Philosophy in the martial arts

[PhotonGuy]

Right, well tasks and achievements might require patience but also, time limits must be taken into account. To use the example of preparing food, lets say you're running a restaurant where you're preparing food for customers. When you're preparing meals you of course can't rush through it and thus make meals that aren't as good and that customers wont enjoy, but you also can't take too long to make the meals because your patrons don't want to wait too long for their food. Especially at restaurants where you're seated, not at fast food places, most people are aware that they do have to wait a bit for their meals but by the same token, they don't want to wait till next Christmas before they do get their meals. Also, if you are able to produce meals as quickly as possible while still retaining all their quality, that way you will be able to serve people the fastest and thus have the most tables available and be able to serve the most people and make the most business.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Right, well tasks and achievements might require patience but also, time limits must be taken into account. To use the example of preparing food, lets say you're running a restaurant where you're preparing food for customers. When you're preparing meals you of course can't rush through it and thus make meals that aren't as good and that customers wont enjoy, but you also can't take too long to make the meals because your patrons don't want to wait too long for their food. Especially at restaurants where you're seated, not at fast food places, most people are aware that they do have to wait a bit for their meals but by the same token, they don't want to wait till next Christmas before they do get their meals. Also, if you are able to produce meals as quickly as possible while still retaining all their quality, that way you will be able to serve people the fastest and thus have the most tables available and be able to serve the most people and make the most business.

Sure, but again, you're illustrating that patience is part of the bigger picture. Strategy, efficiency, initiative, decisiveness and patience are all elements to success. Good strategy or planning takes into account the amount of time needed to complete an endeavor. Efficiency is not waisting time or procrastinating. Decisiveness is acting quickly when the moment is right, and patience is knowing when the time is right and not jumping the gun, thus spoiling the all of the work.

You can't compartmentalize these elements and then say that one is good while the other is bad; they're all necessary to success in any endeavor, be it scouting, the martial arts, sports, or the business world.

 

[J W]

Right, well tasks and achievements might require patience but also, time limits must be taken into account. To use the example of preparing food, lets say you're running a restaurant where you're preparing food for customers. When you're preparing meals you of course can't rush through it and thus make meals that aren't as good and that customers wont enjoy, but you also can't take too long to make the meals because your patrons don't want to wait too long for their food. Especially at restaurants where you're seated, not at fast food places, most people are aware that they do have to wait a bit for their meals but by the same token, they don't want to wait till next Christmas before they do get their meals. Also, if you are able to produce meals as quickly as possible while still retaining all their quality, that way you will be able to serve people the fastest and thus have the most tables available and be able to serve the most people and make the most business.

I think this has already been answered pretty well:

Playing too slow or cooking too long aren't patience; they're simply inefficiency. You want patience to be viewed as inefficiency. It is not. Inefficiency is inefficiency, not patience. One does not sacrifice efficiency for patience. The two are unrelated. Patience has to do with your frame of mind. Efficiency has to do with how you execute actions. Look at how a chess champion plays. He or she is very patient, but also very efficient at the same time (along with numerous other qualities). Both are virtues. As I pointed out earlier, impatience can actually lead to inefficiency.

In your restaurant example,

"When you're preparing meals you of course can't rush through it and thus make meals that aren't as good and that customers wont enjoy..."

Right, you need patience in order to cook a good meal. Pull the chicken out of the oven too soon and you'll have some terrible chicken (and possibly food poisoning).

"...but you also can't take too long to make the meals because your patrons don't want to wait too long for their food."

This is no longer an example of being patient. As Daniel pointed out, it's now inefficiency. If the chicken's done and I leave it in the oven until it's ruined, is that being patient? No, it's just being bad at my job.

I think you have this idea of patience as the old guy sitting at the bus stop, patiently waiting for the bus, watching the world go by. Going back to your original post about philosophy in the martial arts, this isn't what people mean when they talk about the virtue of patience in the martial arts. We're talking about waiting til the chicken's done so you don't get food poisoning.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And on that note, I believe the meal is done. Past this point, I will simply be repeating myself and others so I am unsubscribing from this thread. PhotonGuy, best wishes to you. I have enjoyed the conversation.

 

[DavidMoreland]

Patience not only require in cooking but in everywhere we require strong willpower, hard work and patience to get succeed and I think everyone has to follow these to become successful in their profession.

 

[Argus]

I think I'll take another shot!

Alright, so, I'm stopped at a traffic light.

If I'm impatient, and ignore it, I'm quite likely to wind up going to the hospital as opposed to whatever destination I was in such a rush to arrive at, correct?

Conversely, if I am patient and wait for the light, I am able to avoid this hazard that will ultimately lead to inefficiency. But I'm not going to continue waiting for the light once it turns green. That would not be patient. That would be pointless.

That's a simple, and obvious example. But let's consider a more complicated one, using taffic again as an example.

Have you ever noticed people who are in such a hurry, that they gun it to lights that are already red, and just have to put on their breaks? Their impatience costs them money. They're needlessly wasting gas that they payed for. But not just that! It's also less efficient than being patient and slowing down. Why? Well, while they're gunning it to the stop light, and have to come to an abrupt stop, I can still be rolling more slowly to the light, giving it a chance to turn green. And when it does, I have saved both my momentum and my gas, and they have to re-accelerate and repurchase their momentum. I wind up ahead, and at lesser cost by being patient and even sowing down.

That is what patience is. Waiting for a purpose.

 

[Balrog]

Most martial arts contain some sort of philosophy and emphasize a certain way of life. One of the things emphasized in many of the martial arts is patience. Its said that to succeed you must be patient. Personally I think that when it comes to patience, particularly patience where you wait for stuff, that patience can be a recipe for failure. Sometimes, I think that in order to succeed its best to not have the word patience in your vocabulary. Anybody who disagrees with me I would like to hear from you. Please do respond and challenge my point of view, I am open to challenges.

Patience is an acquired virtue....so acquire it NOW!! :boing2:

I think it's more about perseverance than patience. Patience tends to imply that one simply waits. Perseverance means that you work your butt off until you are successful.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So lets say you want to plant a garden. You get your seeds, plant them in the ground, and then feed and water them and eventually they will sprout into plants. That takes patience, as seeds will not sprout into plants the instant you plant them. Now, I am no botany expert but for sake of discussion lets say that it takes three weeks for your seeds to sprout. You've got to wait three weeks before you have your plants. Now, lets say there's this special plant food that does everything the regular plant food does, it produces plants that are just as good and just as healthy, except for one difference. With the special plant food, your plants will sprout in just two weeks instead of three. Using the special plant food you still do have to be patient, it will still take two weeks for you to get plants, but its one week sooner than if you use the regular plant food so you save a week of time. It could be said that if you use the regular plant food you're being more patient since in that case it will take three weeks, not two. So let me ask you all this, would you use the special plant food and save a week of time or would you use the regular plant food in the name of patience?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Let’s just say for the sake of argument the Titanic didn’t hit the iceberg….would people still go to Leonardo DiCaprio movies…..

patience is patience whether you wait 3 weeks or 2 weeks

 

[Argus]

You're still giving examples of waiting without a purpose. Give me an example of waiting for a purpose that produces better results. That's what patience is!

Try coming at the question from this angle: when does a lack of patience produce bad results?

 

[PhotonGuy]

You're still giving examples of waiting without a purpose. Give me an example of waiting for a purpose that produces better results. That's what patience is!

Try coming at the question from this angle: when does a lack of patience produce bad results?

I see what you mean, using the regular plant food instead of the special plant food is waiting without a purpose. On the other hand, if you're at a stop sign and you want to go but traffic is coming, it is a good idea to wait otherwise you will have a collision. That would be a lack of patience producing bad results. You should, of course, go when you have an opening and traffic isn't coming anymore, to not go then would be waiting without a purpose.

 

[PhotonGuy]

This thread has died down since I started it but I've been thinking things over. Perhaps I've had the wrong idea about patience. I would just like to clarify some stuff. Lets say theres these two college students, I will call them Bill and Mike. Bill goes to college, gets good grades and takes four courses a semester. After four years Bill gets his degree. Mike also does well in college, he gets grades that are just as good as Bill's but he works a bit harder and takes a heavier load. Mike takes five or six classes a semester and therefore gets his degree in three years, one year less than what it took Bill. Is Bill more patient than Mike? Mike did work harder and consequently got his degree sooner. I used to think that Mike was sacrificing patience for hard work because while he worked harder, he took less time to get the degree. If this is not what patience is than I was wrong in my idea about patience.

Also, I've known of some dojos they have this thing called the black belt club. At the dojo you would sign up for regular classes and then, if you wanted to, you could sign up for the black belt club. In the black belt club you would attend more classes than if you were just a regular student and the classes would often be harder. As a result students who were in the black belt club would usually get a black belt sooner than regular students who weren't in the club because they would be working harder and covering more material in a shorter amount of time. The idea of the black belt club was just that, to get a black belt sooner and that's why its got that name. I used to think that a student in the black belt club was less patient than a regular student who wasn't doing the extra work because they are getting a black belt sooner and not taking as much time, but if that's not what patience is than I was wrong.

 

[J W]

I can look at this one of two ways.

First, Bill isn't more patient than Mike, Mike just has a stronger work ethic.

Or, maybe Bill is working a full time job as well as attending college, so he can't take as many classes as Mike, whose parents are paying his way. So Bill has to be patient and wait the extra year to graduate.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I can look at this one of two ways.

First, Bill isn't more patient than Mike, Mike just has a stronger work ethic.

Or, maybe Bill is working a full time job as well as attending college, so he can't take as many classes as Mike, whose parents are paying his way. So Bill has to be patient and wait the extra year to graduate.

Lets assume that if Bill and Mike do work outside of college that they work an equal number of hours per week. Another words, they both have the same amount of time to put into college and taking classes, and the same thing goes to students who are in the black belt club as opposed to students who just attend regular martial arts classes.

 

[Koshiki]

I think what everyone, collectively, is saying, is that patience, when taken to the extreme of, "I am willing to sit passively my entire life and hope that my dreams come true" is bad. Someday-my-prince-will-come doesn't really pan out for, well, pretty much anyone.

That said, patience in the sense of, "I am willing to strive and train and sweat and suffer for 6, 8, 10, or more years to be considered a Black Belt, I don't need to have a black strip of cloth in 2," that sort of patience is a necessity. I have a pair of siblings at my school who have been white belts for about two years, who have watched their phenomenol younger brother zoom up through the ranks, achieving green belt last month. Is it easy to watch your little brother surpass you as you linger in the dust? No, it hasn't been for either of them, but they patiently accept that we don't think their ready to move up. Is it bad to accept that your side-kick is not going to be functional above the knee level for quite some time, but that you will keep patiently trying? I think that's a decent application of patience. These instances are all patience with oneself.

There's another side of patience; patience with others. I get kids crying in class all the time. This hurts, We've been practicing this forever, why is class so long, why do I have to do conditioning exercises, can't we play with _____, etc. BUT, they almost all have the guts to calm down and get back into class. Should a teacher be patient, calm, understanding, but firm, or should the teacher just dismiss them in disgust. If their parents couldn't raise them with some discipline, why should I waste my time? Being a teacher is about being better, knowing more, understanding better, and spending every moment waiting for others to catch up. That requires a great deal of patience.

Patience is something I can respect and admire above nearly anything else. However, I distinguish between patience and apathy.

 

[Chris Parker]

This thread has died down since I started it but I've been thinking things over. Perhaps I've had the wrong idea about patience. I would just like to clarify some stuff. Lets say theres these two college students, I will call them Bill and Mike. Bill goes to college, gets good grades and takes four courses a semester. After four years Bill gets his degree. Mike also does well in college, he gets grades that are just as good as Bill's but he works a bit harder and takes a heavier load. Mike takes five or six classes a semester and therefore gets his degree in three years, one year less than what it took Bill. Is Bill more patient than Mike? Mike did work harder and consequently got his degree sooner. I used to think that Mike was sacrificing patience for hard work because while he worked harder, he took less time to get the degree. If this is not what patience is than I was wrong in my idea about patience.

Also, I've known of some dojos they have this thing called the black belt club. At the dojo you would sign up for regular classes and then, if you wanted to, you could sign up for the black belt club. In the black belt club you would attend more classes than if you were just a regular student and the classes would often be harder. As a result students who were in the black belt club would usually get a black belt sooner than regular students who weren't in the club because they would be working harder and covering more material in a shorter amount of time. The idea of the black belt club was just that, to get a black belt sooner and that's why its got that name. I used to think that a student in the black belt club was less patient than a regular student who wasn't doing the extra work because they are getting a black belt sooner and not taking as much time, but if that's not what patience is than I was wrong.

You were wrong.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think what everyone, collectively, is saying, is that patience, when taken to the extreme of, "I am willing to sit passively my entire life and hope that my dreams come true" is bad. Someday-my-prince-will-come doesn't really pan out for, well, pretty much anyone.

That said, patience in the sense of, "I am willing to strive and train and sweat and suffer for 6, 8, 10, or more years to be considered a Black Belt, I don't need to have a black strip of cloth in 2," that sort of patience is a necessity. I have a pair of siblings at my school who have been white belts for about two years, who have watched their phenomenol younger brother zoom up through the ranks, achieving green belt last month. Is it easy to watch your little brother surpass you as you linger in the dust? No, it hasn't been for either of them, but they patiently accept that we don't think their ready to move up. Is it bad to accept that your side-kick is not going to be functional above the knee level for quite some time, but that you will keep patiently trying? I think that's a decent application of patience. These instances are all patience with oneself.

There's another side of patience; patience with others. I get kids crying in class all the time. This hurts, We've been practicing this forever, why is class so long, why do I have to do conditioning exercises, can't we play with _____, etc. BUT, they almost all have the guts to calm down and get back into class. Should a teacher be patient, calm, understanding, but firm, or should the teacher just dismiss them in disgust. If their parents couldn't raise them with some discipline, why should I waste my time? Being a teacher is about being better, knowing more, understanding better, and spending every moment waiting for others to catch up. That requires a great deal of patience.

Patience is something I can respect and admire above nearly anything else. However, I distinguish between patience and apathy.

The siblings with the younger brother who has zoomed up and gotten a green belt, if they want to gain rank and catch up with their little brother than they need to know why they've remained white belts for the last two years and what they need to do to work on it. They need to know what they're doing wrong, how they can fix it, and then work hard to fix it. They might have to work a bit harder than their younger brother but that's sometimes the price for achievement. To be patient but also work hard and work smart to correct what they're doing wrong than that's good, but if they're going to remain white belts and not work on it, that's not the choice I would make. They do, of course, need to know what they need to do to move up in rank and that's where the teacher's role comes in, the teacher needs to tell them what they need to do or fix.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I will approach this from multiple ways. Read and respond to the one that makes sense to you.

Most martial arts contain some sort of philosophy and emphasize a certain way of life.

Given Statement X

One of the things emphasized in many of the martial arts is patience.

Given Statement Y

Its said that to succeed you must be patient.

Given statement Y' = Y-> Z

Personally I think that when it comes to patience, particularly patience where you wait for stuff, that patience can be a recipe for failure.

Argument begins:
Statement Y = Statement W ----- Patience = Waiting
Statement Y = ^Z ----- Patience = Failure or NOT Success

Sometimes, I think that in order to succeed its best to not have the word patience in your vocabulary.

Statement Z <> Y ----- Success does not equal patience

Anybody who disagrees with me I would like to hear from you. Please do respond and challenge my point of view, I am open to challenges.

Yes, I disagree with your above presentation of an argument. Nothing follows what you have stated.

Most martial arts contain some sort of philosophy and emphasize a certain way of life.

There is no proof or source for this. This is just personal opinion.

One of the things emphasized in many of the martial arts is patience.

Can you list them? Can you show a source that lists them?

Its said that to succeed you must be patient.

Where is it said?

Personally I think that when it comes to patience, particularly patience where you wait for stuff, that patience can be a recipe for failure.

I believe you are trying to say Patience is Waiting which is not the real definition of Patience.
I also believe you are trying to say that Waiting is Failure
This could be true. As if one does nothing and waits for something and is not prepared to react to the situation as they are only waiting then yes this can lead to a failure. (* Assumption that failure and success are predefined to some measurable value or event *)

Sometimes, I think that in order to succeed its best to not have the word patience in your vocabulary.

Personal opinion and everyone has one. Ok I can live with you thinking this.

I personally think you have the wrong understanding of the word patience.
From Google:
pa·tience
&#712;p&#257;SH&#601;ns/
noun
1. 1.
the capacity to accept or tolerate delay, trouble, or suffering without getting angry or upset.
"you can find bargains if you have the patience to sift through the dross"

synonyms:

forbearance, tolerance, restraint, self-restraint, stoicism; More

No where in the definition does it say just wait.

Anybody who disagrees with me I would like to hear from you. Please do respond and challenge my point of view, I am open to challenges.

I personally think you should re-evaluate your vocabulary and accept that patience has its' place just as does action.

 

[Tgace]

Most martial arts contain some sort of philosophy and emphasize a certain way of life.

I don't think that's necessarily true. At least in the majority of "3 day a week commercial sessions" here in the US.

Im not sure that believe that many of the people teaching MA around here are even qualified to be telling other people how to live their lives.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So it's been pointed out that patience does not mean lack of efficiency and that just because you're being patient doesn't mean you're going to take longer than you have to in order to get something done, fair enough. What I have a problem with, is in some cases, where somebody makes you take longer to do something just because they want you to be patient. I can understand having minimal time requirements, within a reasonable extent, but there is a point where requiring somebody to wait longer just because you want them to be patient goes too far.

I would also like to point out that developing skill in the martial arts, or in anything else for that matter, requires patience because skill is not developed instantaneously. So if an instructor has a skill requirement it is a de facto patience requirement too.

So patience is good and quite crucial if you ask me, depending on what kind of patience we're talking about. Let's say Im putting something together, that takes patience so it's good to have patience for stuff like that. Patience, or to put it more accurately, the misuse of patience, becomes a bad thing when you take longer than what is necessary to get something done just because you want to be patient, or worse, when somebody else requires you to take longer to get something done than what's necessary just because they want you to be patient.