What the hell is Enlightenment!?

[hoshin1600]

That was really well done. I would have believed that Chris Parker had made this post if no name were attached to it. You captured his style remarkably well.

well he has a style thats for sure. lol been on the receiving end a few times myself. always fun, like a cranial enema.

 

[jks9199]

Perhaps the whole problem is that you're hunting it...

 

[TieXiongJi]

Thanks for the response!
I will respond in turn.

do i have to repeat my last two statements again?
by reading your post i will have to assume your knowledge of the subject would be no more insightfull then my postman.

Why would your postman not have a good understanding of enlightenment? Have you asked any of them?

You mentioned that my personal experience is irrelevant to understanding Enlightenment. I do not see the connection as everything that you have experienced is the sum of you. How can you move forward without everything that happened before?
The sum of my experience has led me to many realizations and all I was trying to do was convey some pathways to understanding that I have traversed.

so the way i read this statement is that you have the answer and if we"dont understand what your saying with your "formula statement " then you need to explain it to us.

I am attempting to put the whole experience into words and you saying that I won't listen is very presumptuous. I want to know more as I seek knowledge everyday.

so i will give you my official Zen Answer and you can explain it ....
"outside, waves crash on a rocky shore. Inside the moon reflects on still waters"
"Above not a tile to shield my head. Below not an inch to place a step"

when you aim at the target with the mind you miss it all the more. You cannot use your mind to understand and regulate your mind. would you not need two? Do not tell me what you think "IT" is show me !!! Show me your original mind!!!! IF you cannot then you have missed the target. The way to enlightenment is not thru the four noble truths or the eight fold path, if you find the Buddha by the side of the road ....KILL HIM!!!!
Sit grasshopper Sit. be still ...watch the breath and dont look ,, dont search. thinking leads to confusion
Philosophy ha ha...." i think.. therefor i am confused"

That is some interesting poetry. The first lines seem Buddhist; similar to the idea of nothingness or no truth to be found in the world.
What does that mean to you?

The second piece is somewhat ridiculous. How else do we understand our mind other than examining it like we are experiencing it from another viewpoint. We analyze the people around us based on their actions, their words. I am only able to analyze and understand another by analyzing and understanding myself.
I love the old phrase, "If you find Buddha by the side of the road...KILL HIM!!!" IMO, never stop seeking. There is always another plateau to reach, another concept to understand.
And the philosophy line, LOL. DeCartes may be confused, but he is thought, expressed himself, died and is as immortal as any of us could be through writing and thought.
We must never quit thinking and exploring for that is the end of thought.

Again, thanks for keeping the conversation going.

 

[TieXiongJi]

Perhaps the whole problem is that you're hunting it...

How would you eat the deer without hunting first?

 

[hoshin1600]

How would you eat the deer without hunting first?

Not only have you missed the target but you left your bow and arrow at home.

 

[TieXiongJi]

Not only have you missed the target but you left your bow and arrow at home.

Guess I have to practice my archery and make a proper carrying case.

 

[hoshin1600]

Guess I have to practice my archery and make a proper carrying case.

my phone is dying but I'll start to use western thought.
Your trying to intellectually understand something like love. You can't do it that way. Only through direct experience can you actually "know" what love or enlightenment is. To talk about how a tree grows doesn't help the tree at all.
Your life experiences have no impact on this. Only direct experience with the guidance of an actual teacher can lead you there. In this way enlightenment is the same as martial arts, unless you are studying with an actual teacher are you going to get there. Otherwise your just pretending

 

[TieXiongJi]

my phone is dying but I'll start to use western thought.
Your trying to intellectually understand something like love. You can't do it that way. Only through direct experience can you actually "know" what love or enlightenment is. To talk about how a tree grows doesn't help the tree at all.
Your life experiences have no impact on this. Only direct experience with the guidance of an actual teacher can lead you there. In this way enlightenment is the same as martial arts, unless you are studying with an actual teacher are you going to get there. Otherwise your just pretending

So you are saying Enlightenment is something to discover, but only with the right teacher.

Who taught you about Enlightenment? Did you ever feel like you found enlightenment? If yes, how long did it take? Any notes on the path you took?

 

[oaktree]

If you are asking for what enlightenment is you are not looking within, you are seeking something concrete, a definitive answer and I can only point you to it you have to open your eyes to see it. Any way that is a Buddhist priest answer to your question.

 

[Flying Crane]

So you are saying Enlightenment is something to discover, but only with the right teacher.

Who taught you about Enlightenment? Did you ever feel like you found enlightenment? If yes, how long did it take? Any notes on the path you took?

Look under your mattress. You might have left it there.

 

[Steve]

Trying to be a little serious here, my confusion with this thread is that it's an attempt to discuss something that is inherently internal. I don't know a ton about Buddhism, but what I've seen suggests that the path to enlightenment is largely solitary and introspective.

So, bringing it up with a bunch of strangers on a message board is strangely incongruous.

 

[hoshin1600]

So you are saying Enlightenment is something to discover, but only with the right teacher.

Who taught you about Enlightenment? Did you ever feel like you found enlightenment? If yes, how long did it take? Any notes on the path you took?

ill answer the second question first.. Hosakawa Roshi, Diahonzen Chozen JI, Rinzai Zen. The rest is irrelevant.

For the Asian thought process enlightenment just is. The experience is what it is. But for western thought the we separate the experience from the process from the actual scientific explanation.
thats why i asked what answer you would like.
my simple western answer is this. the science is that there is a re wiring of the brain. the practice is a process of immersion. without the process you will get nowhere. you cant intellectually learn it. the immersion process re wires the brain pathways and how the brain functions. enlightenment by its very nature short circuits any attempt of rational intellectual thought. your using the wrong side of the brain. the quickest attainment of enlightenment i have ever heard of was by a women who had a stroke. half her brain shut down and she was in a state of enlightened bliss instantly.
in your attempt to "study" enlightenment. your post seems to show a lack of understanding of the destination and therefore you fill that ignorance ( in the true sense not using it as an insult) with a fallacy, a conclusion of your own intellect without comprehension of the subject.
so it is not something to think about intellectually. its not something to discover. at best i would say its something to develop. the only way to develop is through the correct process. you cant learn the process it can only be done through immersion in the process. thats why Buddhism and enlightenment is likened to a flame being passes from candle to candle.

 

[hoshin1600]

Trying to be a little serious here, my confusion with this thread is that it's an attempt to discuss something that is inherently internal. I don't know a ton about Buddhism, but what I've seen suggests that the path to enlightenment is largely solitary and introspective.

So, bringing it up with a bunch of strangers on a message board is strangely incongruous.

solitary enlightenment is a nice little story but for the last 2500 years its been passed in a group called a Sangha. but its about as solitary as being a pro boxer , you do step into the ring by yourself.

 

[hoshin1600]

Look under your mattress. You might have left it there.

i usually find things in my refrigerator. they seem to taste much better

 

[Ironbear24]

Something that people spend their lives trying to achieve and never do.

 

[Flying Crane]

ill answer the second question first.. Hosakawa Roshi, Diahonzen Chozen JI, Rinzai Zen. The rest is irrelevant.

For the Asian thought process enlightenment just is. The experience is what it is. But for western thought the we separate the experience from the process from the actual scientific explanation.
thats why i asked what answer you would like.
my simple western answer is this. the science is that there is a re wiring of the brain. the practice is a process of immersion. without the process you will get nowhere. you cant intellectually learn it. the immersion process re wires the brain pathways and how the brain functions. enlightenment by its very nature short circuits any attempt of rational intellectual thought. your using the wrong side of the brain. the quickest attainment of enlightenment i have ever heard of was by a women who had a stroke. half her brain shut down and she was in a state of enlightened bliss instantly.
in your attempt to "study" enlightenment. your post seems to show a lack of understanding of the destination and therefore you fill that ignorance ( in the true sense not using it as an insult) with a fallacy, a conclusion of your own intellect without comprehension of the subject.
so it is not something to think about intellectually. its not something to discover. at best i would say its something to develop. the only way to develop is through the correct process. you cant learn the process it can only be done through immersion in the process. thats why Buddhism and enlightenment is likened to a flame being passes from candle to candle.

I want to have that stroke.

 

[hoshin1600]

I want to have that stroke.

i get what your saying but,,, No no you dont. she was going to die i mean we are talking a stroke here. i should add to the story she was by chance a doctor. she new she needed help. she lost complete and total comprehension of numbers and speech. she was able to dial the phone for help by matching the shapes of the numbers on a business card to the shapes on the phone. the person who answered recognized the voice but it was just sounds not actual speech, typical of a stroke. but she new she was probably going to die but was "ok" with that. she was happy. she just sat on the couch and enjoyed the moment.
also there is a state of thought without internal speech thought. thinking without words.

 

[Flying Crane]

i get what your saying but,,, No no you dont. she was going to die i mean we are talking a stroke here. i should add to the story she was by chance a doctor. she new she needed help. she lost complete and total comprehension of numbers and speech. she was able to dial the phone for help by matching the shapes of the numbers on a business card to the shapes on the phone. the person who answered recognized the voice but it was just sounds not actual speech, typical of a stroke. but she new she was probably going to die but was "ok" with that. she was happy. she just sat on the couch and enjoyed the moment.
also there is a state of thought without internal speech thought. thinking without words.

Oh I know, I understand the seriousness of a stroke. Was just being silly.

 

[TieXiongJi]

ill answer the second question first.. Hosakawa Roshi, Diahonzen Chozen JI, Rinzai Zen. The rest is irrelevant.

For the Asian thought process enlightenment just is. The experience is what it is. But for western thought the we separate the experience from the process from the actual scientific explanation.
thats why i asked what answer you would like.
my simple western answer is this. the science is that there is a re wiring of the brain. the practice is a process of immersion. without the process you will get nowhere. you cant intellectually learn it. the immersion process re wires the brain pathways and how the brain functions. enlightenment by its very nature short circuits any attempt of rational intellectual thought. your using the wrong side of the brain. the quickest attainment of enlightenment i have ever heard of was by a women who had a stroke. half her brain shut down and she was in a state of enlightened bliss instantly.
in your attempt to "study" enlightenment. your post seems to show a lack of understanding of the destination and therefore you fill that ignorance ( in the true sense not using it as an insult) with a fallacy, a conclusion of your own intellect without comprehension of the subject.
so it is not something to think about intellectually. its not something to discover. at best i would say its something to develop. the only way to develop is through the correct process. you cant learn the process it can only be done through immersion in the process. thats why Buddhism and enlightenment is likened to a flame being passes from candle to candle.

So you can't attain enlightenment from just any direction. One must find the start of the path before one can start walking the path.
Looks like you took the Buddhist path (Daiyuzenji Rinzai Zen Temple - History)
You mentioned I lack understanding of the destination. Of course, that is why the title is, "What the hell is Enlightenment?"
I have communicated my ideas to many others and have received both instant agreement and fervent disagreement. I just want to know. Thanks for the tip.
So far I have been exposed to tons of Taoist concepts, but the Buddhist concepts seem very negative. I am still trying to understand the story of Bodhidharma when he returns to the emperor to relay there is no truth and he doesn't know anything, even his own identity (which I suspect is either metaphor or lost in translation). Maybe I will get his meaning one day...

Let me give a try at the "destination" based on your explanation:
Enlightenment is an experience of pure bliss.

And the pathway requires:
Enlightenment requires rewiring your brain (possibly through meditation and study?)

Hopefully another member will take on the task and explain in detail like you have. Thank you!

 

[Flying Crane]

So you can't attain enlightenment from just any direction. One must find the start of the path before one can start walking the path.
Looks like you took the Buddhist path (Daiyuzenji Rinzai Zen Temple - History)
You mentioned I lack understanding of the destination. Of course, that is why the title is, "What the hell is Enlightenment?"
I have communicated my ideas to many others and have received both instant agreement and fervent disagreement. I just want to know. Thanks for the tip.
So far I have been exposed to tons of Taoist concepts, but the Buddhist concepts seem very negative. I am still trying to understand the story of Bodhidharma when he returns to the emperor to relay there is no truth and he doesn't know anything, even his own identity (which I suspect is either metaphor or lost in translation). Maybe I will get his meaning one day...

Let me give a try at the "destination" based on your explanation:
Enlightenment is an experience of pure bliss.

And the pathway requires:
Enlightenment requires rewiring your brain (possibly through meditation and study?)

Hopefully another member will take on the task and explain in detail like you have. Thank you!

I am not convinced that you need to find the start of any particular path.

A path may get you there. But likewise, no path may get you there too. And the BEST path may not get you there, even if your friend got there on that path.