What is really the difference between TMA and MMA? False Dichotomy...

[drop bear]

We both know that the staff isn't the only ancient martial art weapon practiced.



Where did I say that traditional styles use NO modern training practices?



There's a pretty big difference between say shadow boxing/hitting the heavy bag/drilling, and doing a pre-arranged routine over and over again.



I doubt many traditional MA stylists/masters would be pleased with how MMA merges styles, drops techniques, and mashes everything together to the point where individual styles are almost lost completely.

And we are back to where either function follows form or form follows function.

 

[Steve]

We both know that the staff isn't the only ancient martial art weapon practiced.

Where did I say that traditional styles use NO modern training practices?

There's a pretty big difference between say shadow boxing/hitting the heavy bag/drilling, and doing a pre-arranged routine over and over again.

I doubt many traditional MA stylists/masters would be pleased with how MMA merges styles, drops techniques, and mashes everything together to the point where individual styles are almost lost completely.

I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding. It sounds like you consider the following to be key characteristics of a TMA: study of obsolete/ancient weaponry, a canon of forms/kata, preservation of a canon of techniques untainted by any outside influence, chambered punching, no training techniques younger than 1000 years old.

Honestly, you're making traditional sound more and more like historical, cultural reenactment than any martial art. I think that anyone training in a style that meets your criteria for TMA would have to do so for historical and/or cultural preservation over any practical, contemporary application. The only things that really come to mind are maybe Kyudo, perhaps Western fencing... or maybe more like the stuff that ARMA does... Wait.. they don't chamber punches. So... they're out.

 

[drop bear]

I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding. It sounds like you consider the following to be key characteristics of a TMA: study of obsolete/ancient weaponry, a canon of forms/kata, preservation of a canon of techniques untainted by any outside influence, chambered punching, no training techniques younger than 1000 years old.

Honestly, you're making traditional sound more and more like historical, cultural reenactment than any martial art. I think that anyone training in a style that meets your criteria for TMA would have to do so for historical and/or cultural preservation over any practical, contemporary application. The only things that really come to mind are maybe Kyudo, perhaps Western fencing... or maybe more like the stuff that ARMA does... Wait.. they don't chamber punches. So... they're out.

Actually people who do cultural reenactment are fairly contemporary. I think it is actually getting hit with a weapon that forces change a bit.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SLUnPwoA6Lo

 

[Hanzou]

I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding. It sounds like you consider the following to be key characteristics of a TMA: study of obsolete/ancient weaponry, a canon of forms/kata, preservation of a canon of techniques untainted by any outside influence, chambered punching, no training techniques younger than 1000 years old.

Honestly, you're making traditional sound more and more like historical, cultural reenactment than any martial art. I think that anyone training in a style that meets your criteria for TMA would have to do so for historical and/or cultural preservation over any practical, contemporary application. The only things that really come to mind are maybe Kyudo, perhaps Western fencing... or maybe more like the stuff that ARMA does... Wait.. they don't chamber punches. So... they're out.

Well, yes. Those who practice TMAs tend to be far more concerned about historical and cultural reenactment or preservation over martial proficiency. Look at how many TMA practitioners scoff at Mixed Martial Arts or Bjj for example. Nevermind that both MMA and Bjj have proven their effectiveness over and over again in several venues, which is partly why they're inching out many TMA schools around the world.

Its the same attitude that many traditional Jujitsu schools had towards Judo, ignoring the fact that Judo proved its effectiveness in several venues while many Jujitsu styles hid in the shadows and pointed fingers. I didn't see too many Jujitsu schools step up and take on a boxer like Gene Lebelle did back in the day. I didn't see too many Jujitsu schools step up and participate in NHB competitions like Vale Tudo like the Gracies did. No, its not about martial arts, its about retaining those ancient, mystical Asian practices because people think they're "magical".

The reverse punch is a prime example. Why train it over and over again? I've never seen anyone use it in a fight, and it simply isn't practical. Boxing/Kickboxing has given us far more practical and useful punches. If the goal is to train someone how to punch, why teach the reverse punch? Why not teach them general boxing techniques? By the same token, why are we wasting time learning katas when time would be better spent learning footwork and evasive techniques from boxing/kickboxing?

Keep in mind; It isn't always about age, its also about the mindset. Aikido is a pretty young art, but I would still label it a traditional MA because it has all the trappings of a TMA. Some Karate styles, Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean, would fall under that umbrella as well. Numerous older Jj styles would definitely fall under that label, especially the ones that revolve around weaponry. Iado is another one. Numerous CMA styles would definitely be considered TMA, and so forth.

 

[Steve]

Well, yes. Those who practice TMAs tend to be far more concerned about historical and cultural reenactment or preservation over martial proficiency. Look at how many TMA practitioners scoff at Mixed Martial Arts or Bjj for example. Nevermind that both MMA and Bjj have proven their effectiveness over and over again in several venues, which is partly why they're inching out many TMA schools around the world.

Its the same attitude that many traditional Jujitsu schools had towards Judo, ignoring the fact that Judo proved its effectiveness in several venues while many Jujitsu styles hid in the shadows and pointed fingers. I didn't see too many Jujitsu schools step up and take on a boxer like Gene Lebelle did back in the day. I didn't see too many Jujitsu schools step up and participate in NHB competitions like Vale Tudo like the Gracies did. No, its not about martial arts, its about retaining those ancient, mystical Asian practices because people think they're "magical".

The reverse punch is a prime example. Why train it over and over again? I've never seen anyone use it in a fight, and it simply isn't practical. Boxing/Kickboxing has given us far more practical and useful punches. If the goal is to train someone how to punch, why teach the reverse punch? Why not teach them general boxing techniques? By the same token, why are we wasting time learning katas when time would be better spent learning footwork and evasive techniques from boxing/kickboxing?

Keep in mind; It isn't always about age, its also about the mindset. Aikido is a pretty young art, but I would still label it a traditional MA because it has all the trappings of a TMA. Some Karate styles, Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean, would fall under that umbrella as well. Numerous older Jj styles would definitely fall under that label, especially the ones that revolve around weaponry. Iado is another one. Numerous CMA styles would definitely be considered TMA, and so forth.

Okay. Fair enough. It sounds like its' a matter of priorities, in your opinion. A TMA would focus on preserving the art as much as possible over maintaining efficacy of the techniques. In other words, it would be more important to do it the same way your instructor does it than to making any improvements or modifications to the style to adapt to changes in the world. A non-traditional art would be more willing to adapt and change. I can actually get behind this, if this is where you're headed.

EDIT: Want to add that this doesn't mean a style isn't effective. Just that preservation is the priority.

I still don't think it's possible to entirely preserve anything over time without completely immersing oneself in it. And even then, it's likely not going to be the same. What I mean is, even if you look at organizations like the Shaolin, just by virtue of existing in a modern world, our opinions, values and outlooks are informed by things that are different than our ancestors. Everything changes.

I like coffee, for example. I have about 14 or so coffee or espresso makers, representing about 9 or so completely different techniques to make coffee/espresso. I enjoy the low tech models as much or more than the high tech methods. But even though I own an obsolete, low tech coffee maker that is from the early 20th century, I am not making early 20th century coffee. The beans I buy are roasted differently are stored more efficiently and get to me far fresher than in the past. I grind them myself. The quality of my grinder is way better. The water I use is cleaner. Superficially, my experience is the same, but everything that informs the experience is shaped by the world in which we live.

In the same way, a guy studying any style of MA in the early 21st century may think he's studying a style in the same way they did 100 or more years ago, but any similarity is superficial.

 

[Steve]

Actually people who do cultural reenactment are fairly contemporary. I think it is actually getting hit with a weapon that forces change a bit.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SLUnPwoA6Lo

I am so happy I watched that video! I was smiling the entire way through. What's wrong with me?

 

[donnaTKD]

oh dear the diving around on that is disgraceful tbph

also wtf has football got to do with MMA vs TMA ????? football is for vanity fairy queens and Muay Thai (which is traditional) is for people that like blood, sweat and broken bones (tears)

don't think that i've ever seen an over payed "footballer" ever break sweat unlike anyone that trains martial arts..........

 

[drop bear]

oh dear the diving around on that is disgraceful tbph

also wtf has football got to do with MMA vs TMA ????? football is for vanity fairy queens and Muay Thai (which is traditional) is for people that like blood, sweat and broken bones (tears)

don't think that i've ever seen an over payed "footballer" ever break sweat unlike anyone that trains martial arts..........

Watch for more than 10 seconds.

 

[Steve]

Watch for more than 10 seconds.

Yeah. That was badass. Those guys were going for it. So fun...

 

[donnaTKD]

sorry for not watching it all the way through first time what an absolute riot - love it

medieval combat now that's something that MMA should be like a total free for all last man standing etc....... totally hilarious to watch also MMA should consider the use of weaponry as the next step forward --- imagine that in a cage proper cage rage

notice though that everyone was wearing chain mail suits - and the weaponry really hasn't ever changed much even now

i did see one guy looking at his tiny shield and then looking up at everyon else with big shields as if to say "i want more protection than this "

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Actually people who do cultural reenactment are fairly contemporary. I think it is actually getting hit with a weapon that forces change a bit.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SLUnPwoA6Lo

Boy, that brings back memories of Pennsic.

 

[Hanzou]

Okay. Fair enough. It sounds like its' a matter of priorities, in your opinion. A TMA would focus on preserving the art as much as possible over maintaining efficacy of the techniques. In other words, it would be more important to do it the same way your instructor does it than to making any improvements or modifications to the style to adapt to changes in the world. A non-traditional art would be more willing to adapt and change. I can actually get behind this, if this is where you're headed.

For the most part, yes. Like once again, the Reverse Punch. Why do some styles teach this technique? Its the conerstone of many TMA hand techniques, and I have yet to see it used on a regular basis. Karatekas train the Reverse punch almost as much as we train the Guard. However, in Bjj we use the Guard CONSTANTLY while fighting, but when I see Karatekas spar, or in competition, they're using what looks like boxing techniques. Clearly, they're training that punch because its part of their art's tradition, and preservation of tradition takes precedence over usefulness.

 

[drop bear]

sorry for not watching it all the way through first time what an absolute riot - love it

medieval combat now that's something that MMA should be like a total free for all last man standing etc....... totally hilarious to watch also MMA should consider the use of weaponry as the next step forward --- imagine that in a cage proper cage rage

notice though that everyone was wearing chain mail suits - and the weaponry really hasn't ever changed much even now

i did see one guy looking at his tiny shield and then looking up at everyon else with big shields as if to say "i want more protection than this "

There was an idea to put a hema fight on an undercard once. Not sure how it went.

 

[donnaTKD]

it'd be interesting to know if there's any footage of it to see just how bad/brutal it got

my guess is that it wouldn't have been all that exciting cos in the footage it was more of a brawl with swords and shields

 

[jezr74]

Actually people who do cultural reenactment are fairly contemporary. I think it is actually getting hit with a weapon that forces change a bit.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SLUnPwoA6Lo

Hilarious, so what are the swords made of? Guessing not steel by the way they were swinging and hitting each other? Some sort of softer, lighter alloy?

 

[RTKDCMB]

There's a pretty big difference between say shadow boxing/hitting the heavy bag/drilling, and doing a pre-arranged routine over and over again.

Which is why many traditional martial arts do both.

 

[Hanzou]

Which is why many traditional martial arts do both.

If you say so..... :shrug:

If we're talking about a traditional system, the emphasis would be on katas and forms.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If you say so..... :shrug:

If we're talking about a traditional system, the emphasis would be on katas and forms.

So you don't think traditional martial arts do shadow sparring and bag/pad work?:idunno:

 

[K-man]

Well, yes. Those who practice TMAs tend to be far more concerned about historical and cultural reenactment or preservation over martial proficiency. Look at how many TMA practitioners scoff at Mixed Martial Arts or Bjj for example. Nevermind that both MMA and Bjj have proven their effectiveness over and over again in several venues, which is partly why they're inching out many TMA schools around the world.

I don't believe many MAs scoff at MMA or BJJ. Why would they?

Its the same attitude that many traditional Jujitsu schools had towards Judo, ignoring the fact that Judo proved its effectiveness in several venues while many Jujitsu styles hid in the shadows and pointed fingers. I didn't see too many Jujitsu schools step up and take on a boxer like Gene Lebelle did back in the day. I didn't see too many Jujitsu schools step up and participate in NHB competitions like Vale Tudo like the Gracies did. No, its not about martial arts, its about retaining those ancient, mystical Asian practices because people think they're "magical".

Could it possibly be because those MAs aren't interested in competition?

The reverse punch is a prime example. Why train it over and over again? I've never seen anyone use it in a fight, and it simply isn't practical. Boxing/Kickboxing has given us far more practical and useful punches. If the goal is to train someone how to punch, why teach the reverse punch? Why not teach them general boxing techniques? By the same token, why are we wasting time learning katas when time would be better spent learning footwork and evasive techniques from boxing/kickboxing?

Whether it's practical or not, we don't train it at all so why would you say that. Even the Japanese Goju fighting stance is almost the same as a boxer's. And, you derogatory comment on kata demonstrates your total ignorance of what kata is.

Keep in mind; It isn't always about age, its also about the mindset. Aikido is a pretty young art, but I would still label it a traditional MA because it has all the trappings of a TMA. Some Karate styles, Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean, would fall under that umbrella as well. Numerous older Jj styles would definitely fall under that label, especially the ones that revolve around weaponry. Iado is another one. Numerous CMA styles would definitely be considered TMA, and so forth.

How do you define traditional? If something is quite different from where it began, like Shotokan for instance, how is that different to BJJ?

For the most part, yes. Like once again, the Reverse Punch. Why do some styles teach this technique? Its the conerstone of many TMA hand techniques, and I have yet to see it used on a regular basis. Karatekas train the Reverse punch almost as much as we train the Guard. However, in Bjj we use the Guard CONSTANTLY while fighting, but when I see Karatekas spar, or in competition, they're using what looks like boxing techniques. Clearly, they're training that punch because its part of their art's tradition, and preservation of tradition takes precedence over usefulness.

You have no idea of karate training and this post demonstrates that yet again. Not all karate has competition. None of your comments apply to my traditional training.

Generally what you find in the more sport-based styles like boxing, or MMA. No forms, no chambered punching, no training with ancient weaponry.

So by this definition Kyokushin karate and Shotokan karate are where?

We both know that the staff isn't the only ancient martial art weapon practiced.

Where did I say that traditional styles use NO modern training practices?

There's a pretty big difference between say shadow boxing/hitting the heavy bag/drilling, and doing a pre-arranged routine over and over again.

I doubt many traditional MA stylists/masters would be pleased with how MMA merges styles, drops techniques, and mashes everything together to the point where individual styles are almost lost completely.

Perhaps you should drop into a traditional dojo some time. And by the way, our prearranged routine is very similar to your drill, if it is taught correctly.

If you say so..... :shrug:

If we're talking about a traditional system, the emphasis would be on katas and forms.

And when you consider that a kata is a fighting system, why wouldn't we put a lot of emphasis on that? Are you even aware that traditional karate is basically a grappling art!

 

[drop bear]

Hilarious, so what are the swords made of? Guessing not steel by the way they were swinging and hitting each other? Some sort of softer, lighter alloy?

Nope. steel I believe.