What the hell is Enlightenment!?

[TieXiongJi]

Nope, I wasn't referring to the uniform. I have seen it with both spellings. Pronounced, it sounds to me more like our English 'G' sound than our hard 'K' sound. But I guess that is just me. Regardless, this is the second or third time I have been called to task on this. Maybe I just need to start using Ki instead of Gi here on MT.

In Japanese, it is 'Ki' (pronounced the same as 'Key')
In Chinese, it is 'Qi' (pronounced the same a the first syllable of 'Chea-ter'
Another topic of interpretation. Some say it is equivalent to 'air' as you can't survive or perform any tasks without it. So qi/ki/air is essential to life.
Others go metaphysical on the matter, but I disagree with many interpretations due to my own experience.

 

[TieXiongJi]

For you perhaps. Are you sure it is so for everyone?

I would suggest you think that through some more.

I approach all topics trying to understand them as much as possible.
When I bring up 'Enlightenment', I want to talk about that. If people dance around and say it is ineffable (like God, religion...), then I can't have a conversation with you as you have given up on investigation and understanding.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I approach all topics trying to understand them as much as possible.
When I bring up 'Enlightenment', I want to talk about that. If people dance around and say it is ineffable (like God, religion...), then I can't have a conversation with you as you have given up on investigation and understanding.

Or perhaps enlightenment hides itself within the grasp of the person who no longer stretches forth his hand.

 

[TieXiongJi]

You kill it to eat it. Hunting enlightenment may kill it, too.

(Sounds cool, anyway.)

We approach all goals with different methods. Hunting game requires a set of skills and understanding if you hope to succeed.
Hunting enlightenment requires a different set of skills and very similar methods of getting to understanding.
To understand any truth, we must start from something true. Starting from a falsity can get you there, but the lie quickly undermines the truth.

 

[TieXiongJi]

I have no idea what enlightenment is. I only know about the Path, and only that in a very, very, limited way.

Personally, I would be wary of anyone who claimed to have achieved enlightenment.

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

If no one has ever found it, then I guess we all have to keep searching. Jus

Enlightenment is internal. I think it cannot be explained to another without some shared enlightenment. By that, I mean that there is not one enlightenment, but many areas in which one can be enlightened. If you share an area with someone (both having been enlightened in that area), then you have a common language of enlightenment from which to discuss the topic. If two people both understand enlightenment in many areas, they may be able to discuss it without a single shared area of enlightenment.

Every personal experience is internal. Your own love for anything else is completely internal, but it is as real to you as the skin on your body.
We can share our enlightenment on Martial Arts through these forums, Science through other forums.
Explaining your ideas to another person starts from a basic understanding or common idea. If we can't agree on what we are seeking, we definitely won't find it as a team.
Enlightenment could simply be Understanding and we are spinning our wheels discussing the topic any further.

 

[TieXiongJi]

A close friend of mine is Buddhist. Not your average guy who suddenly becomes a Buddhist, he spent seven years of his life in a Buddhist Monastery (is that the right word?) in Japan for seven years. So I e-mailed him, asked him how he would define "enlightenment".

His immediate response was En-lighten-ment: "to lighten up" ;-)"

I laughed and asked if it could actually be defined. His response was -

not sure about defining it, but here are some possible signs:

12 Signs of a Spiritual Awakening

An increased tendency to let things happen rather than make them happen.

Frequent attacks of smiling.

Feelings of being connected with others and nature.

Frequent overwhelming episodes of appreciation.

A tendency to think and act spontaneously rather than from fears based on past experience.

An unmistakable ability to enjoy each moment.

A loss of ability to worry.

A loss of interest in conflict.

A loss of interest in interpreting the actions of others.

A loss of interest in judging others.

A loss of interest in judging self.

Gaining the ability to love without expecting anything in return.

I think he might be on to something there.

Well ****...
I feel like these 12 signs are very accurate since I reached my epiphany a few months ago. Once I truly understood that we are all 1, my appreciation of everything drastically improved. I want to understand other people instead of judging them. I am persistently happy and joyful.
I do disagree with the first point as I would say improving the world requires one to make things happen. Letting things happen got us Global Warming and Trump...

 

[TieXiongJi]

It is.

I don't think it can really be mapped or explained in straight-forward terms. It is something that some people simply come to understand thru their life experiences and perhaps their own personality contributes.

Now we understand each other.
Thank you for not quitting the conversation.

 

[Steve]

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If no one has ever found it, then I guess we all have to keep searching. Jus

I did not say no one has ever found enlightenment. I said I would be wary of anyone who made the claim.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We approach all goals with different methods. Hunting game requires a set of skills and understanding if you hope to succeed.
Hunting enlightenment requires a different set of skills and very similar methods of getting to understanding.
To understand any truth, we must start from something true. Starting from a falsity can get you there, but the lie quickly undermines the truth.

My point is that enlightenment, as I see it, escapes intellectual pursuit. Intellect applied to it appears to make it harder to reach. That's not to say you can't be intellectual and find enlightenment, but defining and categorizing (elements of intellect) bring us further from enlightenment. Thus, hunting may be an appropriate analogy for what you're doing, and may also be part of the frustration.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If no one has ever found it, then I guess we all have to keep searching. Jus


Every personal experience is internal. Your own love for anything else is completely internal, but it is as real to you as the skin on your body.
We can share our enlightenment on Martial Arts through these forums, Science through other forums.
Explaining your ideas to another person starts from a basic understanding or common idea. If we can't agree on what we are seeking, we definitely won't find it as a team.
Enlightenment could simply be Understanding and we are spinning our wheels discussing the topic any further.

Ah, I see here you appear to be defining "enlightenment" to include things like mastery and understanding. I see those things as external to enlightenment. Not counter to it, but simply not part of it.

 

[TieXiongJi]

Ah, I see here you appear to be defining "enlightenment" to include things like mastery and understanding. I see those things as external to enlightenment. Not counter to it, but simply not part of it.

My mother took me to her church a while ago.
The people I spoke with told me, "You are a seeker."
I thought to myself, "Great, that is my never ending endeavor." We must constantly seek truth or we will believe lies.
The only word to truly define 'enlightenment' is 'enlightenment'. Now we must define the details that make up the concept 'enlightenment' to be able to understand it.
Everything within existence has a fundamental base. Understanding everything starting from the most fundamental base is the only way to climb to the top and be able to say to yourself, "Now, I understand this."

 

[hoshin1600]

I feel like these 12 signs are very accurate since I reached my epiphany a few months ago.

I thought I had an epiphany once....turned out it was just gas.

 

[hoshin1600]

The only word to truly define 'enlightenment' is 'enlightenment'.

Um...no actually even enlightenment doesn't define enlightenment. The actual word is sanskrit, bodhi or you could use satori in Japanese. Enlightenment is an English word with multiple meanings. Different meanings to Different people.

 

[TieXiongJi]

I just want to thank everyone for addressing this conversation seriously. My friends have trouble simply starting these types of conversations.
So thank you for giving me a place to have a back and forth about this. I feel I found enlightenment through the sum of all experiences, but martial arts and the concepts broached through training, practice and lectures really pushed me over the top.

 

[TieXiongJi]

Um...no actually even enlightenment doesn't define enlightenment. The actual word is sanskrit, bodhi or you could use satori in Japanese. Enlightenment is an English word with multiple meanings. Different meanings to Different people.

Well that is true with all language. We use words to convey ideas. The focus is the meaning of 'enlightenment', not the first word used to describe it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Now we understand each other.
Thank you for not quitting the conversation.

Sometimes we do tend to poke a little fun at times, it seems to be necessary sometimes around here. But that doesn't mean we aren't also seriously engaging the discussion.

Astro-physics tells us that, as Carl Sagan said so eloquently, "we are all star-stuff".

Every atom and particle that makes up ourselves and everything that we see and touch and know in the world and the universe, has been recycled over and over in the lives and deaths of countless stars in the universe. the first stars were born out of hydrogen and helium and trace amounts of lithium, and nothing else. All other element were created by nuclear fusion within those stars, and in the deaths of stars. Including the material, carbon, which is a fundamental building block of you and I.

To me, understanding and recognizing that all things are thus connected to all things in the vastness of the universe, is something akin to enlightenment. Your atoms and my atoms shared a past life in the depths of a star somewhere, long ago.

I know that is not what you are getting at, but in some ways it seems to me that there may be a link there.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Well ****...
I feel like these 12 signs are very accurate since I reached my epiphany a few months ago. Once I truly understood that we are all 1, my appreciation of everything drastically improved. I want to understand other people instead of judging them. I am persistently happy and joyful.

"...once I reached my epiphany..."

I have said I don't know much about enlightenment. But I suspect it doesn't have a lot to do with looking in mirrors. With respect.

 

[TieXiongJi]

Sometimes we do tend to poke a little fun at times, it seems to be necessary sometimes around here. But that doesn't mean we aren't also seriously engaging the discussion.

Astro-physics tells us that, as Carl Sagan said so eloquently, "we are all star-stuff".

Every atom and particle that makes up ourselves and everything that we see and touch and know in the world and the universe, has been recycled over and over in the lives and deaths of countless stars in the universe. the first stars were born out of hydrogen and helium and trace amounts of lithium, and nothing else. All other element were created by nuclear fusion within those stars, and in the deaths of stars. Including the material, carbon, which is a fundamental building block of you and I.

To me, understanding and recognizing that all things are thus connected to all things in the vastness of the universe, is something akin to enlightenment. Your atoms and my atoms shared a past life in the depths of a star somewhere, long ago.

I know that is not what you are getting at, but in some ways it seems to me that there may be a link there.

That is a big part of what enlightenment means to me. I know that everything around me contributes to existence.
We are all the same and different because reality exists between the binary; 1 (success/perfection) and 0 (failure/folly). Once I 'got it', I was able to understand the dynamic interplay within a system and between multiple systems. It is incredibly difficult to explain other than through long, detailed explanations of the system(s).

 

[TieXiongJi]

"...once I reached my epiphany..."

I have said I don't know much about enlightenment. But I suspect it doesn't have a lot to do with looking in mirrors. With respect.

I agree. Digging deep within yourself helps you understand yourself and a bit about others, but gathering as many true facts about existence allows one to see the tapestry or to use an old phrase, see the forest for the trees and the trees within the forest.