What is really the difference between TMA and MMA? False Dichotomy...

[mook jong man]

They're never on Youtube.

Yet I can find plenty of boxers, BJJers, Wrestlers, Judokas, etc. on youtube doing what they do best.

Funny how that works.



Yet with Wing Chun or other traditional styles, you can't find the counter example?

Here's some more slap fu, straight from China;

And this is HARD CORE FULL CONTACT.

Like I said mate , cherry picking , cherry picking.
See how this works , you can pretty much find anything you want to support a biased viewpoint.

Heres a BJJ guy showing those phenomenal ground skills we hear so much about.

[video=youtube_share;tpwi1cmR3N0]http://youtu.be/tpwi1cmR3N0[/video]

 

[Hanzou]

Like I said mate , cherry picking , cherry picking.
See how this works , you can pretty much find anything you want to support a biased viewpoint.

Except for some reason, you can't find a video that supports your viewpoint.

Heres a BJJ guy showing those phenomenal ground skills we hear so much about.

And we both know that I can find multiple counter examples, yet you're unable to find a single counter example to what I posted.

That's the difference.

I will give the CMAs credit; At least they resemble their training better than karate does while sparring. However, those hits lack power, and its two guys just slapping each other like girls fighting in the school yard.

I would like to see CMA with stronger, more concise hand techniques, and stopping power.

The entire time I'm watching these vids, I'm just thinking how easy it would be for a grappler to take them down and have their way with them. They fall on the ground constantly because their footwork is all over the place, and if they're not generating power while standing, they're not going to be generating much power in an inferior position. It's really interesting.

 

[mook jong man]

Except for some reason, you can't find a video that supports your viewpoint.



And we both know that I can find multiple counter examples, yet you're unable to find a single counter example to what I posted.

That's the difference.

I will give the CMAs credit; At least they resemble their training better than karate does while sparring. However, those hits lack power, and its two guys just slapping each other like girls fighting in the school yard.

I would like to see CMA with stronger, more concise hand techniques, and stopping power.

The entire time I'm watching these vids, I'm just thinking how easy it would be for a grappler to take them down and have their way with them. They fall on the ground constantly because their footwork is all over the place, and if they're not generating power while standing, they're not going to be generating much power in an inferior position. It's really interesting.

You think it's interesting watching Wing Chun novices with no stance , and no concept of the centerline?

Your easily entertained aren't ya champ.

 

[K-man]

Traditional martial art.
Because again, they retain traditional techniques simply for preservation purposes. By contrast, I would consider Bjj a modern martial art because nothing we do in Bjj isn't used when we fight. We fight like we train.

So Bjj is modern, Kyokushin is traditional, despite Bjj being older than Kyokushin.

So now we have differentiation. Kyokushin is not much like the original karate but is traditional but BJJ that is very similar to where the Gracies started out is modern. How does that work?

Why would the Okinawan karate viewpoint override the viewpoint of Japanese and Korean karate stylists?

Okinawan Goju Ryu Kata bunkai.

Again, mostly strikes, not grappling.

And the instructor is part of the IOGKF. So yes it is an actual Okinawan Goju-Ryu school and instructor.

Mainly because Karate was from Okinawa and was exported to Japan and modified into the form of karate you see in Japan. As to the bunkai, it is a basic stylised basic bunkai used as demonstration. I posted real hands on bunkai for you but you disregarded it as something you had not seen. Well the simple fact is you have never seen traditional Okinawan karate but you continue to try to disprove its existence. How strange is that.

Because they're called blocks;

LEARNING JAPANESE ? Blocking Techniques (Uke-waza) ? Using Arms
List of Taekwondo techniques - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Basic Terminology - Traditional Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate-do Association

According to the traditional Okinawan Karate-do Association, Okinawan Shorin-Ryu Karate, and Okinawan Goju Ryu, Uke=block.

Of course it makes sense that Uke would mean "to receive", since when you're blocking, you're receiving the attack. It doesn't have to mean that you grapple with someone, or throwing them. In fact, in other Japanese arts like Aikido or Judo, Uke is the one getting tossed.

And in Aikido as in karate we do not stop an attack. Stop one attack, another will start. Deflect the attack and use that moment to attack. That is the meaning of uke.

The same reason some martial arts teach people how to use swords and bladed spears in an era when people are armed with handguns, and don't carry swords on their hip or pole-arms on their back. Its all about maintaining/preserving tradition.

And this has nothing to do with karate. In Okinawa weapon training is kobudo, separate training.

Okay, but Karate katas are loaded with chambered hand movements. As I showed above and in earlier posts, all of those applications aren't for grappling and throws. In fact, the good majority of them are for striking. Hence why it's called a "punch" in Karate is called a punch, not a movement that sets up a throw or a grapple.

You showed nothing. You posted out of context video that supported your uninformed view.

When I say "fight" I'm including competition, sparring in class, and self defense. You really don't see many traditional karate techniques in competition, or sparring in class, which makes the possibility of pulling it off in a self defense situation highly unlikely.

Quite the contrary. I say to all my karate students, if there is any technique you can't use in a real fight I will throw it out of our training. I haven't had to throw anything out yet. The fact that you would even say what you just said reflects badly on your knowledge and training.

While that didn't degenerate into crappy kickboxing, it definitely degenerated into crappy slap-fu.

In case you're wondering, Slap-Fu is worse.

This is offensive and totally wrong. The WC guy creamed the MT guy. No slaps just straight in, first for a takedown, then backed him against the wall. You have a very biased point of view.

If you say so. From my PoV it looked like two guys windmilling each other with the WC guy actually connecting. Neither looked overly impressive or good in a technical sense. If my instructor looked like either one of those guys did in that little sparring match, I would immediately quit that school and look for some place legit.

Which is why that MT boxer got slapped dozens of times and walked out of that without a single mark or bruise on him? There was no power behind any of those slaps. He probably got more damage from running into the glass.

So why didn't the MT guy fight back? Why did he keep backing away? Not to mention the fact that there were not 'dozens of slaps'. And of course you put down the WC guy as not legit because he doesn't look or fight the way your instructor would fight. Well, I've got some news for you. A boxer doesn't look or fight like a sumo wrestler either, and I doubt either looks or fights like your instructor. So, which one is not legit? Pity you can't accept the value of all the different martial arts and move on without the continuous put downs.

Or maybe the Wing Chun guy lacks power in his strikes?

I doubt it. They seemed effective enough in a sparring situation to me, especially when WC guys don't normally spar.

Except for some reason, you can't find a video that supports your viewpoint.

And we both know that I can find multiple counter examples, yet you're unable to find a single counter example to what I posted.

That's the difference.

Not all martial artists feel the need to post their training on YouTube. Just because it isn't on YouTube doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I will give the CMAs credit; At least they resemble their training better than karate does while sparring. However, those hits lack power, and its two guys just slapping each other like girls fighting in the school yard.

I would like to see CMA with stronger, more concise hand techniques, and stopping power.

The entire time I'm watching these vids, I'm just thinking how easy it would be for a grappler to take them down and have their way with them. They fall on the ground constantly because their footwork is all over the place, and if they're not generating power while standing, they're not going to be generating much power in an inferior position. It's really interesting.

And of course you are talking about training against a specialist grappler. Footwork all over the place obviously is in a sparring context. As I said sparring has no real place in our training. But thanks for your insight that CMA's are better than Karate in the way they train. Your ignorance of my martial art in particular continues to amaze.

 

[qianfeng]

Of course. However the straight punch seen in many traditional striking styles (while sparring) comes directly from western boxing. How do I know this? Because it is accompanied by the stance, footwork, and defensive posture of western boxing. The straight punch in Shotokan is very similar to the reverse punch. It shares little with the boxer straight punch.

Check out this exchange between two Kung Fu stylists;

If you notice, they start out in a deep stances, but quickly begin to utilize the high stance and posture of a kickboxer.

They even engage in some sloppy ground fighting when they both end up on the ground multiple times. I cringed at the attempts of submission grappling by those two, but what can you do?

Striking like punching in boxing is the basics in many style and obviously kung fu is good at submission grappling... It's a standup style. Boxers would look the same on the ground.


Chambered punches and blocks are the core of traditional practice in many styles.



What's the point of training something if you're not going to apply it while fighting?

Fa jing is used in a fight....
It's good body positioning when issuing power, boxers use it as well it's like rotating ur waist and then putting that power into ur punch, good body mechanics

 

[qianfeng]

It's cause his not wearing gloves... So he doesn't want to use fists

 

[qianfeng]

U would then find the people in that video...
jerry is a wing chun situ and a former Hong Kong Sanda champion and representative.
phillip is a choy lee fut and wing chun sift u can find videos if his students going a lot harder than that.

 

[Hanzou]

You think it's interesting watching Wing Chun novices with no stance , and no concept of the centerline?

Your easily entertained aren't ya champ.

So all of those guys I watched in all of those videos are novices?

That can't be correct.

 

[Hanzou]

So now we have differentiation. Kyokushin is not much like the original karate but is traditional but BJJ that is very similar to where the Gracies started out is modern. How does that work?

Because Kyokushin utilizes traditional techniques that they don't use within their fighting method solely for the purpose of preservation and tradition. Bjj has no techniques like that.

Mainly because Karate was from Okinawa and was exported to Japan and modified into the form of karate you see in Japan.

Still doesn't mean that an Okinawan Karate practitioner has more say on what is traditional karate than a Japanese or Korean Karate practitioner.

As to the bunkai, it is a basic stylised basic bunkai used as demonstration. I posted real hands on bunkai for you but you disregarded it as something you had not seen. Well the simple fact is you have never seen traditional Okinawan karate but you continue to try to disprove its existence. How strange is that.

And again, the point was that the entirety of Okinawan kata bunkai is NOT grappling and throws like you claimed it was.

And in Aikido as in karate we do not stop an attack. Stop one attack, another will start. Deflect the attack and use that moment to attack. That is the meaning of uke.

Deflecting an attack still constitutes blocking an attack. So yes, blocking does exist in karate, yet isn't present in sparring.

And this has nothing to do with karate. In Okinawa weapon training is kobudo, separate training.

It's called an analogy.

You showed nothing. You posted out of context video that supported your uninformed view.

I showed Karate Kata, and then I showed Karate sparring, and then made the argument that Karate sparring isn't matching Karate fighting. How is that out of context?

Quite the contrary. I say to all my karate students, if there is any technique you can't use in a real fight I will throw it out of our training. I haven't had to throw anything out yet. The fact that you would even say what you just said reflects badly on your knowledge and training.

Well unfortunately there is no video of your students sparring with these techniques. So we'll just have to take your word for it.

So why didn't the MT guy fight back? Why did he keep backing away? Not to mention the fact that there were not 'dozens of slaps'. And of course you put down the WC guy as not legit because he doesn't look or fight the way your instructor would fight. Well, I've got some news for you. A boxer doesn't look or fight like a sumo wrestler either, and I doubt either looks or fights like your instructor. So, which one is not legit? Pity you can't accept the value of all the different martial arts and move on without the continuous put downs.

Actually I put them both down. I said both were pretty terrible. I wouldn't hold up that video as an expression of either art's effectiveness.

I doubt it. They seemed effective enough in a sparring situation to me, especially when WC guys don't normally spar.

That's quite apparent.

Not all martial artists feel the need to post their training on YouTube. Just because it isn't on YouTube doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

So only the terrible and mediocre traditional martial artists post their training on YT while the "real" TMA stylists hide in the shadows?

And of course you are talking about training against a specialist grappler. Footwork all over the place obviously is in a sparring context. As I said sparring has no real place in our training. But thanks for your insight that CMA's are better than Karate in the way they train. Your ignorance of my martial art in particular continues to amaze.

I never said that CMAs are better than Karate. I simply said that CMA sparring more resembles the forms that they practice. That doesn't mean that CMA is more effective than Karate or vice versa.

 

[Hanzou]

It's cause his not wearing gloves... So he doesn't want to use fists

Amazon.com : UFC Practice Glove : Martial Arts Training Gloves : Sports & Outdoors

It would improve those hand techniques.

U would then find the people in that video...
jerry is a wing chun situ and a former Hong Kong Sanda champion and representative.
phillip is a choy lee fut and wing chun sift u can find videos if his students going a lot harder than that.

Would you happen to know the name of their schools/academies? That would be very helpful.

 

[drop bear]

You are using a strawman argument.



That is a hasty generalization. You have absolutely no idea whatsoever what the instructor (from Melbourne actually) has or hasn't done or 'proved' in any setting to be able to make that determination.

I am sure that Floyd Mayweather could look after himself in a fight and he has an impressive record but a closer inspection of his fight record shows that out of those 46 victories, only 26 of those are actually KO's, most of them TKO's and the rest are descisions. Oh and he is only undefeated as a Pro. A judges decision is not actually a win it is an unfinished fight that the judges decided on who was winning at the time. Also his wins were against other boxers in a boxing competition with specific rules and there were 46 boxers who lost.



In the 'street' a fight record, a belt, a title or a trophy means absolutely nothing.

No it is still accountability vs no accountability. I can find maywhethers fight record who he fought and how he won. And I can not find your instructors.

One has a proven fight record one does not.

And you can't compare the claims as equal. This is why people find tales of instructor superiority suspect.

 

[drop bear]

Traditional martial art.

Because again, they retain traditional techniques simply for preservation purposes. By contrast, I would consider Bjj a modern martial art because nothing we do in Bjj isn't used when we fight. We fight like we train.

So Bjj is modern, Kyokushin is traditional, despite Bjj being older than Kyokushin.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ApVxgHW5C5g

 

[Hanzou]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ApVxgHW5C5g

Hmm, that's actually better than my warm-up. Thanks for posting that.

 

[qianfeng]

Amazon.com : UFC Practice Glove : Martial Arts Training Gloves : Sports & Outdoors

It would improve those hand techniques.



Would you happen to know the name of their schools/academies? That would be very helpful.

I only know the one for philip ng
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/straightblast5/videos

Site: Ng Family Chinese Martial Arts Association

 

[RTKDCMB]

There's no taste in that guy's mouth anymore.

 

[Hanzou]

I only know the one for philip ng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVTQb2tvSkU&list=UUHKRCZotjbF9l_XWVsNoj_Q

Sigh.....

 

[RTKDCMB]

I can find maywhethers fight record who he fought and how he won. And I can not find your instructors.

Probably because the RTKD instructor does not compete in competitions to have a fight record.

This is why people find tales of instructor superiority suspect.

That is an argument for personal incredulity and a strawman, how efficient of you. I have never said that our intsructors are superior to anyone, only that they have been able to defend themselves in real situations on many occasions.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Because Kyokushin utilizes traditional techniques that they don't use within their fighting method solely for the purpose of preservation and tradition. Bjj has no techniques like that.

I showed Karate Kata, and then I showed Karate sparring, and then made the argument that Karate sparring isn't matching Karate fighting. How is that out of context?

Well unfortunately there is no video of your students sparring with these techniques. So we'll just have to take your word for it.

I never said that CMAs are better than Karate. I simply said that CMA sparring more resembles the forms that they practice. That doesn't mean that CMA is more effective than Karate or vice versa.

Perhaps you fail to realize that sparring and self defence are not actually the same thing.

 

[Steve]

Perhaps you fail to realize that sparring and self defence are not actually the same thing.

Strictly speaking, training of any kind is not actual self defense.

 

[RTKDCMB]

OK you make the claim your instructor fights better than mayweather. By your argument mayweather is undefeated. Your instructor is undefeated. More importantly mayweather is invited at any time to cross hands with your instructor in Perth and the fact he hasn't proves your instructors superiority.

The difference being that maywether has a proven fight record against the best in the world and you instructor has not.

Now if you wanted to take this to the street. That is fine but you would still need to demonstrate a proven fight record. This is not street vs sport. This accountability vs no accountability.

Some perspective:

I showed a 100 man Kumite (for charity where they are not trying to beat each other, just spar for 100 rounds).

I said to Hanzou;

No one has been able to get the better of one of our top students in one of our classes before. But hey you are more than welcome to come to one of our classes and test your hypothesis anytime you like.

You said to me;

You can't compare an unproven claim like your instructor has taken out an unknown quantity of challengers of unknown skill with no evidence. Against an evidence based claim like a professional fight record. Which is documented and recorded.

It is not the same thing.

Then;

OK you make the claim your instructor fights better than mayweather

Basically like saying 'my dad is going to beat you up". I made no claims whatsoever.