling phase, the G&P phase, the lay-n-pray phase, the boxing phase. It's always 20 to 25%. Which happens to be about the same percentage of fights that are ended via KO/TKO. Most fights go to a decision. So, forgive me, but I'm not sure I can agree with the premise that grappling is on a decline.

Another thing to consider is that EVERYONE in the UFC and the other top level events is a competent grappler AND a competent striker. This is particularly true for those athletes at the top of their sport, such as GSP. To suggest that Fitch has an advantage in grappling is a huge assumption. GSP trains with the Canadian Olympic wrestling team. He's a BJJ black belt, and he has arguably the best single/double leg takedown in the sport. He changes levels and shoots so deep, he takes everyone down.

 

[Lee Mainprize]

Maybe grappling skills are becoming more equal and cancelling each other out. I see this and guys like GSP and Dos Santos have gained a big advantage with proper Boxing.

Maybe fighters and promoters realise that knockouts are what people want to see and their going to make more money being more entertaining.

I think its all good and just the next phase in mma evolution.

 

[MJS]

This is what i was going to say. Due to the increase in skill level of guys on the ground now unless someone is badly hurt or fatigued it is becoming harder for guys with a good grappling base to win that way. At the moment there is also a few guys who are great at BJJ but have no take down skills (George Sotiropolous vs. Denis Siver for example) so they are unable to get the fight to where they would like it. There is also wrestlers who can take anyone down but as soon as they do they just "lay and pray" on the opponent and then there is the good strikers who can't get into a good rhythm because they can't get a good base for fear of getting taken down. What i have noticed the most since i have watched MMA though is that different styles of fighting are slowly disappearing and all we have are guys who can wrestle, survive off their back and who have average striking. Gone are the days when you had a pure grappler vs boxer or judo vs karate but then again most people who compete in MMA have no desire to learn about a "traditional" martial art anyway. So for now we have the "MMA" fighter but I'm sure it will turn full circle and new exciting fighters will appear.

I have to wonder....if the UFC was still on the same path Rorion intended it, meaning the 1 purist vs another, how exciting would it be? I mean yeah, it was exciting, to me anyways, in the early days, but come on....after a while, I'd imagine people would get tired of seeing the same stuff. Only reason I say this, is because thats what we were seeing....a grappler, who'd dominate a striker, because the striker had no ground game. Well of course not...he was a purist. OTOH, I'm wondering if a striker with much more skill, than what we used to see, entered, he may be able to use enough counter grappling, avoid the takedown, and dominate with strikes.

 

[Steve]

My opinion is that you guys are overthinking things. MMA is the same as any other sport. The person or team who can impose their gameplan will usually win.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I actually thought about some of the points that have been made. But you have all these guys that excel at grappling trying to out strike people who are obvious better strikers. Like "Jake Shields" for instance... Hes a well known good grappler. When he fought St Pierre he didn't use any grappling from what I recall, he just stood and fought like a kickboxer. Against someone who was obviously much better at it. To my knowledge you can get points for takedowns and dominating a fight. Even if you don't get the "submission." Even for myself if I cannot get a joint lock or choke while sparring. I will use my dominate positioning and skills in maintaining dominate position to strike them until their mind is off guarding what I need to do. And possibly they could just go ahead and ground and pound.

Then another instance I would like to use is Akiyama in his fight against Belfort. Not really a spoiler, but during the fight he was trying to stand up while Belfort was over him throwing punches. Now in my school in which we learn Judo newaza and train at camps with Judoka. We are taught that once we are knocked to the ground. We don't just get up... we go ahead and fight from our back UNTIL(Safely) we can get to our feet. Using our feet to push them away, kick them, or sweep them. But Akiyama whom is an excellent grapper which is proven through his Olympic history. Tried to stand right back up into the fire, which is the opposite of what he should of been taught/learned in his Judo years. It's like all he wanted to do was get to his feet and fight that way instead of going ahead and fighting from the ground. If Werdum would of tried that when that happened to him against Fedor; I'm pretty sure he would of not got that nice triangle choke.

Another thing is... I'm noticing this behavior mostly from UFC.
In Bellator, Strikeforce, and etc. I still see good grapplers and people using their diverse arts.(Pretty much using their strengths to their advantages)

That's because he didn't have a chance in hell at taking GSP down. Shields had no business in that fight IMO, I don't think his BJJ was even any better than GSP's.

 

[punisher73]

That's because he didn't have a chance in hell at taking GSP down. Shields had no business in that fight IMO, I don't think his BJJ was even any better than GSP's.

Beat me to it. Usually when you see something like this (Shields "trading" with GSP) it is because the other fighter is so good at controlling the fight they don't have a choice. GSP in that fight controlled the range and stuffed almost all of Shield's takedown attempts.

The days of "style vs. style" are pretty much over. This next generation of fighters will be even more seemless because they will be training all areas at the same time. You will still have preferences of stand up vs. grappling. But, as time goes on you will not see as many kickboxers that added grappling or wrestlers/grapplers that add striking.

As far as more stand up fighting, the rule changes have helped bring that about. It used to be fighters would "lay and pray" and it would be a very boring fight while one person would get a takedown and then hold the other fighter and not advance his position or try to end the fight. Matt Hughes was criticized for this alot of the time, he would get and hold side control and then throw and occasional elbow and play it safe to get the decision. The new rules end this type of fight which means your ground game has to be top notch. So even if you have two top grapplers that are almost even, they will cancel each other out on the ground many times and get stood back up, which means you are going to have to out strike to win.