What is Phan Ku Ryu Jujitsu?

[lklawson]

and the only acknowledged use of this common mis-spelling is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (who actually manage to get both characters wrong...).

"Jiu-Jitsu" and "Jiu-Jutsu" were THE standard romanizations of the term when it was first romanized in the late 19th Century and early 20th. Look at Barton-Wright, Lanius, Liederman, Gotch, Hackenschmit, Fox's, etc., all from the late 19th and early 20th and all use "Jui-Jitsu." IMS, even the English manuals written by Japanese practitioners (Tani, iirc) have this spelling in the originals. This is a direct result of what linguists at the time were saying and it entered common usage, there to remain for more than a Cetury and still going strong.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

If you want to lets look at the Kanji then:

実=jitsu
術=jutsu

As you can see they are different Kanji.
Jitsu means truth as Chris said.
Jutsu-means technique/art.

The thing is the way a native might say Jujutsu but say it fast so it might sounded like Jujitsu to the untrained Western ear. However Japanese would never call it Jujitsu because it 1.incorrect pronounce of the word Jujutsu and also the Kanji for Jitsu/Jutsu are different.

 

[arnisador]

If you want to lets look at the Kanji then:

実=jitsu
術=jutsu

As you can see they are different Kanji.
Jitsu means truth as Chris said.
Jutsu-means technique/art.

The thing is the way a native might say Jujutsu but say it fast so it might sounded like Jujitsu to the untrained Western ear. However Japanese would never call it Jujitsu because it 1.incorrect pronounce of the word Jujutsu and also the Kanji for Jitsu/Jutsu are different.

The word came into English when the proper way to render it was jujitsu. It became a loanword that is now a recognized English word.

I went and searched the NY Times for jujutsu and got 24 results. I searched it for jujitsu and got 1990 results. That's how the word is spelled in English: as jujitsu.

If you were transliterating it for the first time today, you'd render it as jujutsu. But, it wasn't discovered today.

JUJITSU WINS FAVOR HERE; Hobbyists Can Develop It For Defense as Well As for Exercise Speed and Finesse Weapons Ineffective

By JOHN MARKLAND
March 6, 1938, Sunday
Section: RESORTS, TRAVEL, STAMPS, HOBBIES, AUTOMOBILES, AVIATION, Page 168, 631 words
JUJITSU, the Japanese national sport, came into the headlines recently when the Japanese Ambassador to France, Yotaro Sugimura, gave a jujitsu exhibition before Parisian - diplomats, social leaders and members of royalty.

 

[arnisador]

Sorry, not quite. "Jutsu" means "practical art", "jitsu" means "truth". They are very different words, with very different kanji (written characters), and the only acknowledged use of this common mis-spelling

It's the correct English spelling.

I will admit that this is quite a pet peeve of mine, I suppose I just get concerned over anyone claiming to teach an art from a long heritage and not even know how to spell the name properly.

I understand your concern.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

The word came into English when the proper way to render it was jujitsu. It became a loanword that is now a recognized English word.

I went and searched the NY Times for jujutsu and got 24 results. I searched it for jujitsu and got 1990 results. That's how the word is spelled in English: as jujitsu.

If you were transliterating it for the first time today, you'd render it as jujutsu. But, it wasn't discovered today.

Jujitsu is not correct if you say it. If a native reads it as Jujitsu it is not correct. Here it is in Hiragana: じゅうじつ Juujitsu and Juujutsu じゅうじゅつ Notice how Jitsu and Jutsu in Hiragana. I already presented the difference in Kanji. If you want to get even more technical the Ju in Jujutsu is a long U so Juu is correct which is why if you type it in Hiragana it comes out as I presented which is correct. I really don't care how English says is correct since it is a Japanese word I will trust Japanese on how to read it,How to say it and how to write it. As I said also Jujitsu is most likely a mishearing of the word Jujutsu by Japanese saying it fast or a not clear sound which Foreigns heard as Jujitsu. But hey if you can read Kanji,Hiragana then by all means feel free to correct me.

No one is denying that early Gaijin heard and translated Jujutsu as Jujitsu Jiujitsu and every other mistranslation. But we now know thru proper studying of the Kanji and Hiragana that it was incorrect when the early Gaijin came about. To be fair Japanese when writing into English sometimes spell things out in phonics or what sounds correct to them. I have seen Doesn't spelled as Dosen't.

 

[arnisador]

I really don't care how English says is correct since it is a Japanese word

No. Jujitsu is an English word that originated in a Japanese word, much like psychology is an English word derived from words of Greek origin. To say jujitsu is wrong is like saying psychology should be spelled sychology.

No one is denying that early Gaijin heard and translated Jujutsu as Jujitsu Jiujitsu and every other mistranslation.

It wasn't wrong at the time, and that's how it came over. It wasn't a mistransliteration; it was consistent with the system then in use, and was adopted into English. Algebra is a word of Arabic origin, but we don't change it when transliteration systems change, do we? Peking to Beijing, etc., was the main exception.

 

[Chris Parker]

No, jujutsu is a Japanese word. Jujitsu is a Western mistake, which has taken prominence. Hashashin is an Arabic word, the English is assassin, this is an English adoption and adaptation of a foreign language term for it's own uses, in regard to jujutsu/jitsu, it is still in reference to Japanese martial traditions.

English, as a language, has it's roots in Latin, a few Germanic tongues, original Saxon, and Classical Greek. This is one of the reasons it makes very little sense, by the way. It just gets itself confused.

But you may notice that there is no Asian language making up the construct of English, although certain words have made their way into the popular lexicon (kung fu, karate, konichiwa, arigato, etc). This does not make them English words, any more than "weekend" is a French word, although it is in common use in France (and there, it is actually used in a very French way... and refer to it as "le weekend").

So we can either continue to repeat the now obvious mistakes of the past, or we can begin to correct them and improve our understanding of our global neighbours in all ways. The only way I can see to go is to recognize an error, correct it, and move on. Even the Catholic Church has managed that from time to time (the restoration of Mary of Magdalene to Follower of Christ, not prostitute, after literally centuries of misinformation comes to mind...).

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

No. Jujitsu is an English word that originated in a Japanese word, much like psychology is an English word derived from words of Greek origin. To say jujitsu is wrong is like saying psychology should be spelled sychology.

You know what your right I mean someone who speaks,writes,reads Japanese,Married to a native(who also says its Jujutsu) and who lived in Japan is wrong.

 

[Tez3]

fascinating.............not.

 

[arnisador]

No, jujutsu is a Japanese word. Jujitsu is a Western mistake

No, jujutsu is an English rendering of a Japanese word. Jujitsu is an English word, as easily verified by consulting English-language dictionaries.

It wasn't a mistake. It was the correct way to do it at the time.

Your position is akin to insisting that we pronounce hospital as opital because that's how the French say it, and we got it from Old French.

You know what your right I mean someone who speaks,writes,reads Japanese,Married to a native(who also says its Jujutsu) and who lived in Japan is wrong.

Yup. I think the problem is a failure to understand the distinction between a loanword like jujitsu and a transliteration as is being done for jujutsu here.

 

[Tez3]

Americans pronounce many words differently from English speaking non Americans. In the UK we pronounce words differently from each other depending on where you come from, it's an interesting subject but little to do with martial arts really.
The nub of the question to me, as always, is can you fight? Does the pronounciation stop it being an effective art?

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, I seem to have started something here...

Yes, Tez, you are absolutely correct, skill is the determining factor in the assessment of a martial art(ist), but as this thread was asking about the possible legitimacy of a particular organisation, I feel it is prudent to look to their name as one factor. And, as stated, if they are claiming descent from a "samurai" family is Japan, they should, at the very least, get the name right.

For one last time, Jutsu is correct, Jitsu is not. Check out Jadeclouds post. There it is. Plain and simple. Different. Really, check it again. Different. If your argument is that it was deemed correct in the past, well, we've learnt a fair bit over time, maybe you should take this new piece of information and absorb it for future reference.

(originally posted by Arnisador) "No, jujutsu is an English rendering of a Japanese word. Jujitsu is an English word, as easily verified by consulting English-language dictionaries.

It wasn't a mistake. It was the correct way to do it at the time.

Your position is akin to insisting that we pronounce hospital as opital because that's how the French say it, and we got it from Old French."

No, as stated, Latin (the basis for French) and French are integral parts of the mix that spawned English, so the same correlation doesn't quiet work. I would say your argument is closer to insisting that we refer to Japanese ritual suicide as "hari kari", because that is the common way it has been pronounced (and, fo rthe record, the correct term is hara kiri, although even that is considered quite impolite. The proper term is seppuku).

If you insist on claiming that jujitsu is correct because people used it (incorrectly) in the late 19th, early 20th century, we're always going to have this issue. So what do you say we let it rest now, we've both presented our sides, each indidvidual can make up their own mind now. Cool?

 

[Tez3]

Well, I seem to have started something here...

Yes, Tez, you are absolutely correct, skill is the determining factor in the assessment of a martial art(ist), but as this thread was asking about the possible legitimacy of a particular organisation, I feel it is prudent to look to their name as one factor. And, as stated, if they are claiming descent from a "samurai" family is Japan, they should, at the very least, get the name right.

For one last time, Jutsu is correct, Jitsu is not. Check out Jadeclouds post. There it is. Plain and simple. Different. Really, check it again. Different. If your argument is that it was deemed correct in the past, well, we've learnt a fair bit over time, maybe you should take this new piece of information and absorb it for future reference.

(originally posted by Arnisador) "No, jujutsu is an English rendering of a Japanese word. Jujitsu is an English word, as easily verified by consulting English-language dictionaries.

It wasn't a mistake. It was the correct way to do it at the time.

Your position is akin to insisting that we pronounce hospital as opital because that's how the French say it, and we got it from Old French."

No, as stated, Latin (the basis for French) and French are integral parts of the mix that spawned English, so the same correlation doesn't quiet work. I would say your argument is closer to insisting that we refer to Japanese ritual suicide as "hari kari", because that is the common way it has been pronounced (and, fo rthe record, the correct term is hara kiri, although even that is considered quite impolite. The proper term is seppuku).

If you insist on claiming that jujitsu is correct because people used it (incorrectly) in the late 19th, early 20th century, we're always going to have this issue. So what do you say we let it rest now, we've both presented our sides, each indidvidual can make up their own mind now. Cool?

Language is a fluid, ever changing living entity, English has many words in it derived from many languages not just French. The important thing is that we understand what is mean by a word and not nit pick. I do Brazilian Jujitsu, it is understood by most what is meant by that and that's the point of a word.
Seppuku only refers to male suicide, women have their own word Jingai as the process is different.

I find the whole thing of lineage strange and sometimes pretentious, what matters is that your instructor is a good one and teaches techniques that work. If people just judged the instructor/s by their teaching you wouldn't have this ridiculous thing where people have to advertise as being from samaurai ancestry or whatever to impress students then you wouldn't have childish arguments over spellings!
I'm sorry but looking at it from the outside it looks childish arguing over spelling when discussing martial arts, in a language argument perhaps not so much.

Btw the word is hashishin and assasin is French.
From the Concise Dictionary of English Etymology one of my favourite books, sits on my computer desk. We could argue over the spelling of favourite though.
Many English words aren't derived as such from the Greek but are deliberately made up from Greek words, psychology is one.

In consequence of the absurd mania for making use of
Graeco-Latin compounds to describe inventions, it
requires some knowledge of the ancient languages to
understand even their names. But, perhaps, the difficulty
increases in proportion to the correctness of one's
scholarship. ... The term "idrotobolic", applied to hats,
may boast of a more correct etymology, but what shall we
say of "athicktobathron" for a carriage-step and
"purdonium" for a coal-scuttle?
[Hortensius: Or, The Advocate: An Historical Essay, by
William Forsyth, 1849.



On the subject of hospital v ospital, Americans pronounce herb as erb whereas we pronounce the h.

If we are going to discuss etymology we really should have another thread.

 

[Chris Parker]

Language is a fluid, ever changing living entity, English has many words in it derived from many languages not just French...

...If we are going to discuss etymology we really should have another thread.

Absolutely agreed. As I said, I think we've all made our points about as well as we can. Oh, and on the seppuku point, yes I am aware of the female version (jingai), but as hara kiri means "belly cut", and hari kari is the common mispronunciation, I only applied the male. The female version involves using a tanto to cut your own carotid/jugular, if I recall correctly, and is therefore not quite the same.

 

[Tez3]

Absolutely agreed. As I said, I think we've all made our points about as well as we can. Oh, and on the seppuku point, yes I am aware of the female version (jingai), but as hara kiri means "belly cut", and hari kari is the common mispronunciation, I only applied the male. The female version involves using a tanto to cut your own carotid/jugular, if I recall correctly, and is therefore not quite the same.

Oh I don't know, it's all fairly terminal!

 

[arnisador]

I find the whole thing of lineage strange and sometimes pretentious, what matters is that your instructor is a good one and teaches techniques that work. If people just judged the instructor/s by their teaching you wouldn't have this ridiculous thing where people have to advertise as being from samaurai ancestry or whatever to impress students

Well...it depends on what you want from your study of the martial arts. If you want to be a great fighter via studying Karate or a top Olympic Judo player by studying Judo, I agree. But in Sumo, for example, the history is part of the allure and mystique. Why do people study Iaido? For different reasons, of course, but for some it's a cultural connection, like an Irish child deciding to study Irish clog-dancing rather than Russian ballet. In that case a verifiable connection to one's past could be of interest. In the Philippines they introduced Filipino martial arts (through Modern Arnis) into the high school curriculum as part of an effort to reconnect people with their cultural traditions. For some people just being part of a centuries-old organization has a certain draw that appeals to them and that may be a more important factor to them than than to others--especially for people training as a hobby rather than for self-defense.

So yes, lineage can matter to a person! Not everyone studies the arts for the same reasons.

 

[howard]

Bullshido...serve(s) a particular niche... Unfortunately they also seem to attract rabid individuals who think their personal purview is greater than it actually is. Many of them exhibit behavior which is generally associated with inexperienced, yet full of argumentative hubris, teenagers.

You don't say.

 

[Tez3]

Well...it depends on what you want from your study of the martial arts. If you want to be a great fighter via studying Karate or a top Olympic Judo player by studying Judo, I agree. But in Sumo, for example, the history is part of the allure and mystique. Why do people study Iaido? For different reasons, of course, but for some it's a cultural connection, like an Irish child deciding to study Irish clog-dancing rather than Russian ballet. In that case a verifiable connection to one's past could be of interest. In the Philippines they introduced Filipino martial arts (through Modern Arnis) into the high school curriculum as part of an effort to reconnect people with their cultural traditions. For some people just being part of a centuries-old organization has a certain draw that appeals to them and that may be a more important factor to them than than to others--especially for people training as a hobby rather than for self-defense.

So yes, lineage can matter to a person! Not everyone studies the arts for the same reasons.

In the UK however the word is hardly ever used and people here must train for all the different reasons they do in the States? In fact I'd never heard of anone talking about lineage before I came on to MT! we must do at least as many different cultures MAs.
I'm not sure about the allure of history as far as sumo is concerned!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/3301568/Women-storm-the-sumo-ring.html

 

[arnisador]

I know many Filipinos who train the FMAs particularly for the cultural connection and chose their art on country of origin, not effectiveness. (Mind you, I think the FMAs are effective!) Bear in mind that TKD is the most popular art there as it is here in the U.S. so this is something of a "backlash" too.

Surely there are people there doing traditional English broadsword because they're English history buffs? The people who seek out Mike Loades?

I'm not sure about the allure of history as far as sumo is concerned!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/3301568/Women-storm-the-sumo-ring.html

That was news to me!

 

[Bruno@MT]

I find the whole thing of lineage strange and sometimes pretentious, what matters is that your instructor is a good one and teaches techniques that work. If people just judged the instructor/s by their teaching you wouldn't have this ridiculous thing where people have to advertise as being from samaurai ancestry or whatever to impress students then you wouldn't have childish arguments over spellings!

Hey Tez,
This is something I posted in another thread recently, regarding the issue of lineage

As for lineage, that is a bit trickier. There are 2 aspects to this that I can think of atm.

1) Many of the traditional MA were developed in times where life or death personal combat was the way in which MA systems competed in a darwinian fashion. Styles that survived had an edge over those that didn't. The ryuha that make up Genbukan ninpo survived for hundreds of years. So that fact alone is a good indicator that there is inherent value in them. If the lineage has remained unbroken all these years, then hundreds of years of experience and battle tested techniques have been passed down so that you can learn them.
Otoh, if someone throws together their own MA (like Dragonball Ninjutsu), there is no proof that it is any good, or complete, or that it is built on solid principles. Even if someone uses it to compete successfully in UFC, that only proves that that specific fighter can fight UFC fights. 1 is a statistically irrelevant sample size.

2) Looking at it the other way, if someone fakes a lineage or tries to mislead others (ninjutsu is unfortunately a popular target for con men) then that person is a liar. That fact alone would be enough for me to not want to train with them.

Lack of lineage is not a problem imo. I did modern JJ for 3,5 years, and my sensei told me up front that it was a modern art without a traditional lineage. Fine. No problem. As long as noone lies about it, it does not influence my decision.

The unarmed fighting is only 1 aspect of ninpo.
Armed fighting is another, and then there is also the aspect of rolling and brealfalls, etc. The curriculum of these ryuha have been built over time. If the lineage is valid, then I can be reasonably sure that the curriculum is complete and all round.
Whereas if I would enroll in Dragonball Ninjutsu (not going to use 'real' names here) I would learn some flashy moves, but otherwise learn a curiculum that a) has been put together without the benefit of centuries of experience and b) which was created for the purpose of LARPing.

If I would care solely about the unarmed fighting aspect, then I would agree with your point.