What is Phan Ku Ryu Jujitsu?

[Kage-Ronin]

WELL I am coming to this thread WAY late, better late than never I suppose....

Anyway I also am a student at the dojo mentioned, have been so for 3 years on and off (mostly off due to deployment schedule).

SO having said that, there were some questions about the style and history?

I don't know as much as I would like to, but I will share what I know.

 

[william_badders]

Phan-ku Ryu Jujitsu gets its name from when the Col. was in China during WWII. He was a prison guard to Japanese soldiers some how he made friends with one of the Japanese and they taught him there family RYU or style of Jujitsu. Col. Miles also study Judo in the 30's before he went in to the military. Col. Miles is a 3 War vet. Like others have said if you want to know about it or see if it is the real deal go and try a class Mike is one of the most humble individuals I have ever met. He teaches not for the money just for the love of the art.

 

[Falconflyer]

Like a few others who have commented on this most lenghty of threads, I too am a student of Phan Ku Ryu. I was amused by the fact that even after another website did a favorable review of our style, many were still not satisfied. The other website was childishly disparaged and what it claimed about our roots were still held in doubt by some. Yes, the Colonel studied under Masato and a Japanese POW. I also couldn't believe that 4 of the pages of this thread were arguing over a "u" vs. an "i". Really? Chris Parker, you did make a great comment though regarding one of the other Phan Ku student's posts. The guy took the time to post an answer to the original question, and he was blown off as unreliable by elder999. ??? How do I know that anything elder999 says is reliable on this site?? He posts a lot? No, I just trust that he would take the time to come on this site to provide reliable info. All that aside, yes, the Colonel gave us an unusual name, but who the heck cares! I invite any of one of you internet grand masters who come from styles that have the correct letter in the name of their style, and whose styles were reviewed favorably by the correct website, to stop by the Corpus Christi school (Asian Academy of Martial Arts, Sunrise Mall, second floor), and step out onto the mat with John, Paul, or Merell. (the other students who have posted on this thread are from Mike's school across the bay) Names and lineage aside, the proof is in the pudding. This is a serious invitation. Please introduce yourself. No ill will here. I would like to meet you. Perhaps you'll kick our *** and this debate will be settled once and for all. Thank you for your time.

 

[elder999]

. The guy took the time to post an answer to the original question, and he was blown off as unreliable by elder999. ??? How do I know that anything elder999 says is reliable on this site?? He posts a lot? No, I just trust that he would take the time to come on this site to provide reliable info..

 

[Falconflyer]

Hey man, when you post on the internet, it's there forever, for all too see. No statute of limitations. Besides, if these posts are not to be commented on any longer, why are they still left on the site and not deleted after a certain period of time? If they're still here, and the "reply" feature is still active, it's fair game.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Falconflyer,

Like a few others who have commented on this most lenghty of threads, I too am a student of Phan Ku Ryu.

Cool, good to have you aboard.

I was amused by the fact that even after another website did a favorable review of our style, many were still not satisfied. The other website was childishly disparaged and what it claimed about our roots were still held in doubt by some.

Well, the concerns were not overtly about the effectiveness of the system itself, they were more that the origin story seemed to have more than a few holes in it, including the unusual name, and a number of aspects that don't gel with anyone that knows about Japanese culture. You may notice that when Naosuke put down which site had a good review, it was censored on our site here. The reason is that that particular site tends to lead to rather too many headaches, including legal threats and so forth, so that tends to have us not really take it as definitive.

Yes, the Colonel studied under Masato and a Japanese POW.

If he did study under Masato, the timing would indicate the term "judo" rather than "jujutsu", and it would seem highly unlikely that a Japanese POW would teach one of his captors. To the Japanese way of thinking being captured is the greatest humiliation that they can suffer, so they expect to be treated incredibly badly (which also explains their treatment of POW soldiers under the Japanese), and would not be wanting to "help" the enemy. There's more, but I think the general idea is there. This claim isn't impossible, but it is incredibly unlikely. Would there be any evidence that can be presented, photos, documentation etc?

I also couldn't believe that 4 of the pages of this thread were arguing over a "u" vs. an "i". Really?

Er, yes. Really. Arnisador asked about "jitsu" versus "jutsu" back in 2002, was told the correct pronunciation, and has argued it since then. Don't really know why....

Chris Parker, you did make a great comment though regarding one of the other Phan Ku student's posts. The guy took the time to post an answer to the original question, and he was blown off as unreliable by elder999. ???

Well, in Elders defence, Naosuke came on, made two posts, and then never returned to answer any questions that he said he was here to clear up. His entire history on this site consists of those two posts on this thread, leaving after I posted a responce. So if Elder was going to "blow him off as unreliable", this could be one reason. But that's a supposition on my part, really. I just didn't think Naosuke had given us enough to know if he was reliable or not yet, and it seems like he never will. Pity.

How do I know that anything elder999 says is reliable on this site?? He posts a lot? No, I just trust that he would take the time to come on this site to provide reliable info.

We have features such as the "rep" system (reputation, the little green [or sometimes red] dots), as well as the "Thanks" system. So while not perfect, you can get a sense of how members are thought of here, and an unknown quantity (including yourself at this point) is just that: unknown. But an established member, whether you know them or not, is known.

But so you know, in cases such as this it is not uncommon for individuals to sign up under a variety of names to post positive reviews/comments giving the impression of a number of people. This has extended up the instructors/heads of systems, as well as devotees of certain less-than-credible groups and teachers. So until Naosuke became a known quantity, he would be subject to this very scrutiny. This is the same for everyone here, by the way, unless you already had an established reputation from another site or otherwise.

All that aside, yes, the Colonel gave us an unusual name, but who the heck cares!

Well, the aspect of caring is less than recognising the message that such a name gives. On one hand we are presented with a man who is US Military, studied a Japanese system (Judo), ostensibly learnt another system (also Japanese), and then gave his expression of this a name which is Chinese (Phan Ku) combined with Japanese terminology (Ryu, Jujutsu). That is typically an indication of less-than-legitimate systems as there is nothing in the given history that explains this name.

To give you an idea, it's like claiming you learnt under the great French chefs, then naming your "French"-style restaurant Le Pizza Shoppe. Not somewhere I would expect to get great French cuisine.

I invite any of one of you internet grand masters who come from styles that have the correct letter in the name of their style, and whose styles were reviewed favorably by the correct website, to stop by the Corpus Christi school (Asian Academy of Martial Arts, Sunrise Mall, second floor), and step out onto the mat with John, Paul, or Merell. (the other students who have posted on this thread are from Mike's school across the bay)

Friendly word here: This could be taken as a challenge. Such things are not kindly looked on. Just so you know.

Really, the tone here has gotten a little aggressive, and you seem to be missing the point. The issue was never "is Phan Ku Ryu an effective system?", it was more asking about the legitimacy of the history. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to find that your technical side of things is good (particularly if it is based on older Judo training forms, which is looking more and more like the case), but that doesn't explain the odd name and certain gaps in the story.

Names and lineage aside, the proof is in the pudding. This is a serious invitation. Please introduce yourself. No ill will here. I would like to meet you. Perhaps you'll kick our *** and this debate will be settled once and for all.

These short, choppy sentences actually say there is ill will here, or at least aggression (most likely at an assumed slight or offence), just so you know. Again, you are still an unknown quantity here, you my be one of the most knowledgable people on this board, but we don't know that yet. As we continue, we will learn more about you, and you will learn about us, and hopefully you will see that such a tact is not necessary, nor indeed well advised, or even realistic (I live in Melbourne, Australia, so I'm hardly likely to take up your "invitation", such as it is).

I never quite get why people get all bent out of shape when their history is called into question like this, and they always resort to "Well, it works, and if you don't believe that, come and try us, see if you can beat us!". That really isn't the issue here at all. I might turn up and beat everyone you have there, it doesn't prove or disprove the history issues. I might turn up and get beaten by everyone there, it doesn't prove or disprove the history issues. And hiding behind "The Col. was a 3 War Veteran" really isn't a defence, as that is completely removed from the issue (I know that wasn't you, but it has come up in this thread). The implication is "well, I respect him, therefore I believe what he tells me, so you should too", when there have been many veterans (and claimed "veterans") who have been less-than-factual in their claims.

But to be completely accurate here, non-legit systems can be highly effective, and a range of traditional systems can be far less practical, particularly in this day and age, so to say that the "proof is in the pudding" and that someone kicking someones *** will settle any debate is missing the issue itself. All that shows is the technical side of the system, not anything to do with legitimacy issues.

Thank you for your time.

Thanks for joining in.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hi Falconflyer,

How do you know the mind of every single japanese POW durring the war?

You know generalizations based on history and your time with the Japanese but you were not there with the founder of this Ryu so you don't know. You can guess but its just that a guess. (You can also rightly or wrongly guess the founder is full of it.)

Maybe the prisoner in question was not a sheeple? Maybe after expecting to be tortured and being treated fairly he kind of liked Americans?

Maybe he was educated in the US or Europe before the war and allready had adopted some western ways of thinking?

Maybe he saw the guard practice what he knew, made a suggestion and then a training exchange was born.

And not every Japanese was a Judoka, maybe he had a family style and he called it Jujutsu? Maybe he did Judo, but like Maeda was more into the combative aspects of Judo so therefore called what e was teaching Jujutsu because he was not teaching codifeid Judo or Judo philosphy?

You do not know, you are assuming and when you do that about someone elses art while in an active conversation with them, then you need to tread lightly.

As for the challenge. It was done with respect and without threats and I see the posters point. Stop talking and come see and feel.

Because this school might teach Jujutsu better than a school with nice clean lines of lineage. I've trained with people with nice, proper lineages that could not fight.

Sure we spell it Jujutsu out of respect for the Japanese orgins and because we know Jiu Jitsu is a basterdization. Our art has enough old school Japanese technique still in it that we feel Jujutsu is still the proper term for us. We call our core art Armatura Jujutsu we take the
Traditional and combat Jujutsu we studied under our former Ryu, a mix of the following -Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Kodo Kai (Japan) Icho Yama Ryu Aiki Jujutsu (USA) a mix of 2 Koryu's (Japan), Miyama Ryu Jujutsu (USA) Aikido and Judo (Japan) along with H2H from other sources. We also add simple CQC and Pekiti Tarsia into our curriculem. We though of just calling it Armatura or whatever but it's still mostly Jujutsu. If I called it Armatura then I'd get flak like "He's doing modified Jujutsu there." or "That was stairt out of Daito Ryu." We collessed our system from our studies but we did not invent anything, most who found schools and new styles are not really inventing anything from scratch anyways. This way the name is as honest as one can get and not be laime. " We study Ultradeth!." We study Daito Icho Yama Ryu- Woodbridge Kai Aiki Jujutsu." EECK!

Simply Armatura Jujutsu.

All the same I dont care that the guy down the road spells it Jiu Jitsu, it's his deal and he is good at what he does.

I can see why you are so hyper technical Chris, but you need to leave some room for the extrapulations and honest mistakes of others.

Hell the Japanese get confussed themselves.

 

[elder999]

Like a few others who have commented on this most lenghty of threads, I too am a student of Phan Ku Ryu. I was amused by the fact that even after another website did a favorable review of our style, many were still not satisfied.

I didn't do that

The other website was childishly disparaged and what it claimed about our roots were still held in doubt by some. Yes, the Colonel studied under Masato

To which I replied could cover the whole "as close as it gets to a samurai family." I also said it was interesting-never said it wasn't true, or couldn't be-just that we didn't know one way or the other, based on something someone said on another site, or someone we don't know and could even be the Colonel himself posting here.

Chris's statements about the rep system aside, if you look inmy profile. you'll see my real name-everyone here who wants to knows exactly who I am, and where I came from. They also know that I don't care, as some others do, whether or not an art was created in this century, the last one, or last week-it does matter that the founder's story and credentials can be verified, to me, anyway. In Miyama ryu jujutsu we have pictures of the founder studying with the people he says he studied with, certificates from those people, and, as in the case of your art, more than 40 years of teaching the same art in the same place. In fact, I posted this:

I don't know that they were "disparaging," and not merely pointing out the difference between what they do and what some people might expect-though, if they're modeling their training on Japanese jujutsu training, saying that they have no "katas" is probably somewhat misleading. As for legitimacy, they say up front that the art is the creation of a Lt. Col. Mark A Miles. This doesn't mean that they're not teaching something useful, and it doesn't mean that they are-the only way to find that out is, as Tez said, to check it out yourself. It in does mean that they're probably not connected to any Japanese jujutsu in any but the most marginal of ways, and probably not connected with any historically "legitimate" martial arts governing body or style.

It also means that they've been pretty honest so far: no secret lineage, no mystery.......

ALmost all in your defense, on the first page: for all to see for all time, as you pointed out, or at least until there's a crash or Bob purges threads...

All that aside, yes, the Colonel gave us an unusual name, but who the heck cares!

Well, names mean something. People care. In the end, maybe it doesn't mean much-maybe it means a lot.

I invite any of one of you internet grand masters who come from styles that have the correct letter in the name of their style, and whose styles were reviewed favorably by the correct website, to stop by the Corpus Christi school (Asian Academy of Martial Arts, Sunrise Mall, second floor), and step out onto the mat with John, Paul, or Merell. (the other students who have posted on this thread are from Mike's school across the bay) Names and lineage aside, the proof is in the pudding. This is a serious invitation. Please introduce yourself. No ill will here. I would like to meet you. Perhaps you'll kick our *** and this debate will be settled once and for all. Thank you for your time.

This is just silly, and possibly a violation of the rules here. THanks for joining in, though....

 

[MJS]

What I always find interesting, is when a topic is started on an art, and suddenly, a bunch of 'defenders of the art' pop onto the forum. This is fine, however, those folks need to adhere to the forum rules.

FalconFlyer,

You are new to the forum, and agreed to the forum rules, which can be found here. Take note of sec. 1.8. I suggest that you re-read them, as part of your last post, could be taken as a challenge, which results in a ban here. If that is not how you intended your post, then perhaps you should be a bit more cautious with your wording.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin

 

[frank raud]

OK everybody... I joined this forum just to answer this thread. I study at the PhanKu Ryu Dojo in Aransas (the one on the website). It is Japanese jujitsu, Col. Miles developed his own "style" when fighting in WWII (i believe), but was originally taught by a "samurai" family (as close as u can get these days) while living in Japan. His father also studied traditional jujitsu. We aren't trying to offend when we say we don't do kata, we just want to be straight forward with our style of learning. All jujitsu schools are this way, guys. As for the Chinese/Japanese name, i'm not really sure... just a funny name i guess... Anyhoo, this is a credible style. Sensei Mike is one HARDCORE mofo. Look up the review of our school on **************

Oddly enough, their website, which gives very little info, says Col. Miles started at the Jiu jitsu Institute of Chicago in 1938, which is the first year that club opened. Know what they teach at the Jiu Jitsu institute?

Judo and Jiu Jitsu (their spelling) http://www.jjichicago.com/

 

[Falconflyer]

What I always find interesting, is when a topic is started on an art, and suddenly, a bunch of 'defenders of the art' pop onto the forum. This is fine, however, those folks need to adhere to the forum rules.

FalconFlyer,

You are new to the forum, and agreed to the forum rules, which can be found here. Take note of sec. 1.8. I suggest that you re-read them, as part of your last post, could be taken as a challenge, which results in a ban here. If that is not how you intended your post, then perhaps you should be a bit more cautious with your wording.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin

This is great fun! I'm beginning to see why some of you have a billion posts. Anyway...

If a thread is started asking about an unknown art, who would you then suggest "pop onto the forum" to answer questions about said art? The first and most logical answer that pops into my head is people who study that style and can answer the questions about it. Doesn't seem particularly interesting to me. Seems like the obvious result.

As far as the "challenge", I can't control how you interpret it. I would assume that if you came to our class to learn about our style, you would participate in the class. That would involve stepping out onto the mat because that's where we pratice; on a mat (several actually). But maybe you would just sit on the side and watch, I don't know. I thought I was pretty polite, and so did Julius Ceasar (thanks Dude!). I'll watch my wording in the future so as not to skirt the fine line between invite and challenge.

 

[Falconflyer]

.

Chris's statements about the rep system aside, if you look inmy profile. you'll see my real name-everyone here who wants to knows exactly who I am, and where I came from.


If you reread my original post,you'll see I wasn't questioning your credentials. I was actually defending them. My point was that if someone takes the time to post something on here, my first assumption is that they're here to help, and not deceive. That's whether that have 14,000 posts on here or 6. There's a real good chance that people will happen upon these threads in the course of a Google search, actually knows something about what is being discusses in the thread, and offer their knowledge (as in my case). And that's probably how the other guys ended up here too. That's all.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Gaius,

I'll answer your comments, if you don't mind, and use them to answer a few other things...

How do you know the mind of every single japanese POW durring the war?

You know generalizations based on history and your time with the Japanese but you were not there with the founder of this Ryu so you don't know. You can guess but its just that a guess. (You can also rightly or wrongly guess the founder is full of it.)

No, you know I don't know the mind of every POW, however I do have some little understanding on the Japanese mind set. And that has some bearing on the story being presented here.

Maybe the prisoner in question was not a sheeple? Maybe after expecting to be tortured and being treated fairly he kind of liked Americans?

Maybe he was educated in the US or Europe before the war and allready had adopted some western ways of thinking?

Maybe he saw the guard practice what he knew, made a suggestion and then a training exchange was born.

Well, this is not impossible, but it is incredibly unlikely (in fact I believe I actually said that exact thing: "This claim isn't impossible, but it is incredibly unlikely. Would there be any evidence that can be presented, photos, documentation etc?"

To let you know, though, the most probable/common way a Japanese POW would see ther captor who did not treat them badly would be with no respect. If, however, we are talking more about some of the internment camps in the US during WWII, then the story has more likelihood. But that is not the way it's presented here.

In fact, the story has so far gone from "a fighting Art based on sound Jujitsu principles and sixty-five years of real life study and development by founder Lt.Col Mark A. Miles, for use on the battlefield and later adapted for civilian use" to " It is Japanese jujitsu, Col. Miles developed his own "style" when fighting in WWII (i believe), but was originally taught by a "samurai" family (as close as u can get these days) while living in Japan. His father also studied traditional jujitsu" (bringing in a "samurai" family decades after the samurai as a class were abolished while in Japan) to "the Bullshido post he mentioned links the founding to Masato Naruse of Kosen Judo" (which is taking us away from the "samurai"family in Japan, or jujutsu, and into Judo) to "Phan-ku Ryu Jujitsu gets its name from when the Col. was in China during WWII. He was a prison guard to Japanese soldiers some how he made friends with one of the Japanese and they taught him there family RYU or style of Jujitsu. Col. Miles also study Judo in the 30's before he went in to the military" (here we bring in another country, and get a possible explaination for the mixed name of the system, but also contradicts the story we already have) to "Oddly enough, their website, which gives very little info, says Col. Miles started at the Jiu jitsu Institute of Chicago in 1938, which is the first year that club opened. Know what they teach at the Jiu Jitsu institute?" Now here's where it gets a little more confusing... The Jiu Jitsu institute mentions "traditional jiujitsu" (again their spelling...), although every single reference is to Judo, specifically Kodokan Judo. And the head instructor there was Masato Tamura, not Masato Naruse of Kosen Judo. Hmm.

My big question is simple here. We have names for the Judo lineage (although that seems to change depending on who we listen to...), but this Japanese POW (who may have been in Japan or China....) hasn't been given any name, nor a name given to his system. And the Japanese really don't just have generic "oh, this is just my family style" martial arts, they are always named, and typically well-documented. I understand that if this was learnt from a POW there may not have been much documentation for Col. Miles, however the system he learnt should be able to be traced in Japan. The only ones that can't have been bogus, frankly.

So, do we have a name for the POW or the system he taught?



And not every Japanese was a Judoka, maybe he had a family style and he called it Jujutsu? Maybe he did Judo, but like Maeda was more into the combative aspects of Judo so therefore called what e was teaching Jujutsu because he was not teaching codifeid Judo or Judo philosphy?

Well, first off it really should be recognised that Judo really is just another form of jujutsu... Maeda, from memory, was part of the Kosen Judo movement (pretty literally "High School Judo"), which had a greater emphasis on ground fighting and competition. As for not every Japanese was a Judoka, never suggested they were. Just that every bit of evidence we have seen so far is that Col. Miles probably learnt Judo, and maybe a timy smattering of something else.

You do not know, you are assuming and when you do that about someone elses art while in an active conversation with them, then you need to tread lightly.

Oh, this was very light. I had friendly words, explainations, the whole thing. But there are also questions that have yet to be answered.

As for the challenge. It was done with respect and without threats and I see the posters point. Stop talking and come see and feel.

When phrases such as "any of you internet grandmasters with the correct letters in your name.." etc are used, that is a veiled hostility, and is read as such. It is not respect, it is anger and pride. It is also highly impractical when dealing with an internet-based readership and membership.

Because this school might teach Jujutsu better than a school with nice clean lines of lineage. I've trained with people with nice, proper lineages that could not fight.

Yes, and I believe this is pretty much what I said as well. There is no comment (either for or against) the effectiveness of the system's teachings itself (which is also why the challenge to "come and see for yourself" isn't really relevant), just in the historical issues and odd choice of naming. To quote myself, as you may have missed this (although you were responding to this post itself): But to be completely accurate here, non-legit systems can be highly effective, and a range of traditional systems can be far less practical, particularly in this day and age, so to say that the "proof is in the pudding" and that someone kicking someones *** will settle any debate is missing the issue itself. All that shows is the technical side of the system, not anything to do with legitimacy issues.

Sure we spell it Jujutsu out of respect for the Japanese orgins and because we know Jiu Jitsu is a basterdization. Our art has enough old school Japanese technique still in it that we feel Jujutsu is still the proper term for us. We call our core art Armatura Jujutsu we take the
Traditional and combat Jujutsu we studied under our former Ryu, a mix of the following -Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Kodo Kai (Japan) Icho Yama Ryu Aiki Jujutsu (USA) a mix of 2 Koryu's (Japan), Miyama Ryu Jujutsu (USA) Aikido and Judo (Japan) along with H2H from other sources. We also add simple CQC and Pekiti Tarsia into our curriculem. We though of just calling it Armatura or whatever but it's still mostly Jujutsu. If I called it Armatura then I'd get flak like "He's doing modified Jujutsu there." or "That was stairt out of Daito Ryu." We collessed our system from our studies but we did not invent anything, most who found schools and new styles are not really inventing anything from scratch anyways. This way the name is as honest as one can get and not be laime. " We study Ultradeth!." We study Daito Icho Yama Ryu- Woodbridge Kai Aiki Jujutsu." EECK!

Okay, not really sure how you've turned this into a personal attack on your system here... But so you know, I'd probably be fairly skeptical of the way this is described here as well. Taking a range of disparate sources like this and putting them together is kind of like taking all your favourite scenes out of your favourite films and putting them together... then wondering why the film makes no sense.

Gandalf and Eomer ride down the hill to Helm's Deep to come to the aid of Aragorn, turing the tide long enough for Han Solo to swoop down in the Milennium Falcon, blowing Tie Fighters out of Luke's way and sending Vader spinning off into space. However at the celebrations that night, the party is interupted by the Joker asking if anyone knows how he got his scars, and where's Harvey Dent? Hmm, doesn't make a lot of sense....

The mention of two Koryu systems is a little odd as well, the study of Koryu tends to not lend itself to such a set up. Which ones, out of interest?

Simply Armatura Jujutsu.

All the same I dont care that the guy down the road spells it Jiu Jitsu, it's his deal and he is good at what he does.

I can see why you are so hyper technical Chris, but you need to leave some room for the extrapulations and honest mistakes of others.

I'm always more than happy to allow for errors, provided room is also allowed for the errors to be corrected, in myself as well as others.

Hell the Japanese get confussed themselves.

In what, might I ask?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Maybe he saw the guard practice what he knew, made a suggestion and then a training exchange was born.

Do you have first hand experience Japanese culture? Because the people whom I know with first hand experience, agree that this sort of thing only happens in western novels or hollywood movies.

Because this school might teach Jujutsu better than a school with nice clean lines of lineage. I've trained with people with nice, proper lineages that could not fight.

Chris already indicated that this discussion was not about whether the training was effective or not. The discussion was about whether the claimed lineage checks out.

Given that it is culturally very unlikely that he would have been trained like that, and that 'Phan' is not Japanese and Phan Ku Ryu is not a known Japanese style, there is at least good reason to have strong doubts.

This is like saying Dux Ryu is legit because their fighters can fight.

 

[MJS]

This is great fun! I'm beginning to see why some of you have a billion posts. Anyway...

A billion posts? Hardly. I've been a member here for 7yrs. I do try to make a certain number of posts each week, to contribute to the forum. However, I'm not quite following your comment here. If you're referring to the note/warning that I posted, well, that is my job here...to police the forum. The rules are in place for everyone. If someone is having a hard time following them, they will most likely either have to change their ways or they will soon find themselves removed from the forum.

If a thread is started asking about an unknown art, who would you then suggest "pop onto the forum" to answer questions about said art? The first and most logical answer that pops into my head is people who study that style and can answer the questions about it. Doesn't seem particularly interesting to me. Seems like the obvious result.

Let me clarify. Many times, when a thread is started on a subject that isn't well known, and if the comments are not always positive, many times, students of that art, will join up, for the sole purpose of causing trouble. Its one thing if someone joins up to clarify something, and does it in a respectful fashion, but its another if someone is joining to cause issues. This forum is open to anyone, however, we do have rules in place, and do require everyone to follow them.

As far as the "challenge", I can't control how you interpret it. I would assume that if you came to our class to learn about our style, you would participate in the class. That would involve stepping out onto the mat because that's where we pratice; on a mat (several actually). But maybe you would just sit on the side and watch, I don't know. I thought I was pretty polite, and so did Julius Ceasar (thanks Dude!). I'll watch my wording in the future so as not to skirt the fine line between invite and challenge.

Actually, you can control how people interpret it, by being sure to pick your wording carefully. That post in question was reported to the mods here, it was reviewed and decided that it was not a challenge.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

A billion posts? Hardly. I've been a member here for 7yrs. I do try to make a certain number of posts each week, to contribute to the forum. However, I'm not quite following your comment here. If you're referring to the note/warning that I posted, well, that is my job here...to police the forum. The rules are in place for everyone. If someone is having a hard time following them, they will most likely either have to change their ways or they will soon find themselves removed from the forum.



Let me clarify. Many times, when a thread is started on a subject that isn't well known, and if the comments are not always positive, many times, students of that art, will join up, for the sole purpose of causing trouble. Its one thing if someone joins up to clarify something, and does it in a respectful fashion, but its another if someone is joining to cause issues. This forum is open to anyone, however, we do have rules in place, and do require everyone to follow them.



Actually, you can control how people interpret it, by being sure to pick your wording carefully. That post in question was reported to the mods here, it was reviewed and decided that it was not a challenge.

He was polite, he was just inviting those who know so much about his art to come train it. Being a Martial art and maybe even more combative than many of the half dead or reconstructed arts everyone is so concerned with being linked to here.

I think half of you are just all huffy because he did the nice way of saying "Put up or shut up." So agree to dissagree or go on down and train with the man.

I'd be amazed if half of the posters here trained more than 2 hours a week and I'd be amazed if a quarter of them could actually fight.
There are some great martial artist and dedicated artist on this board both in od school systems and modern ones. But we have alot of Martial Nerds, folks with big heads but I bet dont have the abiltiy to fight of a Smurf. (Then again those little blue basterds can get under your center and...?)

Yes, lineage is important for historical reasons but it's not to important to results. One of the best things about MMA, Krav Maga and CQC is it shows outside people you don't have to suck up to some Asian master for years to learn how to fight. You dont need premission from someone across the World to start a school and get on with training. The real worth is what kind of students you put out.

Intent in training trumps old dead Samurai scrolls anyday.
And I say that as someone who did Daito Ryu Kodo Kai for 12 years and had to hear all the "Well he was not really..""He never learned from..." "This is the true..."
Hey got some great techniques, developed better sensativity and a bettr understanding of internal JJ but I never cared beyoned that.

 

[MJS]

He was polite, he was just inviting those who know so much about his art to come train it. Being a Martial art and maybe even more combative than many of the half dead or reconstructed arts everyone is so concerned with being linked to here.

I think half of you are just all huffy because he did the nice way of saying "Put up or shut up." So agree to dissagree or go on down and train with the man.

I'd be amazed if half of the posters here trained more than 2 hours a week and I'd be amazed if a quarter of them could actually fight.
There are some great martial artist and dedicated artist on this board both in od school systems and modern ones. But we have alot of Martial Nerds, folks with big heads but I bet dont have the abiltiy to fight of a Smurf. (Then again those little blue basterds can get under your center and...?)

Yes, lineage is important for historical reasons but it's not to important to results. One of the best things about MMA, Krav Maga and CQC is it shows outside people you don't have to suck up to some Asian master for years to learn how to fight. You dont need premission from someone across the World to start a school and get on with training. The real worth is what kind of students you put out.

Intent in training trumps old dead Samurai scrolls anyday.
And I say that as someone who did Daito Ryu Kodo Kai for 12 years and had to hear all the "Well he was not really..""He never learned from..." "This is the true..."
Hey got some great techniques, developed better sensativity and a bettr understanding of internal JJ but I never cared beyoned that.

Sir,

The forum rules here are not up for debate, nor am I going to debate them with you. However, since you addressed my mild warning, let me clarify something.

The post in question was reported, due to the possibility of it being a challenge. Here are the rules:

"1.8 Threats, Racism, Sexism, and Challenges:


Messages that are openly hostile, defamatory, sexual, vulgar, or harassing, will not be tolerated, and may be in violation of the law. Threads or replies promoting or expressing intolerant views towards any group (race, religion, sexual preference, interracial couples, etc.) will not be tolerated.

No "physical challenge" posts are allowed. If there is a threat or physical challenge, real or perceived, issued, the person making said threat will be immediately banned from this board with no warning or recourse."

As I said, this was reviewed by the forum mods, and it was decided that it was not a challenge. I suggested to the OP of that post, to pick his words carefully. Anyone who joins this forum, agrees to the rules. If they fail to read them or choose to ignore them, that is not my issue. Its something everyone, staff included, agreed to. Failure to adhere to them, will result in eventual suspension and/or removal of their account. Anyone who disagrees with the rules, is free to go elsewhere, if they're not happy.

As for the rest of your post, I have no desire to train with that person, or anyone else in that art. I'm more than happy with what I currently do. I also train more than 2hrs a week, so your veiled personal shots, should stop.

Now, before the thread gets any further sidetracked or locked altogether, which will be the next step, I suggest everyone return to the original topic at hand.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Gaius,

I'm going to try this once more. This has been said by myself at least a few times, and by others as well, but maybe if I put it directly against your words you will understand what I'm saying here.

He was polite, he was just inviting those who know so much about his art to come train it. Being a Martial art and maybe even more combative than many of the half dead or reconstructed arts everyone is so concerned with being linked to here.

It has been remarked that lal communication is defined not by intention, but by the interpretation. But for the record, the aspects of FalconFlyers' comments that did not ring true as "polite" to me (although not entirely "rude" either... and, no, I'm not the one who reported the post) included comments such as "any of you internet grandmasters who have the correct letter in your names" which implies that he feels we are "keyboard warriors" (in other words, not really skilled in the arts) and the comment about the correct letters is a backhanded comment along the same ideas, the short, choppy wording ("This is a serious invitation. I'd like to meet you." etc) followed by the aggressively defensive responce to Elder's post.

As to the "half dead and reconstructed arts that everyone is so concerned with being linked to here", I really don't know what on earth you mean? We're really just trying to understand the origins of this system, as the stories we've been getting have been confusing, to say the least. If it's modern, I don't think anyone has an issue, but the links to old Japanese Samurai family traditional jujutsu (without any names) comes across as a bit suspicious.

I think half of you are just all huffy because he did the nice way of saying "Put up or shut up." So agree to dissagree or go on down and train with the man.

Again, not the issue. Nor practical or realistic for many people.

I'd be amazed if half of the posters here trained more than 2 hours a week and I'd be amazed if a quarter of them could actually fight.
There are some great martial artist and dedicated artist on this board both in od school systems and modern ones. But we have alot of Martial Nerds, folks with big heads but I bet dont have the abiltiy to fight of a Smurf. (Then again those little blue basterds can get under your center and...?)

Is this a clever way of not naming names but accusing at the same time? Nice.... not sure what you're basing it on, though, and, one more time, we are not focusing on the combat techniques/effectiveness, or anything similar, the discussion has been on the history of the system (hence the invite being rather redundant).

Yes, lineage is important for historical reasons but it's not to important to results. One of the best things about MMA, Krav Maga and CQC is it shows outside people you don't have to suck up to some Asian master for years to learn how to fight. You dont need premission from someone across the World to start a school and get on with training. The real worth is what kind of students you put out.

We are not talking about "results" as you put it. We are discussing the history and origins of the system. Okay? Not the technical side of things, the historical. Got it? Good.

Intent in training trumps old dead Samurai scrolls anyday.

Every single Koryu teacher I have ever heard of talks about the training being all about the intent/mind set of the particular ryu, rather than the techniques. I don't think you have really understood them at all, honestly, but not a lot of people do really.

And I say that as someone who did Daito Ryu Kodo Kai for 12 years and had to hear all the "Well he was not really..""He never learned from..." "This is the true..."
Hey got some great techniques, developed better sensativity and a bettr understanding of internal JJ but I never cared beyoned that.

And that's great, wonderful, happy for you, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion of the origins of Phan Ku Ryu at all. You seem to have again taken personal offence (by associating this thread with your own training and organisation, if I was to hazard a guess...) where it really has no place. Sorry.

 

[Tanaka]

I think Chris Parker is just trying to find out the lineage of the Phan Ku Ryu. So why are all these guys doing all this? There's no need for the telling him to come train or harsh defenses.
I've been reading this myself, since I was also interested in knowing Phan Ku Ryu lineage in regards to being a Japanese jujutsu system. And so far I agree with a lot of the points Chris Parker has made.

Hes not saying phan ku ryu system is a bad system.
He just wants to know how its a Japanese Jujutsu system?
Where can we go to find out the lineage of Phan Ku Ryu school?

 

[Kage-Ronin]

Again coming into this discussion late......

I have moved to another state since my last post and am attending school full time, however i do keep in loose contact with the Phan Ku organization.

And have some less than satisifying news for inquiring minds.

I'm afraid that any information concerning the P.O.W that the Colonel trained with and his family's Ryu may never come to light.

Reason being is that the Colonel himself is in a very bad way with cancer and he is in a nursing home. (I won't and can't comment on his mental state at this point, so don't ask)

Any further questions should probably be directed to the following website:

http://www.phan-ku.com/contact.html