Philosophy in the martial arts

[Chris Parker]

You need patience because you need to put in the effort to attain the rank/knowledge of an Eagle Scout... you can't just become one on the first night.

You need patience in martial training as it takes time to develop skills, and longer to develop the ability to apply them.

You need patience in combat because if you just try to rush in, you could easily find yourself eating a punch (or worse)... the ability to take a moment to see when an opening is there can be the difference between surviving and not.

Without patience, you will never attain higher levels/ranks/skills.

Without patience, you will never develop.

Without patience, you have just limited how far you can go, and how far you can develop.

You need patience. This thread is a great example of why.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I think that when it comes to patience, particularly patience where you wait for stuff, that patience can be a recipe for failure. Sometimes, I think that in order to succeed its best to not have the word patience in your vocabulary.

I think you are confusing patience with procrastination. Procrastination is a hindrance, patience is a virtue. Not having patience in your training can lead to you being a patient - in a hospital. Remember you need patience right now, at this very moment, you can always procrastinate later.

 

[Danny T]

Patience is not 'waiting', it is the bearing of provocation, annoyance, misfortune, delay, hardship, pain, etc., with mental and emotional strength. It is being calm and without complaint or anger quietly and steadily persevering with diligence.

 

[Happy-Papi]

My seniors said, "Patience is a good virtue but it's a luxury that we don't have"

 

[Danny T]

My seniors said, "Patience is a good virtue but it's a luxury that we don't have"

Then they do not know what patience is.

 

[Argus]

...you can always procrastinate later.

I've got to remember that one!

 

[Kframe]

patience in training is good but there are times when you don't want to just wait around. You have to make your own luck and go after your goals. Not wait for the perfect opportunity that may never come. When it comes to fighting, the only thing I have to say is you need to be patient in a hurry..

 

[sopraisso]

All qualities have their due place. No quality is good when taken to an extreme.

Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando o Tapatalk 2

 

[Ken Morgan]

It's all very simple, stop talking and go train.

 

[J W]

It's all very simple, stop talking and go train.

Then what's the point of this forum?

 

[Danny T]

One can be patient in waiting however, being patient is not waiting.
If you are using the term waiting or to wait to define patient you are incorrect

 

[DavidMoreland]

I think every field or work based on some philosophy and to gain the knowledge or trained in anything patience is very important and must needed because we know that one can learn by making mistakes and to overcome from these mistakes we need patience so I think patience is essential in any field not just in martial art only.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Patience is a necessity. It should not be confused with being idle. I honestly don't see how anyone could say that patience is not essential to success in all things.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You need patience because you need to put in the effort to attain the rank/knowledge of an Eagle Scout... you can't just become one on the first night.

You need patience in martial training as it takes time to develop skills, and longer to develop the ability to apply them.

You need patience in combat because if you just try to rush in, you could easily find yourself eating a punch (or worse)... the ability to take a moment to see when an opening is there can be the difference between surviving and not.

Without patience, you will never attain higher levels/ranks/skills.

Without patience, you will never develop.

Without patience, you have just limited how far you can go, and how far you can develop.

You need patience. This thread is a great example of why.

I was preparing to respond to the OP, but because I patiently read through the thread, I found that a perfect answer had already been posted, thus saving me a goodly amount of typing by simply quoting that answer above.

 

[PhotonGuy]

People have made good points here, particularly somebody who said that you have to put forth effort to become an Eagle Scout and that you're not going to get it on the first night. That is true, becoming an Eagle Scout is going to take years. You've got to get all these merit badges, you've got to do other stuff such as community service, stuff with the troop, ect. to become an Eagle Scout and it will take years of hard work, you are certainly not going to be an Eagle Scout on the first day that you sign up for Boy Scouts. However, if you want to be an Eagle Scout there is something else you need to be very much aware of and its this, there is a time limit you've got in which to become an Eagle Scout. To become an Eagle Scout you have to do it when you're under the age of 18. Everything you do in Boy Scouts up to and including becoming an Eagle Scout if that's what you want to do has to be done before you turn 18, that is the cutoff point that is put in place by the national BSA (Boy Scouts of America). So this is what needs to be addressed if you've got a goal that has a time limit. Himura Kenshin said that patience is a necessity and is essential to success in all things but patience can lead to failure if you use it and don't beat the time limit to a goal. Somebody who is patient about becoming an Eagle Scout and in their patience, waits until after they turn 18 to get that rank is never going to get that rank because the rules explicitly state that you have to be under 18 to get that rank. So that is what needs to be taken very seriously whenever you talk about patience is that goals have time limits. Eagle Scout is just one example. Goals that have time limits include but are certainly not limited to the goal of becoming an Eagle Scout. Just about every goal has a time limit of some sort and if you're patient and wait until you're past the time limit, than you're not going to achieve your goal.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Comparing the Boy Scouts to the martial arts is problematic. It's a childrens organization, so by nature, you have a time limit. Anyway, the patience that Himura Kenshin speaks of isn't one of waiting but of not hurrying. Hurrying things usually results in subpar results and often in having to go back over and fix things that were missed the first time around, thus actually taking more time than if one is patient.

You have to be patient if you want to cook a fine meal; nuking it instead of cooking it in the oven for the proper amount of time produces a meal that isn't thoroughly cooked and which nobody will want to eat. Then further time must be taken to either cook the meal anew or to go elsewhere to find food. A

n impatient runner who tries to stay in the lead in a marathon from beginning to end, rather than pacing themselves, will end up winded and spent before the halfway point and will end up finishing with a less favorable time than if they'd simply run at a more relaxed pace the entire way.

If you hurry through playing a piece of fine music, you end up losing the artistry of the piece and all of the subtleties that made the piece special.

Needless to say, if you try to hurry through a match in most martial sports, rather than taking the time to correctly read your opponent and to create the openings that will enable you to successfully land your blows, you will most likely lose very badly. Or perhaps you'll beat a string of opponents with lesser skill only to hit a wall when you face more experienced opponents, which may necessitate going back and unlearning bad habits, which always takes longer than establishing good ones.

Patience is really more about pacing than waiting. Some things simply cannot be hurried. But hurrying isn't the same thing as efficiency and urgency. Hurrying generally involves cutting corners and trying to force a result too soon, causing one to miss vital steps along the way.

 

[J W]

People have made good points here, particularly somebody who said that you have to put forth effort to become an Eagle Scout and that you're not going to get it on the first night. That is true, becoming an Eagle Scout is going to take years. You've got to get all these merit badges, you've got to do other stuff such as community service, stuff with the troop, ect. to become an Eagle Scout and it will take years of hard work, you are certainly not going to be an Eagle Scout on the first day that you sign up for Boy Scouts. However, if you want to be an Eagle Scout there is something else you need to be very much aware of and its this, there is a time limit you've got in which to become an Eagle Scout. To become an Eagle Scout you have to do it when you're under the age of 18. Everything you do in Boy Scouts up to and including becoming an Eagle Scout if that's what you want to do has to be done before you turn 18, that is the cutoff point that is put in place by the national BSA (Boy Scouts of America). So this is what needs to be addressed if you've got a goal that has a time limit. Himura Kenshin said that patience is a necessity and is essential to success in all things but patience can lead to failure if you use it and don't beat the time limit to a goal. Somebody who is patient about becoming an Eagle Scout and in their patience, waits until after they turn 18 to get that rank is never going to get that rank because the rules explicitly state that you have to be under 18 to get that rank. So that is what needs to be taken very seriously whenever you talk about patience is that goals have time limits. Eagle Scout is just one example. Goals that have time limits include but are certainly not limited to the goal of becoming an Eagle Scout. Just about every goal has a time limit of some sort and if you're patient and wait until you're past the time limit, than you're not going to achieve your goal.

I have to disagree with your definition of the word "patience". I think you are confusing patience with procrastination. The example you gave of becoming an Eagle Scout is a good example of why patience is critical, not limiting. Being patient does not simply mean waiting and taking your time. It means taking the time necessary to properly accomplish your goals. You aren't being idle, waiting around until you goal is somehow magically achieved; you are proactively working toward your goal, but understanding that you won't achieve it immediately.

To use a martial arts example, let’s say I begin a drill that typically takes 2-3 months to become proficient at. After two weeks, I get impatient and decide to move on to the next drill, even though my sihing insists that I have not yet sufficiently mastered this one. I have not been patient; I do not have the skills or knowledge required to be successful in the next exercise; I struggle with it and eventually decide to go back to the one I rushed through.

Now I have learned my lesson, and decide to be patient and continue with this exercise until I am ready for the next. However, after 4 months, I am still working on it even though my sihing told me weeks ago that I am now proficient at it and ready to move on. Am I still being patient? What am I waiting for now?

As you stated, it takes years to become an Eagle Scout. There are many things you must accomplish along the way, and all of these things need to be accomplished before you turn 18. You will need patience in order to work through all of those tasks. If you become impatient, how can you diligently work your way through that long list of tasks? You may become frustrated and give up. Now that time limit no longer matters, because you have failed before it even expired.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Comparing the Boy Scouts to the martial arts is problematic. It's a childrens organization, so by nature, you have a time limit. Anyway, the patience that Himura Kenshin speaks of isn't one of waiting but of not hurrying. Hurrying things usually results in subpar results and often in having to go back over and fix things that were missed the first time around, thus actually taking more time than if one is patient.

You have to be patient if you want to cook a fine meal; nuking it instead of cooking it in the oven for the proper amount of time produces a meal that isn't thoroughly cooked and which nobody will want to eat. Then further time must be taken to either cook the meal anew or to go elsewhere to find food. A

n impatient runner who tries to stay in the lead in a marathon from beginning to end, rather than pacing themselves, will end up winded and spent before the halfway point and will end up finishing with a less favorable time than if they'd simply run at a more relaxed pace the entire way.

If you hurry through playing a piece of fine music, you end up losing the artistry of the piece and all of the subtleties that made the piece special.

Needless to say, if you try to hurry through a match in most martial sports, rather than taking the time to correctly read your opponent and to create the openings that will enable you to successfully land your blows, you will most likely lose very badly. Or perhaps you'll beat a string of opponents with lesser skill only to hit a wall when you face more experienced opponents, which may necessitate going back and unlearning bad habits, which always takes longer than establishing good ones.

Patience is really more about pacing than waiting. Some things simply cannot be hurried. But hurrying isn't the same thing as efficiency and urgency. Hurrying generally involves cutting corners and trying to force a result too soon, causing one to miss vital steps along the way.

Its not just children's organizations such as Boy Scouts that have time limits, everything has time limits. As it is you only live this life for so long, you only have so long to live, just how long you've got you don't know beforehand but it is a time limit, it is THE time limit for anything and everything that you do in this life. Aside from that, there are many other time limits that goals have whether the time limit is put in place by an organization, by yourself, by the laws of nature or anything else. You are not going to get a good job if you wait till you're too old before you start looking for a good job. I know of a guy whose in his 60s who drives a school bus because at his age its the only job he can get. Yes you do have to take the proper time to cook and prepare a good meal if you want a good meal but you don't want to take too long otherwise the food could burn or spoil so in that sense preparing a meal has a time limit. It is smart for a marathon runner to not wind himself before finishing the race but he also wants to not take too long as to lose to someone else and/or not beat his previous time. Playing music too fast would ruin it but so would playing it too slow. The fact of the matter is everything has time limits and when somebody preaches and emphasizes patience, they have to take that into account, the time limits. And, by being patient they can't sacrifice efficiency. That is what I'm against, sacrificing efficiency for patience.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Its not just children's organizations such as Boy Scouts that have time limits, everything has time limits. As it is you only live this life for so long, you only have so long to live, just how long you've got you don't know beforehand but it is a time limit, it is THE time limit for anything and everything that you do in this life. Aside from that, there are many other time limits that goals have whether the time limit is put in place by an organization, by yourself, by the laws of nature or anything else. You are not going to get a good job if you wait till you're too old before you start looking for a good job. I know of a guy whose in his 60s who drives a school bus because at his age its the only job he can get. Yes you do have to take the proper time to cook and prepare a good meal if you want a good meal but you don't want to take too long otherwise the food could burn or spoil so in that sense preparing a meal has a time limit. It is smart for a marathon runner to not wind himself before finishing the race but he also wants to not take too long as to lose to someone else and/or not beat his previous time. Playing music too fast would ruin it but so would playing it too slow. The fact of the matter is everything has time limits and when somebody preaches and emphasizes patience, they have to take that into account, the time limits. And, by being patient they can't sacrifice efficiency. That is what I'm against, sacrificing efficiency for patience.

Playing too slow or cooking too long aren't patience; they're simply inefficiency. You want patience to be viewed as inefficiency. It is not. Inefficiency is inefficiency, not patience. One does not sacrifice efficiency for patience. The two are unrelated. Patience has to do with your frame of mind. Efficiency has to do with how you execute actions. Look at how a chess champion plays. He or she is very patient, but also very efficient at the same time (along with numerous other qualities). Both are virtues. As I pointed out earlier, impatience can actually lead to inefficiency.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Playing too slow or cooking too long aren't patience; they're simply inefficiency. You want patience to be viewed as inefficiency. It is not. Inefficiency is inefficiency, not patience. One does not sacrifice efficiency for patience. The two are unrelated. Patience has to do with your frame of mind. Efficiency has to do with how you execute actions. Look at how a chess champion plays. He or she is very patient, but also very efficient at the same time (along with numerous other qualities). Both are virtues. As I pointed out earlier, impatience can actually lead to inefficiency.

You nailed it.

Pax,

Chris