What is Self Defense? (Kenpo-Jiu Jitsu)

[GAB]

The key word is not "documentaion," but credible documentation, which apparently none of it existed before Parker passed away. The Tracy's have a history of bashing Parker to make their switch to the Mitose Lineage, (bazzar in itself) reasonable. Yeah sometimes word of mouth is better, especially if you heard it from the horses yourself because you were there, much like I was. Believe what you want. Gary has accomplished his mission. Dragging up old garbage that has been settled here many times before about an art he doesn't study.

If some spent as much time on their art as they do rehashing the same old bogus history, we'd all be better off.

Hi Doc.

I had a great thread and it went off the screen because of this lack of Ram unit..Oh well... Or else the goblins got me..Probably better, cause I like this board and I can't wait for the Grand opening of Kenpotalk...

Don't study' Yea right..I don't hack on you about BKF or Sub level 4 so give it a break..I study...I train...

One thing I will say that was in the thread that went out is ...

Ed Parker did an interview in the "Masters Speak"...he said, he was the first commericial Martial Arts School ...Right.. and he said this in the 90s...

He copied Robert Trias, he even wanted to join his org. when his fell apart, and he gave it to the Tracy's, Along with his Crest that he didn't do all by hisself...And got copyrighted by Will...Or maybe that was later, it is so confusing...

He even copied Robert Trias get togethers and had them in Long Beach..

So lets get back to "James the criminal Mitose"...

You guys don't buy what Dr Ted Sumner is posting either...I will have to talk to him about that the next Time I e-mail him..His last e-mail to me said stay out of the cross hairs..Hmmmm I wonder what he ment...I am sure someone has done that before, must be why my ears ring...

More information to come when George Santana retires and writes his book, it will be interesting to say the least...

I sure do like the History of the Samurai, warriors and all...I like the history of FMA also so I train in both..OK...I talk the talk and have walked the walk.

But I will not bore you with my days at Metro and LAPD and the Hood and 77th and University and all that personal stuff. Semper Fi, while I am at it....

Doc when you are in the "hood" ask some of the old timers if they remember the "Tinman" will you???

Remember the Murder of the Pawn Broker in University Division (70s) and him living in the Newhall area ???

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

Matt,

The Bio-mechanics stuff is what Hanshi talks about and said he started learning it when he talked to Mitose and Mitose told him all his stuff was "******** Edited to conform to MT's Profanity Policy"...

Can you imagine that old man saying that to Hanshi...

When he was in the 70s wild and all full of himself...he had already studied with Master Cabalas and Remy Presas and another 4 or 5 Great MA's Plus he was a Black Belt teaching Tracy stuff and of course that is when Al got mad and said some stuff to him and he re-evaluated his life and the rest is history...
You want to talk Body Motion and trianglization? ? ?

So lets..

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

Hi Danjo,

I think your web site speaks for itself.

Professor Shuras likes you, so you are OK in my book even though we disagree...

Hey, I think there a lot of valid points to your perspective, I think their are valid points in other persons that have mentioned their disagreements, that is what makes this interesting...

Who is this??? Well it sounds like he knows and you want to find out...That is what a lot of the talk is all about, who knows what and who doesn't...

I think a lot of fishermen are out there and they want to write books, I hear Hanshi is going to write another one...

So where is your first hand information coming from???

I talk to Hanshi, John talks to Sijo, it is no secret about these guys feeling towards each other...But hey that was in the past and now we are here...

I be the official mouth piece for Hanshi..That is what my son was telling me today...Great!

Anyway we will be doing it new and different in the Kenpotalk board in March Cannot hardly sleep I am so excited...Right!

I worked out so much in the last few days along with this computer I fell alseep at about 2000 and awoke again at 0123 can you believe that.
I figured it was a sign so I came to the board and saw all this stuff and started typing...This is my last one though I have got to hit the sack big day.

In the morning at Sensei Pats school for a couple of hours on FMA and beating on bags, then got to finish some cabinet doors and go back to Sensei Tims dojo for "weapons Okinowan style" in the night....

Talk about MA. Did you see the "Executioner" Bernard Hopkins fight the other night??? I believe he is one of the best movers around and 40 years old..
He is poetry in motion, remind's me of some one I know...No not him, someone else...

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

Okay...hold on cause this may be just a little hard to deal with...but th Mr. Parker, definatly a GREAT martial artist, an innovater.......but believe it or not...and I know this will come as a shock to alot on here, but Mr. Parker was......human...yep, thats right..human, so to say credible documentation did not exsist before him is ludicris...

As far as being there...I will pose the question I have asked so many times on this board...when Mr. Mitose did his "silly" technique on a highly trained Parker blackbelt did he get hit? The way I hear it...ummm from the horses mouth, was that he actually escaped the punch (Hmmm thats what they teach us to do first) then hit the student on his foot...so lets see, strike, escape, strike back...no matter how silly it appeared...IT WORKED!!!!!!!!

The problem there really is'nt a ton of credible documentation much earlier that the 1930's. Whether or not you base your time line off Ed Parker or not. It is not the advent of Parker that stoped the documentation! There just nothing beyond a few leaps of logic and history.
Punching to the foot, clever?-yes. Practical?, maybe. Efficent?, debatable. Awe inspiring?, seems not! The problem, in my opinion, is the lack of a follow up or escape option in addition to your vulnerabilty to kick or knee strikes. Would it work? Thinking that you need punch in a pretty solid manner to go thru footwear and if you miss is some pretty unforgiving floor-Risky

Ed parker wanted to join Trias org?? Is this in any way verifiable?

 

[Mekosho]

See there Danjo, you answered some of your own questions...who was the horses ...errr mouth I was reffering too...DOC!!!!
You said he answered it many times...if you check, only after the question being posed many times, did the story get changed to "a slow steady punch throwm" Oh well, sounds better that way huh?
You asked how does Parker being human have anything to do with credible documentation...that was my point exactly...Doc had said that there has been none since the passing of Mr. Parker...
As far as the technique...I often wonder, had it a name...cuddly thorns of terror, or blazing saddles or winds of destruction, would it have held anymore credibility to the AK folks...just curious...good day, am off to work!

 

[Danjo]

See there Danjo, you answered some of your own questions...who was the horses ...errr mouth I was reffering too...DOC!!!!
You said he answered it many times...if you check, only after the question being posed many times, did the story get changed to "a slow steady punch throwm" Oh well, sounds better that way huh?
You asked how does Parker being human have anything to do with credible documentation...that was my point exactly...Doc had said that there has been none since the passing of Mr. Parker...
As far as the technique...I often wonder, had it a name...cuddly thorns of terror, or blazing saddles or winds of destruction, would it have held anymore credibility to the AK folks...just curious...good day, am off to work!

I think I said that you asked it four times, I only read it answered twice. Oh well. Anyways, this is getting pointless. My attempt at a summary has ignited hurt feelings which was not my intention. I should have read more carefully before stepping on the toes of those that view Mitose as a hero. I didn't know that there were so many out there. there will always be those that claim "secret knowledge" and because you can't prove a negative, the debate will go on endlessly. So I'll stop it on my end first. Respectfully---Dan

 

[The Kai]

Technique names

Bow of desperation
Kneel of Chance

My fav
Falling Hope

 

[Matt]

Matt,

The Bio-mechanics stuff is what Hanshi talks about and said he started learning it when he talked to Mitose and Mitose told him all his stuff was "******** Edited to conform to MT's Profanity Policy"...

Can you imagine that old man saying that to Hanshi...

When he was in the 70s wild and all full of himself...he had already studied with Master Cabalas and Remy Presas and another 4 or 5 Great MA's Plus he was a Black Belt teaching Tracy stuff and of course that is when Al got mad and said some stuff to him and he re-evaluated his life and the rest is history...
You want to talk Body Motion and trianglization? ? ?

So lets..

Regards, Gary

Sure! Do you think it's on topic enough for here, or do we have to start a new thread? I suppose if we reference pages and pictures we should be okay. Do you have a copy?

if not, let's look at this page:

http://home.comcast.net/~matthewabarnes/example.jpg

This shows the lean / incorrect weighting on page 18, especially picture c and d where he does the uppercut and straight punch, and then the really weak stances / poor alignment on page 19 where he can't rotate his hips and has to lean forward to get the knuckle strike to the temple.

Do you interpret it differently?

Matt

 

[The Kai]

Matt

I wanted to say that you and Prof Joe are really making a good analytical study of this book!!

As far as the technique, looking a little closer this time the one thing that strikes me (ouch!) is that his feet are'nt in agreement with the motions, i.e. punching with his back foot turned sideways.
The uppercut is painfully weak... but a lot of KarateKa make the mistake of throwing this off of just the arm

Matt, I don't mean to gusn but excellent job! Everyone looked at what he was doing, not really how

 

[Matt]

Matt

I wanted to say that you and Prof Joe are really making a good analytical study of this book!!

As far as the technique, looking a little closer this time the one thing that strikes me (ouch!) is that his feet are'nt in agreement with the motions, i.e. punching with his back foot turned sideways.
The uppercut is painfully weak... but a lot of KarateKa make the mistake of throwing this off of just the arm

Matt, I don't mean to gusn but excellent job! Everyone looked at what he was doing, not really how

Thanks for the kind words. I was guilty of just looking at what as well. Until Joe brought it up, I hadn't taken the time to re-read it with that in mind. I had pretty much dismissed the book after digging into the plagiarism aspect, and hadn't given it much thought lately.

The 'sideways foot' issue is a biggie. Folks fall into it because it requires less effort to stand that way, but it makes it mechanically impossible for the hip to contribute to the punch. There are other ways to generate power in that position, but he isn't set up for any of them in that photo sequence.

Thanks again for the kind words.

Matt

 

[The Kai]

Actually in the "d" photo on page 18, there is no way to get anything on that punch, short of forward lunging motion, and then the position of the back leg would 'put the brakes' on that idea! You could change the angle of the punch, to bring ypur alinements back. Perhaps you could kinda do a shifting stance idea to give you some pop, but his base is'nt nearly mobile enough. I probably missed a few options

On the next page his alignments on the "c" and "d" photos is spectacularily bad. Especially the counter punch! Now comes the old saw--- Well he is hitting (non specific) nerve points, he does'nt need power. Well, first off on a technical manual you should be technically correct. Secondly, pressure point or no, if you been in a fight you punch to hit as hard as you can! Anything else can get your butt in a sling!

 

[Karazenpo]

Hi guys! Great discussion, this is exactly what I hoped it would turn into. Doc, I know I have that info. somewhere, I'll keep looking but I do remember another AK guy who came away with something different. I hope someone else can remember this too. Matt, excellent job! I knew you'd get into it and this all comes down to my original question. How the hell could Mitose have pulled that off with students and ukes of the likes of William Chow and Thomas Young? Why did they ever not question this or did they? and we just never heard about it. They would have had to pick up on this! I don't get it. Thanks Todd for the kind words. Oh, almost forgot. Brother Peter Teymourez reminded me of this in a telephone converstation several years back. The opening scene of Enter the Dragon. Bruce Lee evidentally thought that technique (punch to the foot) was good enough to put in his movie. The question was also asked of what follow up would be practical. It will be interesting to go back to that movie scene and see what Lee did as a follow up. Don't get me wrong, I know it's a movie but Lee did incorporate a lot of his own stuff that he believed in in that movie besides the theatrical stuff and from what I recall that scene went pretty well with the audience. With respect, "Joe"

 

[The Kai]

I don't think Ole' Bruce followed it up. The guy hopped awy clutch his foot.

How were Chow and Young fooled? werte they, was knowledge as extensive as it is today? Plus how many guys in your town have B.S. credentials or could'nt produce a decent Black Belt, if you loaned him a Brown belt? Do they have a couple of students
Case in Point-there is a *** **** Do guy here in town. Since the late 70's he has run a belt mill, widely known as such. Now 20 years later he has produced enough "Black Belts" to get the respect of the general public. The question now becomes If the teaching isn't good how can he have some many Black belts (can you see the answer built into the very question).

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

At the risk of sounding like I'm sniping -- which I'm really not...it's just an obvious observation I can't believe no one has ade yet -- ...

So, Gary is the mouthpiece for Juchnik online? If you had a reputation at stake, and wanted your side represented tactfully, intellignetly, wouldn't you select a more eriudite spokesperson than GAB?

And Gary...let loose with whatever criticisms you think you have against SL4; cryptically holding back just shows passive-aggression, not "in-the-know"-ness. It's a sound system representing lotsa good kenpo. Even if Doc were a member of the Nation of Islam and plotted usurping the globe -- which is doubtful at best, considering his history & vocation -- that would not change.

It is better to keep your mouth closed, and let people think you're a fool...

Dave

 

[Karazenpo]

"I don't think Ole' Bruce followed it up. The guy hopped awy clutch his foot."

See! Mitose knew that! Fight over! A finishing move! , LOL, ya, I do recall that from the scene, lol. Chow and Young? Let's say this is all true and Mitose perpetuated this con, perhaps they were embarrassed and didn't want anyone to know he pulled the wool over their eyes, perhaps they also felt it would hurt their own crediability since he was their only officially recorded teacher. Perhaps, he did pull a con but let's say more of an embellishment of what he knew. Going on the saying that the one eyed man is king in the land of the blind, someone taught Mitose Naihanchi, we have information we are waiting to be released that he did study Okinawan kenpo form the Motobu lineage through Nabura Tanamaha. Like some today, perhaps he simply embellished his training and like Todd stated not much was around then and these guys never studied a kenpo art before so what did they know? or did they? Later on it seemed Chow was pretty bitter over Mitose and always referred to him as a con man. He also stated that Mitose never gave him a black belt and that he was a black belt long before he ever met Mitose, that his father was his teacher. (I recall this from an article quoting Chow in a karate mag, I think it may have been Black Belt). Chow appeared to say this all out of anger so just maybe it's because he knew more about Mitose then he said publically. However, then we have to contend with Sijo Emperado's statement about Mitose having the ability of a master instructor and Grandmaster Kuoha stating to be a martial artist in Hawaii in those days you had to be able to hold your own and that Mitose was good in his own right. Confusing, isn't it? As far as those pictures go, Matt is right about the mechcanics but I have also seen very old pictures of some of the old time Okinawan masters and they didn't look all that good either compared to what has evolved, know what I mean? With respect, Joe

 

[The Kai]

See! Mitose knew that! Fight over! A finishing move!

Actually the fight went on for a while more.

Mechanics with in the martial arts, along with exercise methdology is constantly evolving. But actually the older okinwans looked tighter than that, I could be wrong. Mitose trained how long and with whom?

 

[GAB]

At the risk of sounding like I'm sniping -- which I'm really not...it's just an obvious observation I can't believe no one has ade yet -- ...

So, Gary is the mouthpiece for Juchnik online? If you had a reputation at stake, and wanted your side represented tactfully, intellignetly, wouldn't you select a more eriudite spokesperson than GAB?

And Gary...let loose with whatever criticisms you think you have against SL4; cryptically holding back just shows passive-aggression, not "in-the-know"-ness. It's a sound system representing lotsa good kenpo. Even if Doc were a member of the Nation of Islam and plotted usurping the globe -- which is doubtful at best, considering his history & vocation -- that would not change.

It is better to keep your mouth closed, and let people think you're a fool...

Dave

Hi Dave,
Eriudite is not what would cut it with the onslaught of AK and personal attacks that go on with this subject...The continous attack etc. Since you are taking this Sublevel 4 ... I am glad you through in your oar, shows the same spirit as my self If I wanted to go to a fight I would not go to a college Campus for back up, I would go to Camp Pendelton...

Joe Lewis had an interview in that same book...I can agree with him more then I do PHDs on fighting...But we need Generals and fighters I am the latter...

So many times I have heard how loved and respected Ed Parker is and was and most of the real slams to other organizations come from this group of hero worshippers...That is fine just leave the personal attacks for your own family and not me...

Like I say I was told not to go there they like to eat you up with personal attacks and rude behavior...
Well it happened on the other Kenpo boards and I gave a persistant reply never dodging or ducking just let the flak come no problem...

This board is different, I get warned when I go over the line or don't stay on topic But I don't slam persons I slam the topic...

Hey why don't we do this I will be in your area the first week of March we can meet and talk and so forth, we can make a day of it I will ask Clyde if he is avaliable, we can get together...I am 63 I don't bend to the rude stuff or the attacks, you can't say or do anything that has not been done many times...

I've been in so many fights I can't even recall, on the street and any other place you can think of...I don't want to fight I just want to give some fairness to this lop sided Good ole EPAK and AK attack on most other systems...

Hanshi Bruce is a good Martial Artist he is a fighter and I guess that is what he needs right now...

So any thought's on that one big guy???

Regards, Gary

 

[Karazenpo]

See! Mitose knew that! Fight over! A finishing move!

Actually the fight went on for a while more.

Mechanics with in the martial arts, along with exercise methdology is constantly evolving. But actually the older okinwans looked tighter than that, I could be wrong. Mitose trained how long and with whom?

Ya Todd, didn't he finish it with an arm lock using his legs and the guy tapped out? I'd have to see it again, it's been a long time. Professor Jaime Abregana told me in phone conversation that he had positive information that Mitose studied from Nabura Tanamha. He wasn't a well known instructor but he did teach in Hawaii in that time period. He was either a first or second generation Choki Motobu black belt. Mitose never made a black belt under him though. This and more is awaiting release in that A&E Documentary that's coming up soon. That's all I know for now. One other thing, Professor Abregana had also stated that he was told Mitose never left Hawaii. I understand this now conflicts with my friend Dr. Ted Sumner's documents. That's what I mean when I say, confusing, isn't it?

 

[Danjo]

Here's another thing that occured to me as I was reading this: What if the book didn't represent what Mitose taught at all? What if it was merely put together for the money as Adriano Emperado stated? What if they came to Mitose and said, make a book and we'll give you money and he then looked around at the books that existed in Japanese and decided to imitate them? Why would they come to Mitose and ask him to make a book? Well, he was the first one to open up the art to non-Asians, so who else would they ask? This might explain a lot of the discrepancies noted above, and explain why Chow, Emperado, Young etc. were all willing to train with him. Why, after all, would Chow take Empeado to Mitose if he was nothing more than a conman? So here's the question I have: How closely did the techniques in "What is Self Defense?" represent what was actually taught by Mitose?

 

[Matt]

As far as those pictures go, Matt is right about the mechcanics but I have also seen very old pictures of some of the old time Okinawan masters and they didn't look all that good either compared to what has evolved, know what I mean? With respect, Joe

I've seen some pictures of Funakoshi with similar issues. However, the trigger that pointed me in the mechanical direction was the pictures of Motobu Choki. He was tight, consistent, and mechanically sound.

In fact, this points to the idea that Gary brought up, the fighter vs. the Ph. D.

Motobu was a fighter, all his life. Funakoshi was a retired schoolteacher. I guess that's why the pictures of Motobu look like that. This is exactly what I mean by the pictures telling me all I need to know about Mitose.

Matt