What is really the difference between TMA and MMA? False Dichotomy...

[Hanzou]

Hanzou - All the Shotokan guys I ever sparred with, especially the ones I competed against, had some really nasty reverse punches. I always joke to my friends, "Shotokan guys like to punch a hole right through your body so they can give the finger to guy behind you." But I'm only half kidding when I say that because those boys can hit. You must have a nasty reverse punch, yes?

Nope. My reverse punch was always terrible. Probably why I switched to grappling.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I have actually been to visit a school (Tangsoodo) that sparred using the same stances and techniques you see in forms, hip chambered punches, blocks, and all. It was kind of funny to me, honestly, but it worked in that context.

I don't train MMA, but I get the argument MMA people often make and I think it does have some merit.

 

[K-man]

I am confused as all get out. True, a somewhat normal state of affairs for me, but still. Since when do Okinawan karate guys not spar? When did that start?

Hanzou - All the Shotokan guys I ever sparred with, especially the ones I competed against, had some really nasty reverse punches. I always joke to my friends, "Shotokan guys like to punch a hole right through your body so they can give the finger to guy behind you." But I'm only half kidding when I say that because those boys can hit. You must have a nasty reverse punch, yes?

Karate was never about sparring or competition. It was only about having the ability to survive in a relatively lawless environment without weapons.

When Kano developed Judo as a fighting system that could be used as sport, Funakoshi's students and I think the JKA, against Funakoshi's wishes developed Shotakan Karate into sport. Yamaguchi did the same with Goju. Mas Oyama thought they were all ******* and developed Kyokoshin. Competition sparring as you see it now was never part of karate. That is not to say that techniques weren't tested, just not in competition.
:asian:

Edit ... The stars refer to baby cats.

 

[K-man]

You seem to be a bit confused. What I said was that I can't include Okinawan karate in my observation because they don't spar. There is sparring in Japanese and Korean karate, thus I can compare their forms and training to their fighting applications.

I'm not confused. Okinawan karate is the original or traditional karate. Karate as it developed in Japan is not the same and I would argue that technically it is not traditional. Therefore by not including Okinawan karate in the traditional mix you are in fact throwing out the traditional karate and replacing it in the discussion with non-traditional karate. That is basically ignoring the facts.

In other words, my argument is that TMAs aren't fighting like they're training. I'm currently using Karate as an example, and I've showed several videos to illustrate that point. Since Okinawan style Karate doesn't provide video documentation of sparring, I can't fairly include them in my argument.

Again, if you were to say "modern karate doesn't fight like it trains" I would agree completely. Traditional karate does fight like it trains because all the moves you see in kata are in fact grappling techniques.

What I find interesting is that even styles like RTKDCMB's who completely disregard the sporting or competitive aspect still arrive at the same results as the styles that compete or participate in sports.

I can't speak for TKD with any authority but keep in mind, TKD developed from Shotokan Karate.

My argument is simply this; If the end result is an upright fighting stance that utilizes boxing-style posture, defense, and striking, why are the forms/katas and drills stressing the other side of the spectrum with deep stances and chambered hand movements? Why not simply perfect the upright fighting stance, and boxing style posture, defense, and striking?

The only conclusion I can draw is that practitioners of those arts seek to preserve the traditions of their style. To me, that is the hallmark of a TMA.

And the answer is also simple. If someone is out of range you are not going to be waiting for them in some weird and wacky deep stance. Moto dachi or fighting stance is very similar to a boxers stance so if we are fighting from striking range then we train as we fight. However, as I keep pointing out, kata is training for grappling, not standup punching. The fact that you have never trained that way simply means that it was not part of your modern karate training.

Despite being low intensity, I'm still noticing a big difference between the sparring techniques used and the techniques displayed during katas/patterns.

For example, why do I not see the chambered upper, middle, or lower blocks used while sparring, yet I see them throughout forms and drilling practice? Again, the defensive techniques utilized during sparring comes directly from martial sports like western boxing. Why aren't the traditional defensive methods being utilized during combat?

It might come as a surprise but I don't teach any blocks in karate. 'Uke' means receive, not block. All 'blocks' include a parry and either a strike or some means of control. As I point out to all, my 5 year old grandson will instinctively raise his hands to stop a strike so why do I need to teach him differently? Defensive techniques in sparring are one thing but I don't see defensive technique in kata, only offensive. Then you keep banging on about the chambered hand as if it is some weird thing. The hand is normally only chambered if there is something it it. In other words you grab someone and pull them in to hold them or unbalance them. You would never use a chambered hand to spar, or at least in my world you wouldn't.

Which is fine, but during my time in Shotokan, the purpose behind the reverse punch was as a counter blow. For example, the opponent would throw a punch, I would block the punch with say an outer middle block, and then counter with a reverse punch to an open area. Now, I was never able to pull that off while sparring, because (as in the case of just about every karate/TKD school I've observed) both parties immediately engage in the pseudo-boxing method instead. We know that the Katas are expressions of our art, however something has happened within our arts that has forced us to diverge from that particular application to an entirely different application that doesn't resemble the drills or kata at all.

So you're saying that during drills and kata your instructor was fine with you performing the reverse punch like this;

Yes, that's pretty punch how I teach a reverse punch. Nothing to do with the technique you are talking about though. I would call it a cross, and my hands would be open and one slightly lower.

But you see, again you are referring back to your experience with Shotokan which is a modern adaptation of karate. I can demonstrate to anybody that techniques that are taught as 'blocks' just cannot work the way they are taught in most places. The reason you can't pull them off in sparring makes perfect sense because they are not blocks. As I keep saying, traditional karate fights as it trains.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm not confused. Okinawan karate is the original or traditional karate. Karate as it developed in Japan is not the same and I would argue that technically it is not traditional. Therefore by not including Okinawan karate in the traditional mix you are in fact throwing out the traditional karate and replacing it in the discussion with non-traditional karate. That is basically ignoring the facts.

How long must an art be practiced before it's traditions become traditional enough?

Or are we back to the only really traditional art being the "Ogg hit Ugg with stick" from which all else derives?

 

[Hanzou]

Karate was never about sparring or competition. It was only about having the ability to survive in a relatively lawless environment without weapons.

When Kano developed Judo as a fighting system that could be used as sport, Funakoshi's students and I think the JKA, against Funakoshi's wishes developed Shotakan Karate into sport. Yamaguchi did the same with Goju. Mas Oyama thought they were all ******* and developed Kyokoshin.

And yet I can find numerous examples of Kyokushin students sparring throughout the web. Kyokushin exponents spar constantly. Not for competition, but to test the techniques they have learned.

Competition sparring as you see it now was never part of karate. That is not to say that techniques weren't tested, just not in competition.

What about sparring for belt rank like the 20-30 person kumite that Kyokushin exponents have to endure to receive dan rank? Are you saying that's also not part of karate?

 

[Hanzou]

I'm not confused. Okinawan karate is the original or traditional karate. Karate as it developed in Japan is not the same and I would argue that technically it is not traditional. Therefore by not including Okinawan karate in the traditional mix you are in fact throwing out the traditional karate and replacing it in the discussion with non-traditional karate. That is basically ignoring the facts.

How is calling Japanese and Korean karate traditional ignoring facts when they themselves consider their arts traditional, and NOT calling them traditional is your opinion?

Again, if you were to say "modern karate doesn't fight like it trains" I would agree completely. Traditional karate does fight like it trains because all the moves you see in kata are in fact grappling techniques.

Which isn't true. If you view the Bunkai from Bassai Dai for example;

As well as Heian Yondan;

You'll notice that the majority of techniques within it are in fact strikes and blocks.

I can't speak for TKD with any authority but keep in mind, TKD developed from Shotokan Karate.

I know the roots of TKD. I was trying to avoid making RTKDCMB upset. You know how TKD stylists get when you tell them things like that.

And the answer is also simple. If someone is out of range you are not going to be waiting for them in some weird and wacky deep stance.

So why are we then training in those weird wacky stances?

Moto dachi or fighting stance is very similar to a boxers stance so if we are fighting from striking range then we train as we fight. However, as I keep pointing out, kata is training for grappling, not standup punching. The fact that you have never trained that way simply means that it was not part of your modern karate training.

And like I pointed out above, the entirety of kata bunkai is NOT grappling and throws.

It might come as a surprise but I don't teach any blocks in karate. 'Uke' means receive, not block. All 'blocks' include a parry and either a strike or some means of control. As I point out to all, my 5 year old grandson will instinctively raise his hands to stop a strike so why do I need to teach him differently? Defensive techniques in sparring are one thing but I don't see defensive technique in kata, only offensive. Then you keep banging on about the chambered hand as if it is some weird thing. The hand is normally only chambered if there is something it it. In other words you grab someone and pull them in to hold them or unbalance them. You would never use a chambered hand to spar, or at least in my world you wouldn't.

Again, an application I never see in full speed, full contact karate sparring. Also I find it bizarre that you don't consider them blocks, when they're called blocks.

Yes, that's pretty punch how I teach a reverse punch. Nothing to do with the technique you are talking about though. I would call it a cross, and my hands would be open and one slightly lower.

If I punched like that during kata or drills, my instructor would have kicked my *** for performing poor technique. My instructor (like all Karate instructors) want you to perform the reverse punch the old fashioned way; With the punch starting from the hip, with the palm facing up.

 

[drop bear]

:idunno:

OK you make the claim your instructor fights better than mayweather. By your argument mayweather is undefeated. Your instructor is undefeated. More importantly mayweather is invited at any time to cross hands with your instructor in Perth and the fact he hasn't proves your instructors superiority.

The difference being that maywether has a proven fight record against the best in the world and you instructor has not.

Now if you wanted to take this to the street. That is fine but you would still need to demonstrate a proven fight record. This is not street vs sport. This accountability vs no accountability.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Nope. My reverse punch was always terrible. Probably why I switched to grappling.

So you gave up instead of working on it?

 

[RTKDCMB]

I was trying to avoid making RTKDCMB upset.

Why stop now?

You know how TKD stylists get when you tell them things like that.

I don't know, how do TKD stylists get when you tell them things like that?

 

[RTKDCMB]

OK you make the claim your instructor fights better than mayweather. By your argument mayweather is undefeated. Your instructor is undefeated. More importantly mayweather is invited at any time to cross hands with your instructor in Perth and the fact he hasn't proves your instructors superiority.

You are using a strawman argument.

The difference being that maywether has a proven fight record against the best in the world and you instructor has not.

That is a hasty generalization. You have absolutely no idea whatsoever what the instructor (from Melbourne actually) has or hasn't done or 'proved' in any setting to be able to make that determination.

I am sure that Floyd Mayweather could look after himself in a fight and he has an impressive record but a closer inspection of his fight record shows that out of those 46 victories, only 26 of those are actually KO's, most of them TKO's and the rest are descisions. Oh and he is only undefeated as a Pro. A judges decision is not actually a win it is an unfinished fight that the judges decided on who was winning at the time. Also his wins were against other boxers in a boxing competition with specific rules and there were 46 boxers who lost.

Now if you wanted to take this to the street. That is fine but you would still need to demonstrate a proven fight record. This is not street vs sport. This accountability vs no accountability.

In the 'street' a fight record, a belt, a title or a trophy means absolutely nothing.

 

[Hanzou]

So you gave up instead of working on it?

I was half joking. I actually had a rather solid reverse punch.

I left Shotokan (and Karate in general) because of the issue we're discussing; The actual fighting form of karate didn't resemble the drills or the forms.

 

[qianfeng]

this is stupid....
WOW boxing u know the one that only has punches is better at punching than taekwondo

Btw western boxing doesnt fit with every style u know....

 

[qianfeng]

U know boxing punches like straights and stuff can be found in almost every style...

A style is completly retarded if a chambered reverse punch is all they practice.

A chambered punch like thta is only used to train fa jing from what i learnt

 

[Hanzou]

U know boxing punches like straights and stuff can be found in almost every style...

Of course. However the straight punch seen in many traditional striking styles (while sparring) comes directly from western boxing. How do I know this? Because it is accompanied by the stance, footwork, and defensive posture of western boxing. The straight punch in Shotokan is very similar to the reverse punch. It shares little with the boxer straight punch.

Check out this exchange between two Kung Fu stylists;

If you notice, they start out in a deep stances, but quickly begin to utilize the high stance and posture of a kickboxer.

They even engage in some sloppy ground fighting when they both end up on the ground multiple times. I cringed at the attempts of submission grappling by those two, but what can you do?

A style is completly retarded if a chambered reverse punch is all they practice.

Chambered punches and blocks are the core of traditional practice in many styles.

A chambered punch like thta is only used to train fa jing from what i learnt

What's the point of training something if you're not going to apply it while fighting?

 

[K-man]

How long must an art be practiced before it's traditions become traditional enough?

Or are we back to the only really traditional art being the "Ogg hit Ugg with stick" from which all else derives?

Depends on what you are discussing. In this situation Hanzou is using a relatively recent form of karate to demonstrate that karate techniques don't correspond with actual fighting.

In other situations I couldn't give a damn.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

And yet I can find numerous examples of Kyokushin students sparring throughout the web. Kyokushin exponents spar constantly. Not for competition, but to test the techniques they have learned.

What about sparring for belt rank like the 20-30 person kumite that Kyokushin exponents have to endure to receive dan rank? Are you saying that's also not part of karate?

Not at all. Perhaps if you reread my posts you might see what I actually said. Kyokoshin has always had sparring but is heavily into competition, and they are very good at it.

 

[Steve]

I'm still trying to figure out what a bloody TMA actually is. No one wants to take the time to ensure we're talking apples to apples.

Kyokushin karate spars, has a competition element with rules. Also has kata and forms and is Asian. TMA? Sport? Self defense? All three? Why.

 

[jezr74]

I'm still trying to figure out what a bloody TMA actually is. No one wants to take the time to ensure we're talking apples to apples.

Kyokushin karate spars, has a competition element with rules. Also has kata and forms and is Asian. TMA? Sport? Self defense? All three? Why.

lol yeah, when you get down to brass tacks, devil is in the detail.

 

[K-man]

How is calling Japanese and Korean karate traditional ignoring facts when they themselves consider their arts traditional, and NOT calling them traditional is your opinion?

They can call them what they like. I will stick with the official Okinawan definition. Not my opinion ... just the fact.

Which isn't true. If you view the Bunkai from Bassai Dai for example;

As well as Heian Yondan;

You'll notice that the majority of techniques within it are in fact strikes and blocks.

Once again you are showing Shotokan karate. Once you add a second attacker to a kata it becomes choreography as multiple attacks don't occur at a particular time.

So why are we then training in those weird wacky stances?

And like I pointed out above, the entirety of kata bunkai is NOT grappling and throws.

Again, an application I never see in full speed, full contact karate sparring. Also I find it bizarre that you don't consider them blocks, when they're called blocks.

Firstly the stances are only wacky when performed out of context. Seeing you have obviously never been taught the application I won't bother taking that further.

What you pointed out above was some form of choreography to demonstrate an interpretation of the kata. It was not what I consider bunkai. Bunkai is not choreographed.

What is it that you can't comprehend? You are never going to find Okinawan karate sparring on YouTube.

Then we have you assertion that there are blocks. Please show me how that is. 'Uke' is to receive, not to block. Block is a term given to describe what you have obviously been taught. The fact that you said they don't work means that, again, their might be a better explanation. Why would traditional martial artists be taught techniques that don't work?

If I punched like that during kata or drills, my instructor would have kicked my *** for performing poor technique. My instructor (like all Karate instructors) want you to perform the reverse punch the old fashioned way; With the punch starting from the hip, with the palm facing up.

Crap! If you are performing a kata you will perform the technique as the kata dictates. I don't teach drills like that unless they are grappling drills. If I am teaching guys how to punch I teach them how to punch. No different to Krav or Systema for that matter. The fact that no one punches the way you are describing in a fight might make an intelligent person think that perhaps there might be a different explanation.