What is really the difference between TMA and MMA? False Dichotomy...

[Buka]

I love reverse punches. I love overhand rights and left hooks. My favorite punch is the uppercut.

When I was a white belt we did some training from a horse stance, throwing reverse punches, paying close attention to the alignment of the wrist and being sure the front two knuckles, and only the front two knuckles, were the striking surface. We also did a lot of push ups, we did a lot of pull ups, we did a lot of stretching. But we never did a push up in a fight, nor a pull up, or a stretch, or a horse stance.

I've been boxing almost as long as I've been doing Martial Arts. Spent far to long in front of a speed bag. But never once in a fight, or in sparring, did I hold my hands the way they are used on a speed bag, or punch anyone in even remotely that way. I've spent a jillion hours skipping rope for endurance and footwork. But never once in my life did I ever use the foot motion that's particular to skipping rope in the footwork of sparring, or actual fighting.

I'm sure most of us do, or have done, bag work and focus mitt work. But we hit people a little differently. Some may say it's the same, but it's not. You hit a bag like a bag, a mitt like a mitt, a shield like a shield and a person like a person. Even if it's the same punch, they are all done a little differently.

As for a reverse punch being inefficient for actual fighting, that would depend on the puncher. I know some folks who throw a pretty good reverse punch. Just left one of those guys a couple hours ago at his office. He's in the NFL Hall of Fame and has been practicing Martial arts since he was a kid. As good as he was as a linebacker, he's always been an even better karate man and sure knows a lot about hard contact. He's got a nice reverse punch. As do his students who are more the size of you and I.

As far as western boxing simply having a superior method and application to the straight punch.....the straight punch came fairly late in history, as did the left hook. I learned the straight punch through Martial Arts first. And we can't use the argument that if the boxer throws his and I throw mine, blah, blah....cuz, as I've said, I've done a lot of boxing. He ain't going to throw much of a straight right hand while he's sitting on his *** or trying to figure out what the hell this arm triangle is.

I fail to see any argument against either a straight right from boxing or a reverse punch from Martial Arts. Having eaten many of both, they both pretty much suck to get hit with.

 

[K-man]

Instead of telling me, you could simply show me.?

So again, if it's not on YouTube it doesn't exist! Perhaps you need to visit a dojo that teaches the way I have described or visit Okinawa for yourself. It was only after seeing Okinawan karate that I changed styles.

And you are correct; I have never seen that type of training. The training I've seen and experienced during my time in karate is reinforced by the videos I've posted. When we engaged in sparring (kumite), we looked like those people in the videos I've posted. When we had a grandmaster come in for a seminar, he or she looked like that video of Taira Sensei you posted. When we did kata, it looked like that video of Antonio Diaz I posted.?

So what style of karate did you practise, at what age and for how long? We don't have any Grandmasters that I know of, so you are very fortunate. And I know of only a handful of people that teach the way Taira does, Iain Abernethy being one of them.

The only piece missing here is the video of karate stylists (ANY karate stylist) performing the movements of Taira Sensei (or something similar) on a non compliant target. I don't think that's too much to ask.?

Then take some time and look for it on YouTube since you want to see it. I don't think you'll find much that will satisfy you. However, a lot of the stuff Taira is doing is against a fair degree of resistance. When we train the bunkai with experienced guys it is fast but again, you can't just be smacking your partner in the head. It is very hard to defend against the strikes.

Now you're telling me that you guys don't spar (kumite) in the dojo at all? How do you practice your techniques then? How do you know what you're learning even works on a non-compliant, moving target? ?

The Okinawan philosophy is to enter and engage and not disengage so we do not spar in the way you have been posting. We used to spar that way when we were training under the Goju Kai. Our sparring is just as intense but in a different way.

Judo, wrestling, Bjj, etc. I find the argument dubious because in my experience you can't practice grappling via solo kata. You need to practice with a resisting, non compliant partner (randori) or you're wasting your time.?

Obviously you don't practise grappling without a partner. That is why there is the bunkai or application for the kata. The kata is the system. You have to learn how to use the system and for that you need an experienced instructor and a partner. And, yes, your partner is resisting.

This isn't competition;

That is a test for sandan. Again, I find it interesting that during a test for a rank above instructor level, the practitioner isn't displaying many of the techniques you discuss, or displayed within kata.

Then, again, these guys are probably just Japanese style Goju right??

Exactly! That is the original style of Goju I trained. The badge at the bottom is the Goju Kai emblem and the head instructor was graded in Japan if you visit the website. Goju Kai are very big into that type of sparring. We used to do that every training session. It is continuous sparring rather than point sparring but the principles are the same. You won't find any grappling in that style of kumite. Occasionally they might catch a foot and take the guy down but that's about it. And, thanks for another put down ... it is not 'just' Japanese style Goju. Gogen Yamaguchi did a fantastic job in promoting Goju Kai around the world. Goju Kai is one of the world' stop karate styles, but it is heavily sport oriented.

There is no put down in that last sentence.

Full speed application is part of training. The video you showed is a demonstration. Both of which encompass training. Demonstrate, practice, apply.

Example; My instructor demonstrates a choke to the class. The class practices the choke. During rolling/randori/sparring the class applies the choke at full speed against a resisting partner.

The issue here is that the application doesn't match the other two parts in traditional Karate. Why is that?

It was a put down and it was offensive. I haven't seen video of army guys breaking each other's necks during training either. It was an ex commando who showed me how to do that and the kata are full of neck cranks. How am I meant to train them at full strength and speed? Some things you can train at full speed and power, some things you can't.

 

[Hanzou]

To push the analogy to its elastic limit; boxers have a limited vocabulary. Boxers are incredibly proficient and powerful punchers because that is primarily what they focus on, they are not very proficient at kicking. We have had many students from other martial arts train with us in the past, including kickboxing, and no one has shown us up yet.

Nor do boxers claim to be proficient at kicking. I'm sure if a boxer wanted to learn kicking, they'd probably learn from TKD and emulate its training techniques. However that wasn't my point. My point is that you've already admitted that the boxing method is the superior method to the traditional method, yet you hold on to the traditional method for preservation purposes.

I believe the phrase was "We have some boxing like techniques"

You also stated that while sparring you straight punch from the guard position. You went on to presume that there's no difference between the boxing straight punch and the reverse punch. After that belief was proven false, you're now backpedaling into saying that your TKD system with its traditional methodology somehow has a punching system on par with boxing/kickboxing.

If it aint broke don't fix it! There has never been any direct comparative tests between RTKD hand strikes and boxing punches, all I know is that we can hit pretty damn hard. I doubt there would be many people who could withstand a full power back fist to the temple, so why would we want to discard that?

Well clearly its broke, since you're not using the chambered reverse punch while sparring. You fixed it by adapting a sport technique instead. Your school discovered this either by having a student who used boxing-like techniques your top students couldn't counter, or further in the past a western boxer beat the crap out of an TKD stylist and its trickled down to the modern day. In either case, there's a reason you're not punching like you're training to punch.

That is a strawman argument it is not what I said at all. It is the same punch but starting from a different position. There are many reasons to teach punching from the hip, if you search some of my posts on previous threads you will find where I have given several reasons.

Sorry, but the reverse punch and the boxer's straight punch is not the same punch. You could argue that they share some principles, but it sure as heck isn't the same.

I'm sure there are many reasons to punch from the hip. Unfortunately all those reasons are pointless if you're supplanting it with a different punch entirely.

That is a hasty generalization. You have a very narrow view of karate, and martial arts in general from a limited sample size.

Yes, I keep hearing that criticism. Yet for some reason the ones that keep repeating that can provide no evidence to the contrary outside of anecdotal accounts and personal opinion.

 

[Hanzou]

So again, if it's not on YouTube it doesn't exist! Perhaps you need to visit a dojo that teaches the way I have described or visit Okinawa for yourself. It was only after seeing Okinawan karate that I changed styles.

Simply a long winded way of saying you have no objective evidence to back up your claims?

So what style of karate did you practise, at what age and for how long? We don't have any Grandmasters that I know of, so you are very fortunate. And I know of only a handful of people that teach the way Taira does, Iain Abernethy being one of them.

For the better part of the decade I trained in Shotokan, TKD, and TSD. I received a BB in Shotokan. The seminar I spoke of was during my TKD years where our GM popped in and did some fancy stuff on a willing participant.

Then take some time and look for it on YouTube since you want to see it. I don't think you'll find much that will satisfy you. However, a lot of the stuff Taira is doing is against a fair degree of resistance. When we train the bunkai with experienced guys it is fast but again, you can't just be smacking your partner in the head. It is very hard to defend against the strikes.

All I'm asking for is some video of Goju Ryu practitioners applying what Taira did (or bunkai in general) on resisting opponents during a sparring session. I don't think that's too much to ask for.

I'm sure I could find some seminars of one of the Gracies where they demonstrate techniques, and then find a video of students applying those techniques on resisting opponents.

Different arts I suppose....

 

[RTKDCMB]

. My point is that you've already admitted that the boxing method is the superior method to the traditional method, yet you hold on to the traditional method for preservation purposes.

Anotherr strawman argument. I have admitted no such thing other than boxers punch good. I hold to the traditional method because it works.

You also stated that while sparring you straight punch from the guard position. You went on to presume that there's no difference between the boxing straight punch and the reverse punch. After that belief was proven false, you're now backpedaling into saying that your TKD system with its traditional methodology somehow has a punching system on par with boxing/kickboxing.

I said there was not much difference between the reverse punch and boxing straight punch, which is different to saying exactly the same. I said that the two versions of our punch are the same punch, but from different starting positions.

Well clearly its broke, since you're not using the chambered reverse punch while sparring. You fixed it by adapting a sport technique instead. Your school discovered this either by having a student who used boxing-like techniques your top students couldn't counter, or further in the past a western boxer beat the crap out of an TKD stylist and its trickled down to the modern day. In either case, there's a reason you're not punching like you're training to punch.

That is an argument from personal incredulity. No one has been able to get the better of one of our top students in one of our classes before. But hey you are more than welcome to come to one of our classes and test your hypothesis anytime you like.

Here is one of our instructors from over east taking part in a 100 man Kumite for a charity event against multiple styles, including boxing. Does he appear particularly disadvantaged to you? And before you say "Oh but it looks like kickboxing" he is using the rules and allowed striking targets of each individual style he is facing.

I'm sure there are many reasons to punch from the hip. Unfortunately all those reasons are pointless if you're supplanting it with a different punch entirely.

And so is that.

Yes, I keep hearing that criticism. Yet for some reason the ones that keep repeating that can provide no evidence to the contrary outside of anecdotal accounts and personal opinion.

Then maybe you should listen for once.

 

[Hanzou]

Anotherr strawman argument. I have admitted no such thing other than boxers punch good. I hold to the traditional method because it works.

So you didnt type this?

- We may use chambered punches from the hip in the basics and patterns but not in sparring or self defence, they are used from the guard. A close inspection of all of our hand techniques will show that there are actually very few that actually start from the hip.[/b]

How else should I interpret that statement?

That is an argument from personal incredulity. No one has been able to get the better of one of our top students in one of our classes before. But hey you are more than welcome to come to one of our classes and test your hypothesis anytime you like.

No offense, but I'm not traveling to Western Australia just to experience a traditional TKD school. There's plenty of them here in the states.

Here is one of our instructors from over east taking part in a 100 man Kumite for a charity event against multiple styles, including boxing. Does he appear particularly disadvantaged to you? And before you say "Oh but it looks like kickboxing" he is using the rules and allowed striking targets of each individual style he is facing.

I'm curious; What rules say that he can't use karate stances or hand techniques? I didn't see too many reverse punches in that vid. However, I did see quite a bit pseudo boxing.E]

 

[jks9199]

Folks,
Keep things friendly. If you think there has been a personal shot... Use the RTM button.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

 

[K-man]

Simply a long winded way of saying you have no objective evidence to back up your claims?

Not at all. I teach it that way and they teach it at the Jundokan in Okinawa that way. There are schools all over the world doing the same. I don't give a stuff that you haven't seen it. If you take the trouble you will find a number of videos on YouTube.

For the better part of the decade I trained in Shotokan, TKD, and TSD. I received a BB in Shotokan. The seminar I spoke of was during my TKD years where our GM popped in and did some fancy stuff on a willing participant.

I notice you didn't give your age when you were training. But regardless, you have never trained karate as it used to be trained before it became a sport. Yet you are an expert on traditional karate. Mmm!

All I'm asking for is some video of Goju Ryu practitioners applying what Taira did (or bunkai in general) on resisting opponents during a sparring session. I don't think that's too much to ask for.

Just Google Taira Bunkai. There's heaps there but you won't find any sparring because traditional karate as trained in Okinawa doesn't spar. It there something in that statement you don't understand?

I'm sure I could find some seminars of one of the Gracies where they demonstrate techniques, and then find a video of students applying those techniques on resisting opponents.

Different arts I suppose....

True! One is a sport and one is not. As to demonstrating on resisting opponents ... it is irrelevant as seminars are for learning not for demonstrating how to hurt people which is what RB martial arts do if you go too hard. There are videos of the seminars available. If you want them then you can pay for them like the rest of us. As to resistance. We even practise Aikido against total resistance so don't think it is only MMA that does that.

Since you arrived back this has just degenerated into the old "MMA/BJJ is great and the rest isn't real and the techniques are crap" arguement. I don't have any issues in respecting what MMA or BJJ do. And, I don't have issues with MAs that have gone down the sport road. I teach Karate and I teach Krav and I can assure you there is no difference in effectiveness between them. You seem to have a problem with anything other than what you have experienced.

 

[RTKDCMB]

No offense, but I'm not traveling to Western Australia just to experience a traditional TKD school. There's plenty of them here in the states.

You can go anywhere in Australia or New Zealand. There are none like ours in the US that I am aware of.

I'm curious; What rules say that he can't use karate stances or hand techniques?

That could have something to do with him wearing boxing gloves for the boxers and kickboxers and that he does not do Karate.

I didn't see too many reverse punches in that vid.

At 0:11, 0:35, maybe you should look again.

 

[drop bear]

Anotherr strawman argument. I have admitted no such thing other than boxers punch good. I hold to the traditional method because it works.




I said there was not much difference between the reverse punch and boxing straight punch, which is different to saying exactly the same. I said that the two versions of our punch are the same punch, but from different starting positions.



That is an argument from personal incredulity. No one has been able to get the better of one of our top students in one of our classes before. But hey you are more than welcome to come to one of our classes and test your hypothesis anytime you like.

Here is one of our instructors from over east taking part in a 100 man Kumite for a charity event against multiple styles, including boxing. Does he appear particularly disadvantaged to you? And before you say "Oh but it looks like kickboxing" he is using the rules and allowed striking targets of each individual style he is facing.

And so is that.



Then maybe you should listen for once.

You can't compare an unproven claim like your instructor has taken out an unknown quantity of challengers of unknown skill with no evidence. Against an evidence based claim like a professional fight record. Which is documented and recorded.

It is not the same thing.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You can't compare an unproven claim like your instructor has taken out an unknown quantity of challengers of unknown skill with no evidence. Against an evidence based claim like a professional fight record. Which is documented and recorded.

It is not the same thing.

:idunno:

 

[Hanzou]

Just Google Taira Bunkai. There's heaps there but you won't find any sparring because traditional karate as trained in Okinawa doesn't spar.

None of which benefits this discussion in the slightest.

True! One is a sport and one is not. As to demonstrating on resisting opponents ... it is irrelevant as seminars are for learning not for demonstrating how to hurt people which is what RB martial arts do if you go too hard. There are videos of the seminars available. If you want them then you can pay for them like the rest of us. As to resistance. We even practise Aikido against total resistance so don't think it is only MMA that does that.

Since you arrived back this has just degenerated into the old "MMA/BJJ is great and the rest isn't real and the techniques are crap" arguement. I don't have any issues in respecting what MMA or BJJ do. And, I don't have issues with MAs that have gone down the sport road. I teach Karate and I teach Krav and I can assure you there is no difference in effectiveness between them. You seem to have a problem with anything other than what you have experienced.

I never said the techniques were crap. I simply pointed out a discrepancy between the training methodology and its combat application in traditional martial arts. I used various karate styles as an example. Unfortunately, since Okinawan karate practitioners don't spar, I have to limit that observation to Japanese and Korean karate styles.

However, that observation and evidence is still in place, and is still relevant.

 

[Hanzou]

You can go anywhere in Australia or New Zealand. There are none like ours in the US that I am aware of.

From what I saw via your instructor's kumite, I see little difference between your version of TKD, and TKD taught here in the states.

That could have something to do with him wearing boxing gloves for the boxers and kickboxers and that he does not do Karate.

How exactly do boxing gloves prevent a martial artist from performing punches? For that matter, where are the blocking techniques commonly taught in traditional karate? Please don't tell me that boxing gloves prevent you from doing those as well.

Also TKD and Japanese Karate share several techniques, stances, and forms.

At 0:11, 0:35, maybe you should look again.

I did. At neither point in that video did your instructor perform a reverse punch as demonstrated here;

 

[K-man]

I never said the techniques were crap. I simply pointed out a discrepancy between the training methodology and its combat application in traditional martial arts. I used various karate styles as an example. Unfortunately, since Okinawan karate practitioners don't spar, I have to limit that observation to Japanese and Korean karate styles.


However, that observation and evidence is still in place, and is still relevant.

Well let's look at what you said. I think what follows constitutes bagging TMAs. If not I'd love you to tell us what you really think about TMAs.

As to basing your observation on Japanese and Korean karate styles because Okinawan styles don't spar ... well that is as logical as saying I haven't seen French cooking but because McDonalds put out plastic food French food must be plastic too. Logic is not your strong suite. You don't have the first clue about Okinawan karate, but I'll give you a heads up. It is nothing like TKD and it is very different to Japanese Karate.

Judo, wrestling, Bjj, etc. I find the argument dubious because in my experience you can't practice grappling via solo kata. You need to practice with a resisting, non compliant partner (randori) or you're wasting your time.

For the most part, yes. Like once again, the Reverse Punch. Why do some styles teach this technique? Its the conerstone of many TMA hand techniques, and I have yet to see it used on a regular basis. Karatekas train the Reverse punch almost as much as we train the Guard. However, in Bjj we use the Guard CONSTANTLY while fighting, but when I see Karatekas spar, or in competition, they're using what looks like boxing techniques. Clearly, they're training that punch because its part of their art's tradition, and preservation of tradition takes precedence over usefulness.

If the goal is to fight, why waste time learning stances and techniques you're never going to use in a fight?

Because Bjj constantly incorporates new techniques into its syllabus if its found to be effective. Shotokan retains antiquated techniques regardless of their effectiveness in the name of tradition.

Bjj drills are filled with techniques that a practitioner uses constantly. I have yet to see a kata/form practitioner breaking out into kata when they're fightning someone. They don't even do it when they're sparring in class.

Because as evidenced by karate sparring, you can't use those hand techniques in an efficient manner. At least not at the level necessary to apply it in a relatively stable, yet resisting environment. And I'm talking black belts not being able to use those techniques efficiently. So why train them at all? Just train the punches you're actually using while sparring; Jab, straight, hook, uppercut.

Wouldn't that disprove everything you've said here? If boxers can become incredible punchers training the abbreviated form, shouldn't your school discard the less effective training method for the more effective training method?

Furthermore, I find it interesting that you on one hand admit that the reverse punch is inefficient for actual fighting, and then turn around and try to make it relevant as a training method only. We both know that the reverse punch was designed to be applied exactly as it was trained. The harsh reality is that western boxing simply had a superior method and application to the straight punch, but traditionalist refuse to let the inferior method (the reverse punch) go.

My point is that you've already admitted that the boxing method is the superior method to the traditional method, yet you hold on to the traditional method for preservation purposes.

Well clearly its broke, since you're not using the chambered reverse punch while sparring. You fixed it by adapting a sport technique instead. Your school discovered this either by having a student who used boxing-like techniques your top students couldn't counter, or further in the past a western boxer beat the crap out of an TKD stylist and its trickled down to the modern day. In either case, there's a reason you're not punching like you're training to punch.

Because you are fixated on the usefulness or otherwise of the reverse punch from the hip, I will say that in most circumstances, as trained, it is totally useless. But that is because you, and others like you, don't have the first idea about the technique. All you see is the punch. To me the punch is secondary to the chambered hand. Perhaps you might think about that.

Shotokan suffers from the same issues that many traditional karate styles suffer from; Baggage. You could dump dozens of traditional Shotokan techniques, and still end up looking like this when you fight;

Now I find this particularly interesting because when I left the Japanese based style I trained in favour of the Okinawan style I reckon I threw out at least two thirds of the training syllabus. But you see, it is not the traditional style with the baggage. It is the modified style that has had all the extras added. Still, maybe we agree on something. Some styles have a lot of 'fillers' in their training mainly to cater to their sport aspect that could be thrown away. Unless of course you want to compete in a sport environment.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Simply a long winded way of saying you have no objective evidence to back up your claims?

He just gave you a way (visit a Dojo) to obtain that objective evidence for yourself.

 

[RTKDCMB]

From what I saw via your instructor's kumite, I see little difference between your version of TKD, and TKD taught here in the states.

That is because of a lack of information and imagination on your part. You can not tell what an entire art is like from one anomalous video of highlights. That kind of sparring was for a special charity event and is atypical of the usual sparring style in our art.

Here is a video of of a black belt grading form the same school (which is rather different from most of our schools), I have never trained there myself. The sparring appears to be low intensity sparring (technique sparring), not the usual flat out continuous, one after the other sparring we usually put the black belts through but if you look closely you will see some blocks, reverse knife hand strikes, even a spinning knife hand and the back stance throughout. Of course this is just a highlight video and only shows what was put up on YouTube.

How exactly do boxing gloves prevent a martial artist from performing punches? For that matter, where are the blocking techniques commonly taught in traditional karate? Please don't tell me that boxing gloves prevent you from doing those as well.

I refer you to your previous statement;

"I'm curious; What rules say that he can't use karate stances or hand techniques?"

If you wanted to be that specific you should have said so. The gloves do not prevent punches but they do hamper the performance of the palm, knife hand and reverse knife hand strikes. Without knowing more of what types of strikes that particular Karate style allows in their rules I can't really say why or why not he is using certain techniques. Also he is following their rules and allowed striking areas, not emulating their styles. Most competition styles do not allow neck and groin strikes in their bouts.

Also TKD and Japanese Karate share several techniques, stances, and forms.

TKD does not share techniques, stances, and forms with Karate, TKD's are derived from them, there's a difference.

I did. At neither point in that video did your instructor perform a reverse punch as demonstrated here;

What exactly do you think a reverse punch is? It is a straight punch from close to the body form the side of the rear leg, it does not have to be performed EXACTLY like in the video to be a reverse punch.

 

[Hanzou]

Well let's look at what you said. I think what follows constitutes bagging TMAs. If not I'd love you to tell us what you really think about TMAs.

As to basing your observation on Japanese and Korean karate styles because Okinawan styles don't spar ... well that is as logical as saying I haven't seen French cooking but because McDonalds put out plastic food French food must be plastic too. Logic is not your strong suite. You don't have the first clue about Okinawan karate, but I'll give you a heads up. It is nothing like TKD and it is very different to Japanese Karate.

You seem to be a bit confused. What I said was that I can't include Okinawan karate in my observation because they don't spar. There is sparring in Japanese and Korean karate, thus I can compare their forms and training to their fighting applications.

In other words, my argument is that TMAs aren't fighting like they're training. I'm currently using Karate as an example, and I've showed several videos to illustrate that point. Since Okinawan style Karate doesn't provide video documentation of sparring, I can't fairly include them in my argument.

Because you are fixated on the usefulness or otherwise of the reverse punch from the hip, I will say that in most circumstances, as trained, it is totally useless. But that is because you, and others like you, don't have the first idea about the technique. All you see is the punch. To me the punch is secondary to the chambered hand. Perhaps you might think about that.

Now I find this particularly interesting because when I left the Japanese based style I trained in favour of the Okinawan style I reckon I threw out at least two thirds of the training syllabus. But you see, it is not the traditional style with the baggage. It is the modified style that has had all the extras added. Still, maybe we agree on something. Some styles have a lot of 'fillers' in their training mainly to cater to their sport aspect that could be thrown away. Unless of course you want to compete in a sport environment.

What I find interesting is that even styles like RTKDCMB's who completely disregard the sporting or competitive aspect still arrive at the same results as the styles that compete or participate in sports.

My argument is simply this; If the end result is an upright fighting stance that utilizes boxing-style posture, defense, and striking, why are the forms/katas and drills stressing the other side of the spectrum with deep stances and chambered hand movements? Why not simply perfect the upright fighting stance, and boxing style posture, defense, and striking?

The only conclusion I can draw is that practitioners of those arts seek to preserve the traditions of their style. To me, that is the hallmark of a TMA.

 

[Hanzou]

That is because of a lack of information and imagination on your part. You can not tell what an entire art is like from one anomalous video of highlights. That kind of sparring was for a special charity event and is atypical of the usual sparring style in our art.

Here is a video of of a black belt grading form the same school (which is rather different from most of our schools), I have never trained there myself. The sparring appears to be low intensity sparring (technique sparring), not the usual flat out continuous, one after the other sparring we usually put the black belts through but if you look closely you will see some blocks, reverse knife hand strikes, even a spinning knife hand and the back stance throughout. Of course this is just a highlight video and only shows what was put up on YouTube.

Despite being low intensity, I'm still noticing a big difference between the sparring techniques used and the techniques displayed during katas/patterns.

For example, why do I not see the chambered upper, middle, or lower blocks used while sparring, yet I see them throughout forms and drilling practice? Again, the defensive techniques utilized during sparring comes directly from martial sports like western boxing. Why aren't the traditional defensive methods being utilized during combat?

I refer you to your previous statement;

"I'm curious; What rules say that he can't use karate stances or hand techniques?"

If you wanted to be that specific you should have said so. The gloves do not prevent punches but they do hamper the performance of the palm, knife hand and reverse knife hand strikes. Without knowing more of what types of strikes that particular Karate style allows in their rules I can't really say why or why not he is using certain techniques. Also he is following their rules and allowed striking areas, not emulating their styles. Most competition styles do not allow neck and groin strikes in their bouts.

Which is fine, but during my time in Shotokan, the purpose behind the reverse punch was as a counter blow. For example, the opponent would throw a punch, I would block the punch with say an outer middle block, and then counter with a reverse punch to an open area. Now, I was never able to pull that off while sparring, because (as in the case of just about every karate/TKD school I've observed) both parties immediately engage in the pseudo-boxing method instead. We know that the Katas are expressions of our art, however something has happened within our arts that has forced us to diverge from that particular application to an entirely different application that doesn't resemble the drills or kata at all.

TKD does not share techniques, stances, and forms with Karate, TKD's are derived from them, there's a difference.

Semantics?

What exactly do you think a reverse punch is? It is a straight punch from close to the body form the side of the rear leg, it does not have to be performed EXACTLY like in the video to be a reverse punch.

So you're saying that during drills and kata your instructor was fine with you performing the reverse punch like this;

 

[Buka]

I am confused as all get out. True, a somewhat normal state of affairs for me, but still. Since when do Okinawan karate guys not spar? When did that start?

Hanzou - All the Shotokan guys I ever sparred with, especially the ones I competed against, had some really nasty reverse punches. I always joke to my friends, "Shotokan guys like to punch a hole right through your body so they can give the finger to guy behind you." But I'm only half kidding when I say that because those boys can hit. You must have a nasty reverse punch, yes?

 

[Buka]

P.S.

The crazy thing about computer conversations....

If we were all hanging out and shooting the bull about this we'd be having a grand old time. There wouldn't be any bickering, raised tempers or harsh feeling, we'd be having a fricken' ball.

It must be the lack of tone in the voice, facial expressions, immediate feedback and all that.

Or maybe we'd just beat the crap out of each other. I dunno'.