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Karazenpo
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- Thread Starter
- #61
KenpoDave said:
Yes, interesting, Dave, Choki Motobu's speciality was the one knuckle strike.
Yes, interesting, Dave, Choki Motobu's speciality was the one knuckle strike.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
What was the second book and what did it contain?KenpoDave said:
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Okay, as near as I can tell Mitose was a decent fighter back when he was in Hawaii Both Sijo Emperado and Professor Chow seemed to think so. Just how good is difficult to tell. Was he as good as either of them? It seems doubtful. By the time he showed up to train with Ed Parker, it seemed that his skills had deteriorated considerably. Parker and Co. regarded him as a joke according to Thomas Mitose, and that seems to be what Doc Chapel is telling us from his personal observation also. It was pretty well shown in Classical Fighting Arts #4 that Mitose copied two other existing texts when making his in 1947. They consisted of decent techniques, as Prof. Shuras has noted, but nothing spectacular by today's standards. The idea that Mitose was concealing his true art from the public is, frankly, unbelievable to me. That seems to be the cop out of people who want to defend him. That he would show up in public and perform like a joke all the while concealing his true mastery that would make anyone impressed with his skills, is something that I'm not at all prepared to believe. That he "secretly" trained others while in prison is also unbelievable. As GM Kuoha pointed out, it would have to have been REALLY secret given that it was illegal to do so in prison. If there are really "secret techniques" then let's see the proof. Where is the text of Mitose demonstrating THOSE techniques? Without more corroboration than some nameless former prison guard's second cousin (or who ever) to confirm this, I think it should not be given any merit. James Mitose was a decent martial artist in his younger days. He knew how to fight and train others in what he knew. He apparently slacked off a great deal in his later years and spent the rest of his days trying to weave a spell for others to believe. He gave us Kenpo/Kempo (hell, he even spelled it both ways) or at least the seeds of it. But here's something that Marlon Brando said once about Charlie Chaplan being a complete jerk, "You have to separate the man from his talent." Mitose was, once upon a time, a talented martial artist. But it seems that he was a sick person who neither stuck with his martial art practice, nor did he remain a decent citizen. Too bad really, but it's what we're stuck with.
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
just want to make a few points
-do martial arts techniques have to be spectacular to be effective
-old teachers tend to keep secret okuden study until the teachers thought the students were ready (mitose mentions this in his book)
-just because you dont see it, doesnt mean it isnt there
-when something is illegal NOBODY does it
-mitose said good martial arts should look like a mistake(something i put into practice for 5 years as a head doorman in a club)
-you either believe in something or not
-english spelling means nothing to japanese
-do martial arts techniques have to be spectacular to be effective
-old teachers tend to keep secret okuden study until the teachers thought the students were ready (mitose mentions this in his book)
-just because you dont see it, doesnt mean it isnt there
-when something is illegal NOBODY does it
-mitose said good martial arts should look like a mistake(something i put into practice for 5 years as a head doorman in a club)
-you either believe in something or not
-english spelling means nothing to japanese
Danjo
Master Black Belt
just want to make a few points
-do martial arts techniques have to be spectacular to be effective
No they do not. Which leads me to believe that this is basically all there was to Mitose's Kenpo.
-old teachers tend to keep secret okuden study until the teachers thought the students were ready (mitose mentions this in his book)
Well...That's part of the problem here. The old teachers didn't teach non-Japanese, or Okinawans either. Yet, here was Mitose doing so. When someone has shown themselves to throw out tradition so flagrantly, I doubt that he would have kept up THAT part of it.
-just because you dont see it, doesnt mean it isnt there
Most of the time, the reason that you don't see something is because there is nothing to see.
-when something is illegal NOBODY does it
Again, We're talking about how LIKELY something is. Given that nobody credible saw it, AND that it was illegal, AND that there was no proof that it DID happen, I tend not to believe it. The burden of proof is on the person that is making the unlikely claim, not on the one disbelieving it.
-mitose said good martial arts should look like a mistake(something i put into practice for 5 years as a head doorman in a club)
A mistake or a JOKE? Especially to other martial artists?
-you either believe in something or not
No, actually there are usually REASONS that you believe something or disbelieve it. In this case: credible eyewitnesses attesting to his lack of ability in old age, and total lack of evidence that the opposite was true.
-english spelling means nothing to japanese
-do martial arts techniques have to be spectacular to be effective
No they do not. Which leads me to believe that this is basically all there was to Mitose's Kenpo.
-old teachers tend to keep secret okuden study until the teachers thought the students were ready (mitose mentions this in his book)
Well...That's part of the problem here. The old teachers didn't teach non-Japanese, or Okinawans either. Yet, here was Mitose doing so. When someone has shown themselves to throw out tradition so flagrantly, I doubt that he would have kept up THAT part of it.
-just because you dont see it, doesnt mean it isnt there
Most of the time, the reason that you don't see something is because there is nothing to see.
-when something is illegal NOBODY does it
Again, We're talking about how LIKELY something is. Given that nobody credible saw it, AND that it was illegal, AND that there was no proof that it DID happen, I tend not to believe it. The burden of proof is on the person that is making the unlikely claim, not on the one disbelieving it.
-mitose said good martial arts should look like a mistake(something i put into practice for 5 years as a head doorman in a club)
A mistake or a JOKE? Especially to other martial artists?
-you either believe in something or not
No, actually there are usually REASONS that you believe something or disbelieve it. In this case: credible eyewitnesses attesting to his lack of ability in old age, and total lack of evidence that the opposite was true.
-english spelling means nothing to japanese
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
see danjo.......you have already made up your mind knowing the facts you know. so any further discussion on the subject impertinent. this is in no way an attack directed towards you.
there are many things out in the world that people see or hear and dont understand or believe......this in no way means that those things are entirely untrue.
if someone were to do something and it wasnt witnessed by someone credible......does that mean said thing did not take place?
if there is no proof that it did happen......where is the proof to say it didnt happen?
as to your last comment........yes people do have reasons to why they either believe something or not. hence my saying, "you either believe in something or not"
just because a teacher decides to do something non-traditional like teach non asians.....doesnt mean he is giving up tradition altogether.
if you're basing your belief in a few pictures out of a book directed at beginners, then that is all you're going to come away with.
there are many things out in the world that people see or hear and dont understand or believe......this in no way means that those things are entirely untrue.
if someone were to do something and it wasnt witnessed by someone credible......does that mean said thing did not take place?
if there is no proof that it did happen......where is the proof to say it didnt happen?
as to your last comment........yes people do have reasons to why they either believe something or not. hence my saying, "you either believe in something or not"
just because a teacher decides to do something non-traditional like teach non asians.....doesnt mean he is giving up tradition altogether.
if you're basing your belief in a few pictures out of a book directed at beginners, then that is all you're going to come away with.
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
Danjo said:
It has been said that he was teaching the bare bones, the most readily effective, least spectacular stuff because of wartime. When he tried to teach the rest later, the pitbulls he had created "didn't need it."
The old teachers in Japan taught US servicemen post WWII, and we know that they did not teach them "the secrets." They were taught the same curriculum the grade school kids got, karate, not kenpo.
Interestingly, two of the biggest critics of Mitose given the time they met him with Ed Parker, now teach versions of AK based almost entirely upon the lesson they all missed that day.
-when something is illegal NOBODY does it
Again, We're talking about how LIKELY something is. Given that nobody credible saw it, AND that it was illegal, AND that there was no proof that it DID happen, I tend not to believe it. The burden of proof is on the person that is making the unlikely claim, not on the one disbelieving it.
They saw it, but missed the point. Does that make them less credible, or Mitose? The proof is in the kenpo. What we have today IS spectacular, and according to many, Parker's genius was in recognizing that which was already there.
-mitose said good martial arts should look like a mistake(something i put into practice for 5 years as a head doorman in a club)
A mistake or a JOKE? Especially to other martial artists?
Perhaps Mitose adjusted his demonstration to his audience.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
It has been said that he was teaching the bare bones, the most readily effective, least spectacular stuff because of wartime. When he tried to teach the rest later, the pitbulls he had created "didn't need it."
Who said this?
The old teachers in Japan taught US servicemen post WWII, and we know that they did not teach them "the secrets." They were taught the same curriculum the grade school kids got, karate, not kenpo.
What secrets were those?
Interestingly, two of the biggest critics of Mitose given the time they met him with Ed Parker, now teach versions of AK based almost entirely upon the lesson they all missed that day.
Such as?
-when something is illegal NOBODY does it
Again, We're talking about how LIKELY something is. Given that nobody credible saw it, AND that it was illegal, AND that there was no proof that it DID happen, I tend not to believe it. The burden of proof is on the person that is making the unlikely claim, not on the one disbelieving it.
They saw it, but missed the point. Does that make them less credible, or Mitose? The proof is in the kenpo. What we have today IS spectacular, and according to many, Parker's genius was in recognizing that which was already there.
Who saw the training in prison and missed the point?
-mitose said good martial arts should look like a mistake(something i put into practice for 5 years as a head doorman in a club)
A mistake or a JOKE? Especially to other martial artists?
Perhaps Mitose adjusted his demonstration to his audience.
Parker and Chapel?
Who said this?
The old teachers in Japan taught US servicemen post WWII, and we know that they did not teach them "the secrets." They were taught the same curriculum the grade school kids got, karate, not kenpo.
What secrets were those?
Interestingly, two of the biggest critics of Mitose given the time they met him with Ed Parker, now teach versions of AK based almost entirely upon the lesson they all missed that day.
Such as?
-when something is illegal NOBODY does it
Again, We're talking about how LIKELY something is. Given that nobody credible saw it, AND that it was illegal, AND that there was no proof that it DID happen, I tend not to believe it. The burden of proof is on the person that is making the unlikely claim, not on the one disbelieving it.
They saw it, but missed the point. Does that make them less credible, or Mitose? The proof is in the kenpo. What we have today IS spectacular, and according to many, Parker's genius was in recognizing that which was already there.
Who saw the training in prison and missed the point?
-mitose said good martial arts should look like a mistake(something i put into practice for 5 years as a head doorman in a club)
A mistake or a JOKE? Especially to other martial artists?
Perhaps Mitose adjusted his demonstration to his audience.
Parker and Chapel?
Danjo
Master Black Belt
see danjo.......you have already made up your mind knowing the facts you know.
I believe I said "as near as I can tell" If there is some other proof, bring it out.
so any further discussion on the subject impertinent.
I'm not bashing Mitose entirely. My comments were complimenting him where logic seemed to dictate, i.e., what we have proof of.
this is in no way an attack directed towards you.
Good because I'm really not trying to cause a flame war or whatever.
there are many things out in the world that people see or hear and dont understand or believe......this in no way means that those things are entirely untrue.if someone were to do something and it wasnt witnessed by someone credible......does that mean said thing did not take place?
if there is no proof that it did happen......where is the proof to say it didnt happen?
Look, religion you take on faith. The martial arts are supposed to be demonstrable. At least in my opinion.
as to your last comment........yes people do have reasons to why they either believe something or not. hence my saying, "you either believe in something or not"
To say you either believe something or not seems to imply the opposite of basing one's beliefs on reason, "For those who believe, no explanation is neccessary: For those who do not, none is possible." That's used to describe a belief in the supernatural, not the martial arts.
just because a teacher decides to do something non-traditional like teach non asians.....doesnt mean he is giving up tradition altogether.
Okay. But it makes it more likely that he's comfortable dispensing with other traditions.
if you're basing your belief in a few pictures out of a book directed at beginners, then that is all you're going to come away with.
I tend to agree with Prof. Shuras here. It seemed like a pretty complete curriculum to me. At least to what would be considered black belt level. I have read that book many times over the years, so it's not just a few pictures that I'm going by. We only have what he gave us to go by. For the rest we have to rely on hearsay.
I believe I said "as near as I can tell" If there is some other proof, bring it out.
so any further discussion on the subject impertinent.
I'm not bashing Mitose entirely. My comments were complimenting him where logic seemed to dictate, i.e., what we have proof of.
this is in no way an attack directed towards you.
Good because I'm really not trying to cause a flame war or whatever.
there are many things out in the world that people see or hear and dont understand or believe......this in no way means that those things are entirely untrue.if someone were to do something and it wasnt witnessed by someone credible......does that mean said thing did not take place?
if there is no proof that it did happen......where is the proof to say it didnt happen?
Look, religion you take on faith. The martial arts are supposed to be demonstrable. At least in my opinion.
as to your last comment........yes people do have reasons to why they either believe something or not. hence my saying, "you either believe in something or not"
To say you either believe something or not seems to imply the opposite of basing one's beliefs on reason, "For those who believe, no explanation is neccessary: For those who do not, none is possible." That's used to describe a belief in the supernatural, not the martial arts.
just because a teacher decides to do something non-traditional like teach non asians.....doesnt mean he is giving up tradition altogether.
Okay. But it makes it more likely that he's comfortable dispensing with other traditions.
if you're basing your belief in a few pictures out of a book directed at beginners, then that is all you're going to come away with.
I tend to agree with Prof. Shuras here. It seemed like a pretty complete curriculum to me. At least to what would be considered black belt level. I have read that book many times over the years, so it's not just a few pictures that I'm going by. We only have what he gave us to go by. For the rest we have to rely on hearsay.
GAB
3rd Black Belt
Hi Shawn,
I am reading some interesting stuff regarding many master's talking about their study and what they feel is the path, I think the most common thread is the masters them selves were pretty much loners, they got there not by others but by themselves and what they believed in...
I believe that plagurizim is rampant in the martial arts and really something that is not to be taken with much concern, especially when you go to a school and all they turn out are duplicates of the teacher... Whether they know it or not that is what they are doing...
Inovation is the key and to work hard and train, fight the good fight defend what you think is correct and go on.
The book (original) we are talking about is over 55 years old, the information that is in it is much older...The Martial arts that are in it are still being practiced one way or another by hundreds of different sensei and being taught to thousands more as we write back and forth...
I like it when others do, what they complain about the most, when others do it back or visa versa... We all have that right, I like Batman better than Spiderman, you like Superman better than Mighty Mouse..
The one thing that I still have not heard an answer to is that when James Mitose was in the Dojo at Ed Parkers and reached down and touched Parkers foot dosen't anyone realize if you can get that close and touch someone and you have done it without being stopped, they can kill you just as easy ????
A mistake or real???? Explain how that happened, how did he do it???
He is showing you something and he was not stopped from doing what he wanted to, think about that...
Regards, Gary
I am reading some interesting stuff regarding many master's talking about their study and what they feel is the path, I think the most common thread is the masters them selves were pretty much loners, they got there not by others but by themselves and what they believed in...
I believe that plagurizim is rampant in the martial arts and really something that is not to be taken with much concern, especially when you go to a school and all they turn out are duplicates of the teacher... Whether they know it or not that is what they are doing...
Inovation is the key and to work hard and train, fight the good fight defend what you think is correct and go on.
The book (original) we are talking about is over 55 years old, the information that is in it is much older...The Martial arts that are in it are still being practiced one way or another by hundreds of different sensei and being taught to thousands more as we write back and forth...
I like it when others do, what they complain about the most, when others do it back or visa versa... We all have that right, I like Batman better than Spiderman, you like Superman better than Mighty Mouse..
The one thing that I still have not heard an answer to is that when James Mitose was in the Dojo at Ed Parkers and reached down and touched Parkers foot dosen't anyone realize if you can get that close and touch someone and you have done it without being stopped, they can kill you just as easy ????
A mistake or real???? Explain how that happened, how did he do it???
He is showing you something and he was not stopped from doing what he wanted to, think about that...
Regards, Gary
Randy Strausbaugh
Master Black Belt
Danjo
Master Black Belt
I shook hands with Chuck Norris at an airport 17 years ago. Does that mean that I could have killed him if I had wanted to? He didn't stop me from doing what I wanted to. What's your point with that?GAB said:
Doc
Senior Master
Please don't fall into the trap of trying to have a conversation that makes sense with someone who has no intention on doing so. There are some serious problems there.Danjo said:
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
thank-you dave!KenpoDave said:
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
true enough, garyGAB said:
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
does everything in martial arts need to lead to immediate death?
GAB
3rd Black Belt
Danjo,Danjo said:
All I can say to that is stop and think what I said... Ed Parker was in Hawaii when James Mitose was there...Ed Parker was studing under Professor Chow, Professor Chow studied with James Mitose...
Ed Parker knew James Mitose better then anyone else in the early days. Except for John Leoning and Sonny Gascon and Walter Godin (all on the mainland in the early 60s teaching)...
Meeting someone in an airport and shaking hands with him.
Having someone come to your Dojo and do a few tricks and some moves, is quite a different thing...
He was playing against a stacked deck in the first place, someone contesting what someone who say's "I was there," is playing against a stacked deck...
So all you can do is to try to draw a picture with words and hope that others that read this will see it even if you don't...
This web page is bigger then just you and I, it is for many who go unnoticed and who would not dare to walk into a dojo and make fun of an instructor and walk out without injury...In there (own mind) opinion, I would think...This is America not some third world country that has no laws...
You can huff and puff all you want but it still does not change laws that are there to protect persons and someones dojo is not an embassy as I recall...
Cross this line, I will kick your butt you say, I do it and the ball is in your court... That probably does not make sense to you either???
Regards, Gary
GAB
3rd Black Belt
Doc, See as John Bishop would say, "there you go again"...Doc said:
So Doc, explain that with a little more "Gusto". It is a two way street, need I say more???
You and I are similar but different, we have similar likes and dislikes.
We both have similar backgrounds...I know the game and so do you...
All this, is a Chess Game, for some others it is a Chest Game, I am not selling a product, You are. I am just here to see the playing field is not so lop sided...
This is an AK location. You want to diss fine go for it...Like I have said in a post just prior to this. Many are reading this and making up there own minds.
They don't post...They read and say, Oh I did not know that, or look at that guy what an idiot... But neither of us will know who is who in their mind, will we Doc???
We are pawns and we do what we do, protect our King or Queen or Bishop or Knight or Rook...
Look at it like that and don't take it personal...
Regards, Gary
The Kai
Master of Arts
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Posted by GAB "The one thing that I still have not heard an answer to is that when James Mitose was in the Dojo at Ed Parkers and reached down and touched Parkers foot dosen't anyone realize if you can get that close and touch someone and you have done it without being stopped, they can kill you just as easy ???? "BlackCatBonz said:
