What is Phan Ku Ryu Jujitsu?

[arnisador]

Well, we're getting a little technical again here. "Japan" is the English name for the country, "Nippon" is the Japanese name (in their native tongue). This is similar to England being called "Angleterre" in French. We are then talking about different languages, which we are not in the earlier case.

You're now arguing my side of the matter. Jujitsu, like Japan, is an English word found in English dictionaries. Try looking up jujitsu and jujutsu in an English dictionary and see for yourself. Nippon and jujutsu are Japanese words for which we have English equivalents that are not necessarily the most accurate in retrospect. But, I suppose if the Hellenes have gotten used to being called Greeks, the jujutsu-ka can learn to live with being called jujitsu practitioners.

the original post that I picked up on

Yeah, that was not very welcoming for someone's first two posts here.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

The word "Japan" is not an origin word from Japan. The Japanese use the word Nippon or Nihon which if we read the Kanji it means Sun origin or Sun core. Hence the land of the rising sun or the land of bright hope.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/japan

The interesting part is Rìběnguó. Rì běn 日本 If you read this Kanji in Japanese it says Nihon. Also looking that the Sun rises in the East which is what Japan is to China we can see how land of the rising sun comes from similar to the West how China is land of the sun setting. I forget the old words for China in Japanese. But interesting read.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi, Arnisador,

I'm going to try to do this with as much tact and gentleness as I can at this point, and with as much respect as I can. To begin with, I might state that from your many other posts, and the way you conduct yourself on this forum, I have developed quite a bit of respect for you, however I cannot quite let this go just yet.

You're now arguing my side of the matter. Jujitsu, like Japan, is an English word found in English dictionaries. Try looking up jujitsu and jujutsu in an English dictionary and see for yourself. Nippon and jujutsu are Japanese words for which we have English equivalents that are not necessarily the most accurate in retrospect. But, I suppose if the Hellenes have gotten used to being called Greeks, the jujutsu-ka can learn to live with being called jujitsu practitioners.

"Jujitsu" is not an English word. Just plain and simple, it is not. It is a bastardisation of a Japanese term, mispronounced, misspelled, sent out to the world. "Jujutsu", however, is a Japanese word. And it is the correct one.

Just because a word appears in an English common dictionary, that does not necessarily mean it is an "English" word. It simply means that it is a term which has entered the popular lexicon, such as (in recent editions of various dictionaries) text-speak; lol, rofl etc. These are not words, they are barely communication, but they still make it in.

As I stated in the the passage you quoted, we are dealing with different languages, not the same, so I am really not aarguing your side, you are actually mis-representing mine. Sorry.

And, as for "not very welcoming...", you do appear to have again misinterpretted what you have quoted. The line is "picked up on", not "picked on". And Naosuke did say that he was here to clear up about the school, so I feel asking questions is within the realms of acceptable behaviour, yes?

To sum up, though. While I respect you and your position, you are not a linguist, nor are you an expert on Japanese language, tradition, culture, or martial arts (Filipino and JKD are your areas, I believe). Jadecloud is an expert on the language, and has lived in Japan, and I personally specialise in the Japanese arts (in my research). My argument here is that we are supposed to know better, so maybe you could take this opportunity to improve your own knowledge on this subject? After all, isn't that the main point of these forums?

 

[elder999]

"Jujitsu" is not an English word. Just plain and simple, it is not. It is a bastardisation of a Japanese term, mispronounced, misspelled, sent out to the world. "Jujutsu", however, is a Japanese word. And it is the correct one.

Just because a word appears in an English common dictionary, that does not necessarily mean it is an "English" word. It simply means that it is a term which has entered the popular lexicon, such as (in recent editions of various dictionaries) text-speak; lol, rofl etc. These are not words, they are barely communication, but they still make it in.
.

At this point, I have to politely ask that you drop it-we're not going to agree, and, while your point has merit, it is basically invalid, in that it is chiefly supported by a subjective judgement on your part-"what makes a word a word?"

From the very excellent Merriam Webster's English Language Technical Manual (that's engineerspeak for "dictionary.....as an aside, is "engineerspeak" a "word?" :lol:

Main Entry: 1word Pronunciation: \&#712;w&#601;rd\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German wort word, Latin verbum, Greek eirein to say, speak, Hittite weriya- to call, name Date: before 12th century 1 a: something that is said bplural (1): talk , discourse <putting one's feelings into words> (2): the text of a vocal musical composition c: a brief remark or conversation <would like to have a word with you>2 a (1): a speech sound or series of speech sounds that symbolizes and communicates a meaning usually without being divisible into smaller units capable of independent use (2): the entire set of linguistic forms produced by combining a single base with various inflectional elements without change in the part of speech elements b (1): a written or printed character or combination of characters representing a spoken word <the number of words to a line> &#8212;sometimes used with the first letter of a real or pretended taboo word prefixed as an often humorous euphemism <the first man to utter the f word on British TV &#8212; Time><we were not afraid to use the d word and talk about death &#8212; Erma Bombeck> (2): any segment of written or printed discourse ordinarily appearing between spaces or between a space and a punctuation mark c: a number of bytes processed as a unit and conveying a quantum of information in communication and computer

"Jujutsu," "jiu-jitsu," and "jujitsu" all qualify as words under the definition above. (As do "rofl" and a variety of other acronyms-an "acronym" is a "word" composed of the first letters of a string of "words," like "radar." Of course, a word needn't be pronouncable to qualify as "perfectly cromulent" under the above definition. :lfao: )

Additionally:

Main Entry: ju·jit·su Variant(s): also ju·jut·su or jiu·jit·su \jü-&#712;jit-(&#716sü\ Function: noun Etymology: Japanese j&#363;jutsu, from j&#363; weakness, gentleness + jutsu art, skill Date: 1875 : an art of weaponless fighting employing holds, throws, and paralyzing blows to subdue or disable an opponent

Please note that the dictionary, as is its function, has notated the etymology of the word correctly, as well as all its English spelling variants. Additionally, you will note that it has an estimation of the time it came into common usage. Please also note that the definition itself is somewhat incomplete.....

The argument about which way to spell it in English is stylistic, not linguistic in nature, and while it might say something about the person using the word (for the record, I personally prefer jujutsu) to argue about which is correct "English spelling" is essentially pretty silly. "English pronunciation" might be another matter, and you might even be correct in categorizing those other spellings as "bastardizations," but that doesn't make them any less valid as English word: how much of the lexicon are simply "bastardizations" of German, or Latin, or Greek, or French, or Danish, or Old English?

Or even Yiddish? :lol: English is not a pure language-it's a bastardization itself, with its origins in the marriage of Germanic and Scandinavian dialects with Norman French, and a smattering of Latin thrown in, and it's constantly evolving-from Old English to Middle English to our English, which is the same as Shakespeare's, though separated by hundreds of years, and not quite the same in the U.S., Canada, England or Australia.

Lastly, of course, in addition to being almost completely pointless and unresolvable (spell it the way you want to, and be satisfied that you're "right" :lol: Is it just me, or does Mr. Parker remind anyone else of Tony Kehoe? :lfao: ) it distracts from the real issue at hand: what is the background of the creator of phan ku ryu, which is, after all, not Japanese in origin?

 

[TimoS]

What I'm getting at is that in martial arts here we don't talk about who our instructor trained under, or who that instructor trained under very much. That lineage isn't very impotant

I must say that I disagree with you here. From what I've seen, and I'll admit that it's not that much, as I am in Finland, but I do see people from UK, especially Shotokan practitioners (although that could be mainly because Shotokan is so popular) talk quite a lot about who they or their instructors trained under. Did they train under Kase, Enoeda, Shirai or Nakayama (just to name some famous Shotokan instructors)

 

[Aiki Lee]

So let's see if I can see both sides.
Parker and JCA say Jujutsu is a japanese word translated into english, and therefore "Jujitsu" and "jui-jitsu" are improper spellings because they do not accurately portray the proper way to say the word, am I understanding this right?

Arisador and others say that Jujutsu is a japanese word translated into english, but "jujitsu" and "jui-jitsu" are english words created to desribe a martial art that stems from a japanese "jujutsu" system? So while "jujutsu" is a japanese word written in english, "jujitsu" is an english word created to describe a western approach to this particular sytle of MA?

Am I following both sides, or am I missing something?

 

[Chris Parker]

A few last comments...

At this point, I have to politely ask that you drop it-we're not going to agree, and, while your point has merit, it is basically invalid, in that it is chiefly supported by a subjective judgement on your part-"what makes a word a word?"

I have actually asked for us to move past this on at least three separate occasions already, so, yes, I will drop it after this. But I have to make this clear, as I apparently haven't already. My point is not that "jujitsu" is not a word, but that it is not an English word. That is supported by the definition you supply, by the way, in which it is stated that "jujutsu" is a Japanese word, from both "ju" and "jutsu" (both translated correctly).

From the very excellent Merriam Webster's English Language Technical Manual (that's engineerspeak for "dictionary.....as an aside, is "engineerspeak" a "word?" :lol:

"Engineerspeak"? Yeah, but I would probably hyphenate it...

Lastly, of course... it distracts from the real issue at hand: what is the background of the creator of phan ku ryu, which is, after all, not Japanese in origin?

Maybe not, but when the origin claim is that the founder was taught "by a samurai family when he lived in Japan", and the very name of the art is incorrectly spelt, that sends up warning signs. And that was the original point of my first mentioning it. But that was only one of the points I wished to be addressed, and I would very much like to get back to the other (more relevant) questions I earlier posted.

If you read back through this thread, you may find that I have only kept this going to address questions and posts from other members. If anyone feels that I have kept this going unnecessarily, I apologise, but I sincerely wished to simply address any mis-interpretation thta may have occured.

 

[elder999]

A few last comments...

Actually, the dictionary points out the etymology as being Japanese-it is, in fact, an English word, just as the word "word" is-not High German wort, not Latin verbum, nor Hittite(?!!) weriya.

More importantly, phan ku ryu is said to be Lt.Col Mark A. Miles's creation, based upon whatever it was that he studied. The "mispelling" is, as I pointed out, stylistic rather than linguistic-or even phonetic, though it may be this last.

 

[Chris Parker]

And here was I thinking we were moving past this...

If I stop now, will everyone else? I'm a little tired of repeating myself here, and I'm sure everyone else is getting a little tired of reading the same arguments over and over, right?

Let's take this back to the art itself. The name was a way to examine the verasity of it's origins, which it didn't give a lot of credence. That was all. Now that we've settled that we can argue about one of the most minor points we had for 3 pages, can we get back to the real ones? What is the system really like? Which arts is it (supposedly) really based on? Is it judo and military-style jujutsu, and exactly which samurai family taught the founder? What are the main principles? And many other questions which are still awaiting answers I believe we will never see...

 

[elder999]

Let's take this back to the art itself. The name was a way to examine the verasity of it's origins, which it didn't give a lot of credence. That was all. Now that we've settled that we can argue about one of the most minor points we had for 3 pages, can we get back to the real ones? What is the system really like? Which arts is it (supposedly) really based on? Is it judo and military-style jujutsu, and exactly which samurai family taught the founder? What are the main principles? And many other questions which are still awaiting answers I believe we will never see...

Not to defend one way or the other, but there's not much information forthcoming on the webpage, and I ahve to wonder where you're getting the "samurai family" information-maybe I missed it?

 

[TimoS]

Not to defend one way or the other, but there's not much information forthcoming on the webpage, and I ahve to wonder where you're getting the "samurai family" information-maybe I missed it?

Right here

Col. Miles developed his own "style" when fighting in WWII (i believe), but was originally taught by a "samurai" family (as close as u can get these days) while living in Japan

 

[Chris Parker]

See above (beat me to it...)

 

[elder999]

Right here

That's hearsay, though-don't know who he is, or where he heard it, or if, in fact, he did-and we';ve gotta wonder what "as close as you can get..." actually means.

All we can really go on is what the webpage has to say about how the style is represented, if we're going to do so fairly, anyway.

 

[arnisador]

"Jujitsu" is not an English word. Just plain and simple, it is not. [...]
Just because a word appears in an English common dictionary, that does not necessarily mean it is an "English" word.

Just to be clear...you're staking out the position that the main entries in an English dictionary are something other than English language words? From the dictionary entry for "dictionary":

a book containing a selection of the words of a language, usually arranged alphabetically, giving information about their meanings, pronunciations, etymologies, inflected forms, etc., expressed in either the same or another language; lexicon; glossary: a dictionary of English

I really think that your view is untenable.

In addition to the dictionaries, I've pointed out the large difference in occurrences of jujitsu and jujutsu in the NY Times. I think their style editors are pretty familiar with linguistic matters. In other major papers that I tried (like the Chicago Tribnune and the Wall Street Journal) I got a few hits for jujitsu and zero for jujutsu. The online Encyclopedia Britannica has an entry for jujitsu but not for jujutsu (though jujutsu is given as an alternate spelling)..

Are you really so sure that all of the English-speaking world's lexicographers, newpaper editors, and encyclopedists are wrong, but you're right? Could it be that while your reasoning seems very sound to you, the experts in the English language have a different opinion?

You've frequently asserted the correctness of your position, but I and others have repeatedly cited published and verifiable expert evidence to support the contrary. Where is your expert on the matter, apart from a friend's wife who speaks Japanese?

 

[Chris Parker]

Really? You're really keeping this going? Okay, one more time, but let this be it, okay?

Just for fun, I went to Websters English Dictionary, and input a few other language words which are common enough in English, including "au revoir", "bonjour", and a few others... and what do you know, these purely French words turned up in an English dictionary! They must be English too! Unless...

Oh, and your definition of a "dictionary" includes (current) lexicon, and use of the same or different language. So my claim seems to stand, I feel.

As for the large number of occurances in popular press, I'm not disputing that. When terms are first used in popular media, such as newspapers, a precedent is set which is used as the boilerplate for future use, so yes, if jujitsu was used first, it will be used in subsequent occassions. That doesn't mean it was right in the first place.

Experts in the English language are not really relevant here, as we are not (I repeat here for emphasis) NOT talking about an English word. We are talking about a martial system which is supposed to be based on teachings gained in Japan, from a Japanese teacher, which is not spelled correctly, giving rise to slight suspect feelings about the origin of the art. So they may well be experts on English, but we are talking about Japanese. Seriously, how many times have I said that jujutsu/jujitsu is simply not an English word? I thought I was pretty clear about that...

Your evidence are simply common usage issues, which go back to the original mistake, and are therefore not really convincing to me. Sorry about that. Citing popular media is not the same as citing usage from Japanese martial traditions where the term "jitsu" is used. i don't really mind if the common masses don't get it right, it would be the same as me expecting average person on the street to be able to discuss Ed Whitten's work developing M-Theory, and being disappointed if they don't get it.

As with many other things, the martial arts are specialist area of knowledge. Within that specialist area, there are further specialisations, which we all have our own areas in. For me, that is the Japanese martial traditions. So my sources include the aforementioned Tanemura Sensei video, every single Japanese dictionary I have ever seen, each and every serious and researched Japanese martial art book I have come across, and more. As stated, Arnisador, I don't think you have a background in Japanese arts or language, so I would ask why this is such a major sticking point for you? I would think that it wouldn't worry you so much.

Oh, and finally, when it comes to Japanese terms, I will take a native-Japanese speaker over a Western newspaper any day, no matter how well-respected the publication may be.

Okay, that's over. Back on topic.

One more thing: Elder999. If we are not to take Naosuke as a reliable source (apparently being a student of the school, and the teacher in question himself), because he hasn't established himself here, and instead dismiss his comments as "hearsay", how do you propose we actually get some answers? I don't think Naosuke is going to return, but there is no reason to doubt his accuracy yet that I have seen. Oh, and I asked the same regarding the cryptic comment about "as close..." as well. Maybe one day we'll get an answer. Maybe.

 

[arnisador]

including "au revoir", "bonjour", and a few others... and what do you know, these purely French words turned up in an English dictionary! They must be English too!

Not necessarily. You just need a refresher course on using a dictionary. Let's take a look:
au revoir:
au re&#8901;voir&#8194; &#8194;[oh ruh-vwar; Eng. oh ruh-vwahr] Show IPA
–interjection French.
until we see each other again; good-bye for the present.

goodbye:
–interjection
1. farewell (a conventional expression used at parting).

The word "French" in the description of au revoir indicates that the word is a French word commonly used in colloquial English. Now let's try jujitsu:
jujitsu:
–noun
a method developed in Japan of defending oneself without the use of weapons by using the strength and weight of an adversary to disable him.

Note that it doesn't say "Japanese" where au revoir had "French". It goes on to say the origin of the word is Japanese. There's a difference between a word having a foreign origin and being a foreign word. 'Japan' itself is a word of foreign origin, but it's (also) an English language word.

so yes, if jujitsu was used first, it will be used in subsequent occassions. That doesn't mean it was right in the first place.

Following your logic, why is Japan still referred to as such when we now know better? Greece? Finland (Suomi)? And if those terms established by usage are still correct...why isn't jujitsu?

Experts in the English language are not really relevant here[...] they may well be experts on English, but we are talking about Japanese.

No, we aren't. There isn't any dispute about how to write it in kanji. We're talking about the difference between a foreign word becoming a loanword ("a word in one language that has been borrowed from another language and usually naturalized, as wine, taken into Old English from Latin vinum, or macho, taken into Modern English from Spanish") and a new Romanization of a foreign word. Jujutsu has been loaned and naturalized as jujitsu. It's happened. It's over. Your position is akin to pedantically referring to Denmark as Danmark on each reference because that's how the name is spelled there.

Seriously, how many times have I said that jujutsu/jujitsu is simply not an English word?

Not often enough to make it true.

As stated, Arnisador, I don't think you have a background in Japanese arts or language, so I would ask why this is such a major sticking point for you? I would think that it wouldn't worry you so much.

Thanks for your concern.

 

[Aiki Lee]

This arguement has gone from being interesting to futile, to irritating. I guess we'll never find out about Phan Ku Ryu Jujitsu, but then again I never cared that much to begin with.

 

[elder999]

Okay, that's over. Back on topic.

One more thing: Elder999. If we are not to take Naosuke as a reliable source (apparently being a student of the school, and the teacher in question himself), because he hasn't established himself here, and instead dismiss his comments as "hearsay", how do you propose we actually get some answers? I don't think Naosuke is going to return, but there is no reason to doubt his accuracy yet that I have seen. Oh, and I asked the same regarding the cryptic comment about "as close..." as well. Maybe one day we'll get an answer. Maybe.

Well, the Bullshido post he mentioned links the founding to Masato Naruse of Kosen Judo, which is intersting, but not necessarily a fact. If it were, it might be a qualified "as close as," though I honestly don't know.

In any case, the way to get the answers is to go to the source......

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I was looking back at Elder's post on Phan ku.

If we take Phan Ku-Change it to Pan gu(ku) we get this Kanji/Hanzi : &#30424;&#21476;
If this is read in Japanese it should read as Ban Ko. Japanese usually read the Chinese Kanji in a Japanese type twist or a phonetic type pronounce. Which brings up a more interesting question is there a deity in Japan who still kept his original Chinese name? If you find it let me know.

 

[Chris Parker]

This arguement has gone from being interesting to futile, to irritating. I guess we'll never find out about Phan Ku Ryu Jujitsu, but then again I never cared that much to begin with.

Agreed. Arnis, you are never going to convince me, obviously I am never going to convince you, let's leave this, shall we? All I will say is your final arguments still have a fair few flaws from my perspective (I used the Mirriam-Websters Dictionary, which listed both jujitsu/jujutsu and au revoir as nouns in English, so that follows that either au revoir is English, or that the distinction isn't made that way in all sources; a loanword is a word taken from another language and used in common vernacular, not a new word for the recieving language [English in this case]; the proper names of the various countries you mention are the English names, suitable for use in English, the alternatives you list are suitable for each countries native tongues, and are therefore not a suitable example for anargument as to how we should pronounce/spell a foreign term etc.)

My argument is simple. In Japanese, it is always jutsu, never jitsu. If learned in Japan, the correct term should be used. The original question was how legit the system sounded, this was one warning sign I mentioned. You have honestly taken this far beyond it needed to go. Again, I am more than happy to leave it at this, and let each reader decide for themselves who's judgement they wish to follow. Okay?