What is Self Defense? (Kenpo-Jiu Jitsu)

[The Kai]

I think if you look at any martial arts guide with a "Kosho Mind" or a "FMA" mind seeing angles, entries,etc.. You will see more than the author intended. So this is not limited to mitoses book.

Your interpretation will be your interpretation, that's what personalizes the art!!
If you read something into any particular work is it the authors intention or genius or yours??

 

[Karazenpo]

i have heard of a few other people that have read this book and came away with nothing. there is a lot more to this book than what you get from a cursory glance. on the surface it does look like a collection of techniques....but if you look at the pictures with a "kosho" frame of mind......seeing the angles and not looking at it like hard and fast set techniques, you get a whole new perspective. also......i think any martial art along with most things you learn stress working your weak side or weaknesses more than your strong side or strong points.....its not really an okinawan thing.

On this part of your post Shawn: "i think any martial art along with most things you learn stress working your weak side or weaknesses more than your strong side or strong points.....its not really an okinawan thing."[/QUOTE]

Yes, I totally agree but it wasn't so much the working of the weak side that caught my eye but the 'training method' used. It was exactly the way Choki Motobu described it in his bio which led me to suspect along with other similarities, the Okinawan connection.

 

[John Bishop]

I'm surprised that nobody has discussed the fact that much, if not all of this book and illustrations was plagarized from earlier books by Choki Motobu and Mizuho Mutsu. In fact last year "The Journal of Asian Martial Arts" did a side by side comparison of Mitose's book and the Okinawan books.

 

[Doc]

I'm surprised that nobody has discussed the fact that much, if not all of this book and illustrations was plagarized from earlier books by Choki Motobu and Mizuho Mutsu. In fact last year "The Journal of Asian Martial Arts" did a side by side comparison of Mitose's book and the Okinawan books.

Funny, I took for granted that everyone knew that already.

 

[The Kai]

Funny, I took for granted that everyone knew that already.

Actually I think I have that issue, I guess in the excitement I forgot!!! I'll see if I can rustle it up after I teach

 

[Karazenpo]

I'm surprised that nobody has discussed the fact that much, if not all of this book and illustrations was plagarized from earlier books by Choki Motobu and Mizuho Mutsu. In fact last year "The Journal of Asian Martial Arts" did a side by side comparison of Mitose's book and the Okinawan books.

Correct John, this is an excerpt from my original post:

Some have said these techniques were taken from Okinawan Kenpo Karate and the book of Mutzu but others have said that Mitose learned from an instructor of the Motobu lineage (Nabura Tanamaha). Sijo Adriano D. Emperado when posed a question from myself asked by Professor Gerry Scott: Could Mitose's knowledge and skill be that of someone who had studied only the surface arts and evolved it through his natural abilities? Sijo Emperado stated: 'Mitose's abilities was that of a master instructor'.

That's why I added the quote from Sijo Emperado via Professor Scott. It is one thing to pose for pictures and another to have the skill to do the techniques. Wouldn't it have been obvious to students with the abilities of William Chow and Thomas Young to pick up on this? I don't know the answer to this that is why I'm asking. What do you guys think?

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I think if you look at any martial arts guide with a "Kosho Mind" or a "FMA" mind seeing angles, entries,etc.. You will see more than the author intended. So this is not limited to mitoses book.

Your interpretation will be your interpretation, that's what personalizes the art!!
If you read something into any particular work is it the authors intention or genius or yours??

hi todd

i said it that way because a lot of martial arts deal with teaching from a technique base, and build with variation, if you've been to a few of hanshi's seminars you know that he doesnt really teach like that......its more like,"let's take this punch and work this idea..."

ive always been taught that way from my very first martial arts lesson....so thats how i tend to look at things.
i guess thats why i like to train with a whole bunch of different people.....angles man!

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Correct John, this is an excerpt from my original post:

Some have said these techniques were taken from Okinawan Kenpo Karate and the book of Mutzu but others have said that Mitose learned from an instructor of the Motobu lineage (Nabura Tanamaha). Sijo Adriano D. Emperado when posed a question from myself asked by Professor Gerry Scott: Could Mitose's knowledge and skill be that of someone who had studied only the surface arts and evolved it through his natural abilities? Sijo Emperado stated: 'Mitose's abilities was that of a master instructor'.

That's why I added the quote from Sijo Emperado via Professor Scott. It is one thing to pose for pictures and another to have the skill to do the techniques. Wouldn't it have been obvious to students with the abilities of William Chow and Thomas Young to pick up on this? I don't know the answer to this that is why I'm asking. What do you guys think?

prof joe, as i have said on this and other boards.....mitose either knew his stuff or he was the greatest conman ever.
he may have been a con artist in other areas of his life, but i think i would tend to believe the people he was surrounded with and personally taught about his proficiency in the martial arts.

 

[Doc]

Correct John, this is an excerpt from my original post:

Some have said these techniques were taken from Okinawan Kenpo Karate and the book of Mutzu but others have said that Mitose learned from an instructor of the Motobu lineage (Nabura Tanamaha). Sijo Adriano D. Emperado when posed a question from myself asked by Professor Gerry Scott: Could Mitose's knowledge and skill be that of someone who had studied only the surface arts and evolved it through his natural abilities? Sijo Emperado stated: 'Mitose's abilities was that of a master instructor'.

That's why I added the quote from Sijo Emperado via Professor Scott. It is one thing to pose for pictures and another to have the skill to do the techniques. Wouldn't it have been obvious to students with the abilities of William Chow and Thomas Young to pick up on this? I don't know the answer to this that is why I'm asking. What do you guys think?

Well all I can say is when I met him and watched him do "techniques," he was very unimpressive, underwhelming. So bad that the black belts present all looked at each other as if to say, "Did you see how bad that was?" Everyone, including Ed Parker simply shrugged their shoulders and ignored his lack of skill.

 

[Danjo]

I wonder if his skill deteriorated over the years due to inactivity. If Sijo Emperado said he had master level skills, and Professor Chow and Thomas Young trained with him and even took Sijo Emperado to him to get his teacher certification, then he couldn't have been too bad in the early days. Yet, I have heard from numerous people that saw him in action later on that said essentially the same thing as Doc. I knew an old boxer once that used to demonstrate techniques for us kids. He didn't look very impressive either, but he sure as hell had the old clippings and photos from when he was young and he was a pretty good flyweight boxer. His name was Duff Stanley. And he fought in Amarillo Texas back in the thirties. Maybe something like that happened with Mitose?

 

[The Kai]

hi todd

i said it that way because a lot of martial arts deal with teaching from a technique base, and build with variation, if you've been to a few of hanshi's seminars you know that he doesnt really teach like that......its more like,"let's take this punch and work this idea..."

ive always been taught that way from my very first martial arts lesson....so thats how i tend to look at things.
i guess thats why i like to train with a whole bunch of different people.....angles man!

Actually my comment was'nt toward who you train with or even how. Simply that if you read something into a bbo that isn't in the book, it doen't make the book a master piece

 

[John Bishop]

I think a false asumption that many a martial arts reputation has been built upon is; "being the first, means being the best".

Some of the Hawaiian martial artists of the 40-60s who actually earned a reputation built on the quality of their teaching, and their ability to test their skills in real self defense situations were: William Chow, Adriano Emperado, Marino Tiwanak, Henry Okizaki, Bobby Lowe, and Ed Parker.

When Mitose first threatened Emperado about his break from Kenpo, he punched his car and put a dent in the fender.
The second time he threatened to return to his school with a sword and settle matters. Funny thing, he never came back. And why would this great master need a sword?

The car incident reminds me of the line in Karate Kid II, when Daniel sees a poster of Miyagi's ex-friend breaking a log, and he asks Miyagi if he could do that. Miyagi's simple answer was "I don't know, never been attacked by a tree".

 

[Doc]

I think a false asumption that many a martial arts reputation has been built upon is; "being the first, means being the best".

Some of the Hawaiian martial artists of the 40-60s who actually earned a reputation built on the quality of their teaching, and their ability to test their skills in real self defense situations were: William Chow, Adriano Emperado, Marino Tiwanak, Henry Okizaki, Bobby Lowe, and Ed Parker.

When Mitose first threatened Emperado about his break from Kenpo, he punched his car and put a dent in the fender.
The second time he threatened to return to his school with a sword and settle matters. Funny thing, he never came back. And why would this great master need a sword?

The car incident reminds me of the line in Karate Kid II, when Daniel sees a poster of Miyagi's ex-friend breaking a log, and he asks Miyagi if he could do that. Miyagi's simple answer was "I don't know, never been attacked by a tree".

You know I mentioned the same scenario with Chow, and it was dismissed. Mitose would "bully" you if he could. If he couldn't, he'd con you. If that didn't work he'd get someone else to physically work you over, or even kill you.

 

[Karazenpo]

You know I mentioned the same scenario with Chow, and it was dismissed. Mitose would "bully" you if he could. If he couldn't, he'd con you. If that didn't work he'd get someone else to physically work you over, or even kill you.

I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that point Doc, since that's what put him in Folsom prison, lol.

 

[GAB]

You know I mentioned the same scenario with Chow, and it was dismissed. Mitose would "bully" you if he could. If he couldn't, he'd con you. If that didn't work he'd get someone else to physically work you over, or even kill you.

Hi, Interesting thought pattern Doc, reminds me of the Chow lineage thread.(Bullying)...Pathetic...

Now the reason I am posting on this thread is...

I personally talked to the man who was GM Ray Arquilla's Captian in Corrections...

He was also a guard at Folsom Prison when GM Mitose was there...
He told me that James Mitose was tough, (very tough man) and he had to prove it once in awhile, he had the run of the Prison after he had been in there for a year.. Used to sweep and clean and hardly spoke to anyone...

After he got into a few scraps no one messed with him... He was humble and very obedient. Model prisoner was very hopeful he would get out for good behavior...

This Guard stated, I was watching James Mitose sweep and when he went around a corner and down a corridor out of sight for about a minute there was a tremendous amount of yelling and screaming in the area that he went...

This guard and another whom I also know the name of, went and investigated.

What they found was James Mitose coming back toward them and sweeping the floor. They walked further down the corridor and found several people in prone positions and complaining about injuries they had received by James Mitose...

The best they could figure is these men jumped him and he defended himself...

Just for your information, I know it is not what this crowd wants to hear, I thought I would tell you anyway.

Regards, Gary

 

[Kosho-Monk]

I think a false asumption that many a martial arts reputation has been built upon is; "being the first, means being the best".

I agree with this statement. In my own Kempo group, Kosho Ryu, we have our Grandmaster - Bruce Juchnik. I believe that he took what he learned from all his teachers and enhanced it. Thus creating his own version of Kosho Ryu Kempo - which might just be better than what Mitose taught. (I never met Mitose)

I should also say that one of the best things Bruce Juchnik ever did for our Kosho group, is to give the ideas he teaches a name. He basically created a language for the different concepts. He has said that Mitose basically grunted and called him stupid much of the time. But in all of that Mitose would also say or do something profound. Hanshi Juchnik was a good listener and a great thinker. He took these little lessons, planted them, and let them grow into what he teaches today.

So, I agree. There are many martial artists that have come out over the recent past who are incredible. And we can still see great thinkers rising up today. The masters of "ancient times" may or may not have been better than the masters of today. It doesn't really matter, to me anyway.

What's really important is how good you are now - and how good you'll be tomorrow.



-John

 

[GAB]

I agree with this statement. In my own Kempo group, Kosho Ryu, we have our Grandmaster - Bruce Juchnik. I believe that he took what he learned from all his teachers and enhanced it. Thus creating his own version of Kosho Ryu Kempo - which might just be better than what Mitose taught. (I never met Mitose)

I should also say that one of the best things Bruce Juchnik ever did for our Kosho group, is to give the ideas he teaches a name. He basically created a language for the different concepts. He has said that Mitose basically grunted and called him stupid much of the time. But in all of that Mitose would also say or do something profound. Hanshi Juchnik was a good listener and a great thinker. He took these little lessons, planted them, and let them grow into what he teaches today.

So, I agree. There are many martial artists that have come out over the recent past who are incredible. And we can still see great thinkers rising up today. The masters of "ancient times" may or may not have been better than the masters of today. It doesn't really matter, to me anyway.

What's really important is how good you are now - and how good you'll be tomorrow.



-John

Geneology is important to many people if it was not so why does the LDS go out and search and find all of this information for others and keep great records that will be held in peoples hearts for generations to come (other then the biblical stuff they say)...MONEY... People want to know which ancestor came from where...

The Martial Arts world are very split on who, what, where and when...
Hearsay is one thing records are another...Funny about books and agendas and why some one wants to write and repeat certain stuff and change others.

You see it all the time...

Lineage is important to some not so important to others. Most are looking for what they want no matter what...Others want to edit it so they look good in there own eye...Now that is sad and say's a lot for that type of individual and it aint good I will tell you that...Violation of the first Principal of Kenpo...

If you will stay a student you are better off...Always try to learn and take the good with the bad and go down the path...

I sometimes agree and I sometimes disagree but I will always say what I believe is the truth...Funny it is starting to come forth as we speak...

Thanks Sami...

Regards, Gary

 

[The Kai]

GAB
BTW What is the first principle of kenpo?

What is LDS?

 

[Bill Lear]

GAB
BTW What is the first principle of kenpo?

What is LDS?

LDS = Latter Day Saints (Mormon Church)

He's gunna have to answer the other one himself.

 

[Bill Lear]

Hi, Interesting thought pattern Doc, reminds me of the Chow lineage thread.(Bullying)...Pathetic...

Now the reason I am posting on this thread is...

I personally talked to the man who was GM Ray Arquilla's Captian in Corrections...

He was also a guard at Folsom Prison when GM Mitose was there...
He told me that James Mitose was tough, (very tough man) and he had to prove it once in awhile, he had the run of the Prison after he had been in there for a year.. Used to sweep and clean and hardly spoke to anyone...

After he got into a few scraps no one messed with him... He was humble and very obedient. Model prisoner was very hopeful he would get out for good behavior...

This Guard stated, I was watching James Mitose sweep and when he went around a corner and down a corridor out of sight for about a minute there was a tremendous amount of yelling and screaming in the area that he went...

This guard and another whom I also know the name of, went and investigated.

What they found was James Mitose coming back toward them and sweeping the floor. They walked further down the corridor and found several people in prone positions and complaining about injuries they had received by James Mitose...

The best they could figure is these men jumped him and he defended himself...

Just for your information, I know it is not what this crowd wants to hear, I thought I would tell you anyway.

Regards, Gary

I thought Mitose was a model prisoner. I had no idea he was beating people up in prison.

He didn't even have a scratch on him? No busted knuckles from punching out the inmates or anything? Did anyone ever have to go to the medical ward for treatment?

I'd love to hear more.