What is Phan Ku Ryu Jujitsu?

[Tez3]

I know many Filipinos who train the FMAs particularly for the cultural connection and chose their art on country of origin, not effectiveness. (Mind you, I think the FMAs are effective!) Bear in mind that TKD is the most popular art there as it is here in the U.S. so this is something of a "backlash" too.

Surely there are people there doing traditional English broadsword because they're English history buffs? The people who seek out Mike Loades?



That was news to me!

The Sumos cool isn't it!

I'm not saying people don't do things for cultural reasons, thats not what I mean, it's a different subject. What I'm getting at is that in martial arts here we don't talk about who our instructor trained under, or who that instructor trained under very much. That lineage isn't very impotant. if your instructor is a good one it doesn't matter who his instructor's instructor's instructor was.

 

[Chris Parker]

True, Tez, however if your teacher is marketing themselves as teaching a particular tradition, and then you learn that they have either deliberately or mistakenly mislead or lied about it, then you could have a grievance against them. The argument here boils down to whether or not someone is truly representing themselves honestly, and if you are being charged for the teachings, it is good to know if you are not being taken for a ride. And this all started when I said that not knowing how to spell your own arts name is a bit of a bad sign... Oh, well.

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh, and for the record, I was much more interested in learning more about the system and it's background from Naosuke, as that was what he said he was here for, rather than simply arguing over correct use of language for two pages. But it seems that he is not answering. Oh, well, maybe one day.

 

[Tez3]

Oh, and for the record, I was much more interested in learning more about the system and it's background from Naosuke, as that was what he said he was here for, rather than simply arguing over correct use of language for two pages. But it seems that he is not answering. Oh, well, maybe one day.

it's always pleasant to chat though!

 

[Chris Parker]

That it is, my Lady, that it is. Would that all such conversations in my experiences were engaged with such an eloquent conoiseur of language in all it's subtleties and flair. Well met, I say, well met indeed...

 

[frank raud]

Sorry, not quite. "Jutsu" means "practical art", "jitsu" means "truth". They are very different words, with very different kanji (written characters), and the only acknowledged use of this common mis-spelling is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (who actually manage to get both characters wrong...).quote]

Why is it acceptable for Brazillian jiu jitsu to use that spelling, but not for another obviously non-koryu made in America style?

 

[Carol]

Sorry, not quite. "Jutsu" means "practical art", "jitsu" means "truth". They are very different words, with very different kanji (written characters), and the only acknowledged use of this common mis-spelling is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (who actually manage to get both characters wrong...).quote]

Why is it acceptable for Brazillian jiu jitsu to use that spelling, but not for another obviously non-koryu made in America style?

The suffix -jutsu is spelled "jutsu" in romanji, and should be spelled with a U when referring to Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, etc.

If relating to the Japanese term, the preferred romanization is with an I instead of a U. Romanization is primarily for the benefit of pronunciation by non-Japanese.

The reason is because the "Ju-" is actually what the Japanese would consider to be a long "u" sound, meaning the sound is held for a beat longer than it would normally be. When the art is romanized as "Jujutsu", the first two syllables tend to be pronounced with the same U sound, which is incorrect.

With the spelling of "Jujitsu", there is a difference in the pronounciation of the syllables, to reflect the difference in how the word is pronounced in Japanese.

If you go to an academic dictionary that will accept romanji input, such as Jim Breen's WWWJDIC and type in the word "Jujutsu", you will not find a match. However, if you type in the word "jujitsu", you will find a match:

[SIZE=+1]柔術 【じゅうじゅつ】[/SIZE] (n) classical Japanese martial art, usually referring to fighting without a weapon; jujitsu

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I suppose the correct manner would be ,jūjutsu The correct Ju or Jyuu is pronounced with this Hiragana: じゅう vs this Hirgana じゅ for Ju.

柔術

This Kanji is for Jujutsu or Jyujyutsu notice how the jyu sound is different than the jeetsu sound found in jujitsu. Even when spoke by a native the sound is different but whatever if Americans want to say it jujitsu....

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

Hoped we may have gotten past this, but one last time...

The suffix -jutsu is spelled "jutsu" in romanji, and should be spelled with a U when referring to Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, etc.

This is correct. It is "jutsu" for any Japanese or Japanese-derived art, as "jitsu" is a different word entirely.

If relating to the Japanese term, the preferred romanization is with an I instead of a U. Romanization is primarily for the benefit of pronunciation by non-Japanese.

I don't quite agree here. The romanization using an "i" to make "jitsu" makes it the wrong word. If we are going to romanize for the benefit of non-Japanese in their pronunciation, maybe we should just get it right in the first place?

The reason is because the "Ju-" is actually what the Japanese would consider to be a long "u" sound, meaning the sound is held for a beat longer than it would normally be. When the art is romanized as "Jujutsu", the first two syllables tend to be pronounced with the same U sound, which is incorrect.

Well, absolutely technically, the two "u" sounds actually are different. The first is a long "uu" sound, sometimes romanized as "jyu", and the second is a short "u", making the entire word "jooo-jootsoo". But turning it into an "i" (which in Japanese is an "ee"-type sound) is again, simply the wrong word.

With the spelling of "Jujitsu", there is a difference in the pronounciation of the syllables, to reflect the difference in how the word is pronounced in Japanese.

Pen, pan, pin, pun, all very different words in English with very different meanings. But if you say them fast, to a non-English speaking listener, and you may get some confusion.

If you go to an academic dictionary that will accept romanji input, such as Jim Breen's WWWJDIC and type in the word "Jujutsu", you will not find a match. However, if you type in the word "jujitsu", you will find a match:

I may suggest it needs to be updated, then. And as for "finding the term in a dictionary, so it must be correct", you find plenty of "words" that are simply incorrect even in English. For example, current dictionaries are being created with "text-speak" included, such as lol, rofl etc. These are not words, are not accepted as words, but are there.

[SIZE=+1]柔術 【じゅうじゅつ】[/SIZE] (n) classical Japanese martial art, usually referring to fighting without a weapon; jujitsu

Here, I refer you to Jadeclouds earlier post, as well as his most recent. The kanji shown here is not "jitsu". It has never been "jitsu". It is, and has always been, "jutsu". Just because someone else got it wrong, there is no reason for everyone to blindly follow. Mistakes are to be learned from, not repeated if better knowledge is there for you.

Okay, rant over. Back to your regular thread. And please let this be the end of this?

 

[Chris Parker]

Sorry, not quite. "Jutsu" means "practical art", "jitsu" means "truth". They are very different words, with very different kanji (written characters), and the only acknowledged use of this common mis-spelling is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (who actually manage to get both characters wrong...).quote]

Why is it acceptable for Brazillian jiu jitsu to use that spelling, but not for another obviously non-koryu made in America style?

Oh, and for the record, I am really not fond of BJJ mis-using the language, but as they use almost no other Japanese terms (aside from kimono, and I'm not getting into the fact that a gi is really based on the under-kimono, or old-style underwear, rather than a real kimono, so that term isn't really well-chosen either...), I recognise a losing battle when I see it.

I would like to make clear that I have no issues with the technical side of things at all, that is an entirely different discussion, just with the mis-use of language.

 

[Aiki Lee]

anyway...

Has anyone found out what Phan Ku is?

 

[elder999]

<snip!>Phan Ku ?<snip!>

Gesundheit! :lol:

 

[elder999]

Has anyone found out what Phan Ku is?

Hadn't really bothered looking, but:

Of various creation stories which evolve in China, the most striking is that of P'an Ku. He is hatched from a cosmic egg. Half the shell is above him as the sky, the other half below him as the earth. He grows taller each day for 18,000 years, gradually pushing them apart until they reach their appointed places. After all this effort P'an Ku falls to pieces. His limbs become the mountains, his blood the rivers, his breath the wind and his voice the thunder. His two eyes are the sun and the moon. The parasites on his body are mankind. .........

...... In summation, the Chinese say that everything that is - is Phan Ku and everything that Phan Ku is yin-yang.

Seen here

as well as on the Phan Ku Jujitsu website, here

 

[Aiki Lee]

so then the creator of this style is mixing chinese words with mispelled japanese words (or an older correct at the time spelling of an english word describing a Japanese system).

Whether his techniques and strategies are effective or not the orgin of his system seems suspect to me.

 

[elder999]

so then the creator of this style is mixing chinese words with mispelled japanese words (or an older correct at the time spelling of an english word describing a Japanese system).

Whether his techniques and strategies are effective or not the orgin of his system seems suspect to me.

Well, the name is certainly suspect, but what is said about it's founding:

Phan-ku Ryu Jujitsu ("fawn-coo rue") is a fighting Art based on sound Jujitsu principles and sixty-five years of real life study and development by founder Lt.Col Mark A. Miles, for use on the battlefield and later adapted for civilian use.

isn't too different from a lot of other gaijin gendai ryu, good and bad, effective and not so much.... It would be helpful if he detailed his background and ranking in whatever styles he studied (one assumes Kodokan judo, but who knows?) but there it is.

 

[frank raud]

Sorry, not quite. "Jutsu" means "practical art", "jitsu" means "truth". They are very different words, with very different kanji (written characters), and the only acknowledged use of this common mis-spelling is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (who actually manage to get both characters wrong...).

Examples of this common "mispelling" would include Wally Jay's Small Circle ju jitsu, Can ryu jiu jitsu, at least half the sites for Danzan ryu, the jitsu foundation, jiu jitsu international(Richard Morris organization) World jiu jitsu federation, and many more. It would seem to be the common spelling in the English world. As there are many words that are spelled differently in American and English dictionaries(honour, honor, colour, color,grey,gray), yet have the exact same meaning, again I ask why is it acceptable for Brazilian jiu jitsu to be referred to as such, yet it is incorrect for other obviously non-koryu styles?

 

[Aiki Lee]

But then what if they wanted to spell out the japanese word for truth, i.e. "jitsu"?

I recognize the points on both sides, but I have to agree with JCA and Chris. It should be spelled "jutsu" because it should be pronounced "jutsu" Any time someone uses a foriegn word they should try to say it as close to the native way as possible. Or else it is the same as spelling "karate" as "kahroddy" or saying "case-a-dilla" is a reasonable substitute for quesadilla.

 

[arnisador]

Or saying Japan when you mean Nippon.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, we're getting a little technical again here. "Japan" is the English name for the country, "Nippon" is the Japanese name (in their native tongue). This is similar to England being called "Angleterre" in French. We are then talking about different languages, which we are not in the earlier case.

Himura, if they were meaning the word "Jitsu", meaning "truth", then they are obviously able to use the correct word. But that would also mean using the correct kanji, which universally is not the case. The kanji and translation used is always the one for "Jutsu". But please, anyone who has encountered a school using the "jitsu" kanji and translation, please let me (and us) know!

Frank Raud, the reason BJJ seems to be allowed the use of the incorrect spelling is that they have broken almost completely away from their Japanese roots, and use almost no Japanese terminology. I still don't like it, but there it is. As for the other organisations you mention, they each trace themselves back to Japan, and claim their knowledge from Japan in the first place, however, they each have adopted a mistaken use of the language due to a lack of understanding fo the language in the first place. I stand by my comment that maybe it is time they updated their knowledge.

I find this type of mistake similar to a foreign group of people saying they are going to MacDonalds to get some hambuggers... just one letter different, but the meaning changes quite a bit. And then the same group of people continuing to use the term "hambugger" even when the mistake is pointed out. A little on the funny side, but the same idea, really.

To take an example from one of my other favourite areas of interest, paleontology, there have been many mistakes in the past which have been corrected even against common knowledge, and some of these people here may find they are incorrect on as well. Probably the best is the case of the Brontosaurus. The original fossil which was classified as a "Brontosaurus" was not complete when found (which is really pretty common), and was missing possibly the most important part of the skelleton, the skull. But another skull was found nearby, and was assumed to be the one from the "new" creature.

Unfortunately, this was the wrong skull (it in fact belonged to a creature known as a Cammarosaurus), and when the real skull was found later, it was found that the supposed "new" creature had already been described, and was called "Apatosaurus". So Brontosaurus, although one of the best known, and best-loved of the early-described dinosaurs, was not a creature at all. And the entire scientific community has accepted this, and moved on. We are probably the equivalent within our community, so if we can't get it right, who will?

And finally, the differing spelling of words such as "honour/honor" etc. reflect differing expressions of differing areas, not differing languages, nor indeed differing words, as is the case with "jutsu/jitsu".

Now, really, this was just one aspect of the original post that I picked up on. Can we see if we can get more of an idea of what the system itself is like now? The suspect history and name aside, can we see if we can get some answers?

 

[Bruno@MT]

You might as well try to convince people that 'keeping out the cold' is a wrong concept and that they're really keeping in the heat.

For better or worse, people having been using jiu-jitsu and ju-jitsu for a long time now as a name for their system and no amount of nitpicking will change this.
I understand all the arguments as to the name being wrong. But once something is used as a name, it tends to stick.

I had a teacher in college who was on a crusade to make everyone say PC (programmable controller) instead of PLC (Progammable Logic Controller).
His argument was that these things had gone way beyond their original functionality in the course of time, and he found the reference to 'logic' wrong for several reasons.

And technically he was right. But that doesn't change the fact that his efforts are futile, or that noone will ever change the use of the term 'PLC'.
Once something becomes a name instead of a meaningful description, discussion becomes moot.