What if Wing Chun remained a concept...

[Juany118]

It is incidental. I am punching, my intent is to punch but my opponent is punching to. Because of the range I am usually at while punching, if those strikes collide my arm is simply very often naturally in a Tan position, with the exception of the shape of the hand obviously. I didn't want to Tan, it simply happened. Does that make more sense? By Tan meaning the angle of the elbow etc. My Sifu really doesn't say "Tans are used to block this kind of strike" he simply says "this is the shape of your arm when you Tan."

As for rolling what became a Tan into a Bong, I have experienced when stuff like that happened that your opponent, if untrained will sometimes just try to push through you. Spiraling into a Bong keeps that energy moving away while you use any other attacks.

Now this is only what I use against bigger heavier opponents because I am a light weight and regardless of structure there are limits to how easily I can crash through unless I continue to redirect the force. When I play through incidents like this in my head I always play that worse case scenario in my brain.

Geezer


Late edit...I have also successfully crashed through as you stated, I just wanted to clarify that what I am speaking of is that bigger stronger opponent that tries to "bully" their way forward. I don't "plan" defenses. I know some people who say, "Pak this kinda of strike, Tan that one, Bong this other one" etc but that is not me. Its hard to explain but the short form is that the synergy of my body's current position and the actions of the opponent dictate what I do and then that action cascades into our new body position dictating what attack I do, whether it is continuing to press forward with WC attacks or use other techniques to disengage to get to a tool. This later is often where I sometimes run into confusion speaking with other people who study WC. I do practice it as an art unto itself BUT I also practice it to simply be a bridge of sorts as follows...

Encounter suspect> suspect attacks> no time for me to get to tools and still defend myself so WC> have opportunity via WC to generate distance> access tool> game is changed.

Now when the game is changed the guy may be getting tased (I don't use pepper spray against active aggression as you can fight through it) or I have my baton out and now I switch to Inosanto Kali mode. Hopefully the situation doesn't justify my gun.

 

[geezer]

I'm having a really hard time believing that if he couldn't get his original bong-sau to work on skilled students, somehow what is shown by Emin above would work on skilled students...

A skilled student should be able to shut that down pretty instinctively, what with all the space afforded to them without affecting their structure, balance, or facing in any way. Simple LSJC.

First, a disclaimer: I am not an EBMAS student and don't do things exactly as Emin does. I don't have my own videos and so use his videos because they are among the closest I can find on Youtube.

That said, if you look again at the gif you so kindly provided, you will notice that Emin's bong is totally disrupting his opponent's structure, balance, and facing (to use your own words) ...watch how he staggers to the side. Because of the forward pressure of Emin's bong and the barrage of punches that immediately follow, his opponent cannot recover and face Emin's center.

On the other hand, I find the following comment regarding the cross-body punch more on the mark:

...This causes his punch to be going sideways across his torso, with his elbow raised to shoulder height. Not only is there no hip/elbow connection, none of his body mass is behind the punch as he's rotating and stepping around the side while his punch is coming from where his body used to be. Rotating left and punching right. As a result it has no support of any kind and will lack power, especially for a weaker individual.

I would agree with you that turning one way and punching the other way across your body significantly reduces your range and power, which is especially problematic for a person like myself who does not have Emin's size and power. This appears to be pretty obvious, so the assumption is that either Emin is pretty stupid for teaching this, or his students, many of whom have studied a lot of other fighting arts, are pretty stupid for swallowing this.

News Flash: Contrary to what some may believe, Emin is a very intelligent dude.

....So, giving him the benefit of the doubt, I have worked with this cross-body punch and found that if you really understand what is going on, you can put your body weight into it. This is because in our lineage the torso must be flexible and "springy" just like the arms, only much stronger. If you step in with the technique and flex your waist a bit, then rebound or spring back a little, your body weight does go into your punch. It's a small movement and hard to see but easily felt ...both by you and your opponent.

In conclusion, don't jump to conclusions based on Youtube clips of posed demos. There is definitely more going on here than than meets the eye.

 

[geezer]

...So then it folds. Emin said in the first video "unless he's strong enough to suppress the forearm and bend my energy". (Probably meant suppress the energy and bend my forearm.) So it is the opponent's force dictating that your arm folds and your body rotates. That's what I'm calling passive, because you are allowing the opponent to move you.

Not exactly. Since we are communicating by the written word without actual physical demonstration, we must be especially careful with our terms. The bong does not fold, if by fold you mean "bend and collapse". Perhaps better to say it bows and flexes when receiving force. A bow flexes and then returns force. Likewise the bong returns force and controls the position of your opponent so he cannot return to face your center.

Yes your footwork does allow you to sidestep his attack (yau pin, yap ching), but you do not allow space to develop, releasing pressure. This would defy our concept of maintaining forward intent which is inherent in loi lau hoi sung lat sau jik chung.

Push means to use steady force to move something away. Bong is a sharp paak energy. It moves forward and the rotation of the elbow causes the lateral displacement of the opponent's arm, opening the way for a direct punch. It's not moving to the side, pushing, or rotating to follow the arm. It's not about the arm. It's about taking space to punch the guy.

You are correct in equating bong with pak. Bong often functions like a pak-sau. When you meet incoming force on the palm side of your wu-sau, you pak ...with a jolt. When the same force comes across your bridge, your arm rolls and jolts forward with a bong. Same idea. In this sense bong and pak can be seen as using opposite sides of the arm to do the same thing.

On the other hand (pardon the pun) bong and tan are also opposite sides of the same technique. A tan-sau does not jolt so much as spread, compress and deflect to the same side as the arm. Similarly bong-sau bows, compresses and deflects to the opposite side. This is the energy we train in our chi-sau. Depending on the situation, both versions have their place in fighting. A jolting bong clears the path for a strike. A flexing bong can deflect a very forceful strike, and if you close in, it can control an opponent's arm and structure.

 

[LFJ]

That said, if you look again at the gif you so kindly provided, you will notice that Emin's bong is totally disrupting his opponent's structure, balance, and facing (to use your own words) ...watch how he staggers to the side. Because of the forward pressure of Emin's bong and the barrage of punches that immediately follow, his opponent cannot recover and face Emin's center.

I hate to do this to you, but that's not what's happening at all.

Here it is in slow motion. His bong-sau is actually initiated before contact, and in fact barely even makes contact.

What causes the attacker to stumble a bit is a little laap he sneaks in there with his left hand. The bong-sau was entirely useless.

Here is a slow motion capture of the second time he showed it. Again, we see clearly that he initiates the bong-sau before contact is made and the bong-sau has 0 effect on the attacker.

Again, we also see a little laap snuck in there, but in this case it barely does anything either. The attacker maintains balance, structure, and facing (only turns his head away in anticipation for the demo punches).

And lastly, here we look at bong-sau on the inside as shown in the first video.

Again, it has 0 effect on the attacker's balance, structure, or facing. The attacker pulls his own head away anticipating the scary demo punches.

Emin is stepping out and leaning away from his attack. That means no power and vulnerable position for him.

The attacker's punching arm is still in play. It needs only bring the elbow back and into the center (jat) which would thwart Emin's attack while a center-chasing punch from the other hand (jat-da) would take him right over, given that he's already leaning back and weighting one leg 100%, and has no rear leg to the attacker's chasing angle. A rear paak from the punching arm plus punch on the inside would immediately kill it too because his bong is already collapsed down leaving the avenue open, but the demo dummy is just posing one punch.

The attacker can keep chasing center and walk right through him, because as I said, the attacker's balance, structure, and facing has not been affected at all. This would be instinctually shut down for any decent fighter with LLHS, LSJC training.

What all this means, is that in reality there is no bong-sau bowing to incoming force or rolling around pressure. It is all of his own volition; the useless bong and his bad footwork.

In conclusion, don't jump to conclusions based on Youtube clips of posed demos. There is definitely more going on here than than meets the eye.

Like a sneaky laap that made you think the bong did anything...?

In conclusion, Emin is unable to replicate the theory he just described at speed even in a demo against a single, known punch. You can forget about it working in an actual fight.

 

[Juany118]

I hate to do this to you, but that's not what's happening at all.

Here it is in slow motion. His bong-sau is actually initiated before contact,

The only thing I will say is regarding this, not commenting on the video. While traditionally a Bong spirals out of a Tan that is not the only way to use it. You can actually use it effectively to crash into an opponent if you "have a plan." More than once I have addressed an opponent with a Bong first, as they attack from close range, because it deflects their blow and, for me at least, I end in a good position for a Lan, so I can make distance and go to tools.

Now again this is not something most people need do in self defense, they arent concerned about making distance to go for tools like I am. I am just mentioning it because to say "Hong in initiated before contact..." and other such things I disagree with. WC is, at least imo, a tool box and you use each tools as is needed in your process.

 

[LFJ]

I'm not saying bong-sau can't be initiated before contact. Mine doesn't rely on contact at all.

I'm responding to the theory that their bong is formed by the opponent's incoming force suppressing their forearm causing it to bow which in turn causes them to rotate around it.

But at speed, it doesn't actually happen. Each time he initiates before contact and steps of his own volition.

That means he can't replicate his theory at speed even in a demo.

 

[Juany118]

I'm not saying bong-sau can't be initiated before contact. Mine doesn't rely on contact at all.

I'm responding to the theory that their bong is formed by the opponent's incoming force suppressing their forearm causing it to bow which in turn causes them to rotate around it.

But at speed, it doesn't actually happen. Each time he initiates before contact and steps of his own volition.

That means he can't replicate his theory at speed even in a demo.

Okay, now I understand. Just made my statement because I have spoken to some who say bong-sau is a result of tan-sau, and other such shenanigans.

That said I actually do see one point in the first GIF. I am on my phone so not 100% certain but it does look like he starts his "spiral" to the opponent's left before contact in anticipation. However this is why I hate YouTube. In training it is VERY aboard not to anticipate. It sucks but in terms of martial arts all to often the claim isn't proved or disproved until you are either bragging at the bar after cause you won or silent at the bar because you go your *** kicked.

I will admit that after each spiral out, in slow motion, you can see he is learning back from his waist. That is begging for trouble, but again, this is a YouTube video so it's "iffy" evidence of success or failure.

 

[LFJ]

The bong does not fold, if by fold you mean "bend and collapse". Perhaps better to say it bows and flexes when receiving force. A bow flexes and then returns force. Likewise the bong returns force and controls the position of your opponent so he cannot return to face your center.

But as we've seen, at least as Emin does it at speed, his bong doesn't bow from receiving force and doesn't return force or control position. None of the above, in fact.

Yes your footwork does allow you to sidestep his attack (yau pin, yap ching), but you do not allow space to develop, releasing pressure. This would defy our concept of maintaining forward intent which is inherent in loi lau hoi sung lat sau jik chung.

Again, as we've seen when Emin does it he's not taking space from the attacker. In fact, especially clear in the inside bong gif above he's stepping out and leaning back away from the attack. In each gif the attacker has plenty of recovery space.

Emin is supposed to be one of, if not the top fighter in the LTWT lineage. If he can't replicate the theory even in a demo against a single punch he knows is coming, but you guys (you and Phobius) say it works, then you guys must be something special.

You are correct in equating bong with pak. Bong often functions like a pak-sau. When you meet incoming force on the palm side of your wu-sau, you pak ...with a jolt. When the same force comes across your bridge, your arm rolls and jolts forward with a bong. Same idea. In this sense bong and pak can be seen as using opposite sides of the arm to do the same thing.

Your paak is a jolt from wu-sau after meeting incoming force on the palm? Sounds like a shove.

To me, paak, as the name implies is a sharp slap with the palm from no pre-contact. Bong is the same sharp slapping action but with the proximal end of the forearm, again from no pre-contact.

Just depends on your position, and I wouldn't do this as a primary action against a punch where a counter punch should suffice.

Emin does bong, laap, then punch. Of course, it was done very fast, but the opponent can move fast too. So, two remedial actions as a primary response to a single punch before returning fire is not simple, direct, or efficient and takes too long, as fast as it was, because you have to consider the opponent can still move both arms just as fast. Another punch would cut right into all of that.

Better would be to recover his lost man-sau with another punch straight from wu-sau that intercepts the line. No need for all the convoluted "Wing Chun" moves.

On the other hand (pardon the pun) bong and tan are also opposite sides of the same technique. A tan-sau does not jolt so much as spread, compress and deflect to the same side as the arm. Similarly bong-sau bows, compresses and deflects to the opposite side. This is the energy we train in our chi-sau.

I mean you guys no offense, but it sounds born of chi-sau. No such contact and compression and springing back happens in a fist fight. I'm not sure how you can look at this and still believe it.

I mean, if your top guy can't even replicate it in a demo given 3 tries against a punch he knows is coming... Might it just be a neat theory you reckon you could get to work for real? If you claim it actually works for you in free fighting, again, you gotta be something special!

 

[SaulGoodman]

But as we've seen, at least as Emin does it at speed, his bong doesn't bow from receiving force and doesn't return force or control position. None of the above, in fact.



Again, as we've seen when Emin does it he's not taking space from the attacker. In fact, especially clear in the inside bong gif above he's stepping out and leaning back away from the attack. In each gif the attacker has plenty of recovery space.

Emin is supposed to be one of, if not the top fighter in the LTWT lineage. If he can't replicate the theory even in a demo against a single punch he knows is coming, but you guys (you and Phobius) say it works, then you guys must be something special.



Your paak is a jolt from wu-sau after meeting incoming force on the palm? Sounds like a shove.

To me, paak, as the name implies is a sharp slap with the palm from no pre-contact. Bong is the same sharp slapping action but with the proximal end of the forearm, again from no pre-contact.

Just depends on your position, and I wouldn't do this as a primary action against a punch where a counter punch should suffice.

Emin does bong, laap, then punch. Of course, it was done very fast, but the opponent can move fast too. So, two remedial actions as a primary response to a single punch before returning fire is not simple, direct, or efficient and takes too long, as fast as it was, because you have to consider the opponent can still move both arms just as fast. Another punch would cut right into all of that.

Better would be to recover his lost man-sau with another punch straight from wu-sau that intercepts the line. No need for all the convoluted "Wing Chun" moves.



I mean you guys no offense, but it sounds born of chi-sau. No such contact and compression and springing back happens in a fist fight. I'm not sure how you can look at this and still believe it.

I mean, if your top guy can't even replicate it in a demo given 3 tries against a punch he knows is coming... Might it just be a neat theory you reckon you could get to work for real? If you claim it actually works for you in free fighting, again, you gotta be something special!

I'm sure Emin would be quaking in his boots if he was ever in your presence ...

 

[Vajramusti]

I'm sure Emin would be quaking in his boots if he was ever in your presence ...

 

[LFJ]

"You don't have to be scared to get your a55 kicked."

But regardless, even assuming Emin is a great natural fighter, that doesn't mean the theory he expounds is realistic.

He clearly did something entirely other than what he described seconds earlier. But if he can still beat people, good for him. If people are scared of him, good for him.

Teaching unrealistic theories to ordinary folks though, bad for them.

 

[guy b.]

I'm sure Emin would be quaking in his boots if he was ever in your presence ...

This is a bit of an idiot response and does nothing to tackle the excellent and detailed criticism of his movements made by LFJ.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What if Wing Chun remained a concept...

The Bong Shou can be used in jacket wrestling nicely.

 

[Phobius]

In conclusion, Emin is unable to replicate the theory he just described at speed even in a demo against a single, known punch. You can forget about it working in an actual fight.

Just to summarize, Emin is not replicating a sense based movement against an opponent during a demonstration in a video recording staged and intended to convey a message? Problem with doing that move based on feeling alone would mean that if his student would not hit more powerful than Emin's structure can take, the outcome might as well be another movement not intended to be demonstrated.

As such a demo is not a reliable source to base judgement on if something works. Just like we do not consider demos to be worthy evidence that techniques work in fighting. Because the situation does not allow you to do certain moves and other moves can be done which would never work in real fighting context. Emin does not want to reshoot the entire video and will therefore make sure everything becomes as he wants.

Emin is a very powerful fighter. Not necessary that bong sau would be a natural movement for him in that scenario described against his colleague.

Still it does not matter. I have tried it several times, it works. I have others that have tried it as well and does not work for them. Do not know why that is or what is the difference, but I guess there are different ways to do it and some are harder to learn to become natural movement than others.

Doing things based on visual queue is not a bad thing and I actually took some time to think and test and noticed that sometimes I automatically identify that a movement is coming in a certain way and trigger a bong sau myself without feeling it. It depends on what kind of situation and how force is angled towards me.

 

[geezer]

I hate to do this to you, but that's not what's happening at all.

Here it is in slow motion. His bong-sau is actually initiated before contact, and in fact barely even makes contact.

What causes the attacker to stumble a bit is a little laap he sneaks in there with his left hand. The bong-sau was entirely useless.

You hate to do this to me? Do what? Discuss a technique? No problem! You do have a good eye to pick up the variations in that demo, especially when the video resolution is fairly poor. Anyway, IMO you make some valid points, and others that I find less valid.

First, does Emin anticipate the punch and start forming his bong of his own volition? Possibly -- it's hard to see clearly. But that can happen in a demo when you know exactly what is coming and what you are trying to show. Either way, it doesn't really reflect on the concept he's presenting.

Secondly, regarding that sneaky little laap sau you noticed. Well, I can't speak for Emin --remember I'm not an EBMAS guy --but before EBMAS, Emin and I were both LT-WT practitioners. In that system, they did not teach using bong simultaneously with that cross-body punch you find so problematic. Instead, standard WT uses that sneaky little lap. It is sneaky because it is a small, fast, transitional movement that opens the way for a solid, same-side (not cross-body) punch. In order to work, it must be a small, fast, and efficient movement. You may have a problem with that, but I don't.

Emin's personal contribution seems to be combining the function of the lap-sau with the cross-body punch making it (ideally) a single offensive movement. This has obvious merit from the point of view of efficiency, but perhaps in practice, sometimes the lap is still necessary. Emin is a pragmatist. Whatever he says about a technique, he will adjust it as needed to make it work. If that means shifting form a punch to a bit of that "sneaky lap" why not. It has to be instinctual for somebody of Emin's level. Whatever adjustments he makes, he does make his stuff work. WSL was known for that too, I believe.

Finally, regarding your comment about the lap, rather than the bong-sau making his opponent stumble ...well, yeah, that's the whole point of a flexible bong and footwork. When you apply a forceful bong against a strong and well rooted opponent, he will resist your force, driving back into you, often closing off your line of attack, and possibly taking centerline to use against you.

A flexible bong and evasive footwork will feel to your opponent like an open door. They do not elicit resistance. In fact they tend to encourage commitment to an attack which makes it easier to move in and around the incoming strike as Emin does (regardless of precisely how he does it). This is the primary methodology of the WT system. you may not like it, you may not feel that it's as effective and reliable as your method, but you would be seriously mistaken to believe that it doesn't work! I believe that's what Saul was getting at earlier (in post 209).

So LFJ, thanks again for the gifs. They made this discussion so much clearer. And, honestly I do not mean to discount your objections. I myself find a direct, jolting bong very practical and reliable. Just one thing. Don't view this discussion as a game of "Gotcha!". Different WC/VT/WT people have different perspectives. Why not accept that and focus on a cost-benefit analysis of approaches instead of trying to prove everybody else wrong. Seriously!

 

[LFJ]

Just to summarize, Emin is not replicating a sense based movement against an opponent during a demonstration in a video recording staged and intended to convey a message? Problem with doing that move based on feeling alone would mean that if his student would not hit more powerful than Emin's structure can take, the outcome might as well be another movement not intended to be demonstrated.

If it can't be demonstrated at real speed, then it can't be drilled realistically either.

That means it is a theory that you just have to hope will function in a fight.

I have tried it several times, it works. I have others that have tried it as well and does not work for them.

So it has worked for you several times but hasn't worked for others. Doesn't sound very reliable.

Most people would probably do better focusing on tactics of higher success rates. After all, when physical wellbeing is at stake, pulling off a nifty energy trick isn't going to score you more points.

Doing things based on visual queue is not a bad thing and I actually took some time to think and test and noticed that sometimes I automatically identify that a movement is coming in a certain way and trigger a bong sau myself without feeling it. It depends on what kind of situation and how force is angled towards me.

The most likely thing to happen in a violent fist fight is that you see a threat and respond or you sense that your own position or structure has been compromised and respond to recover position.

It will not have anything to do with interpreting the opponent's energy or allowing your body to rotate around it. Things happen way too fast for that.

 

[LFJ]

You hate to do this to me? Do what? Discuss a technique? No problem!

Well, that was an example of your theory in motion. (The best one you got?) But upon closer analysis we found that none of what you or he described actually happened when he went to do it at speed. I don't hope to upset anyone by pointing this out. I know some people can be sensitive and resist criticism.

First, does Emin anticipate the punch and start forming his bong of his own volition? Possibly -- it's hard to see clearly. But that can happen in a demo when you know exactly what is coming and what you are trying to show. Either way, it doesn't really reflect on the concept he's presenting.

I think if you watch his arm, you will clearly see it initiating a bong-sau prior to contact.

How does this not reflect on the concept he's presenting? It totally nullifies it since the whole idea theoretically starts with the bong-sau being formed by the opponent's pressure on the forearm.

But if that premise is not true, then the rest of the theory is not worth discussing.

Secondly, regarding that sneaky little laap sau you noticed. Well, I can't speak for Emin --remember I'm not an EBMAS guy --but before EBMAS, Emin and I were both LT-WT practitioners. In that system, they did not teach using bong simultaneously with that cross-body punch you find so problematic. Instead, standard WT uses that sneaky little lap. It is sneaky because it is a small, fast, transitional movement that opens the way for a solid, same-side (not cross-body) punch. In order to work, it must be a small, fast, and efficient movement. You may have a problem with that, but I don't.

I don't have such a problem with how the laap was done, except that it could have disrupted the attacker's balance and facing more. The problem is more combining it with a bong that actually served no purpose.

He does right bong, left laap, left punch. While faster than we could see at full speed, the opponent's hands can move just as fast and could potentially cut right into that where the right hand is out of play for an instant. They still have another free hand, you know?

If he wanted to use laap-sau, I think it would be more direct and efficient to laap while recycling the intercepted lead hand into a direct punch. This way he'd remain square on for a more powerful punch, intensified by the laap which would jerk the attacker into the punch while making them turn, not requiring him to step out and lean away from his own punches, leaving the attacker plenty of recovery space. It's also returning fire faster. Although we're talking split seconds, we have to consider the opponent can move just as fast too.

Finally, regarding your comment about the lap, rather than the bong-sau making his opponent stumble ...well, yeah, that's the whole point of a flexible bong and footwork.

Well, you said it was the forward pressure from his bong that did the trick...

When you apply a forceful bong against a strong and well rooted opponent, he will resist your force, driving back into you, often closing off your line of attack, and possibly taking centerline to use against you.

The bong as I do it only makes very instantaneous contact. There is no sticking and pressing. So, there is nothing for the opponent to resist and use muscle against, especially if they are in the middle of punching. It happens too fast.

Plus, the stronger the opponent is with it, the more his arm acts as a lever to his body. His arm will bounce away more ballistically, turning his body with it. An effect seen in this clip posted earlier. It's an instantaneous shock, not steady pressure he can resist and drive back into.

That's how a tiny man like YM could do it. It's not force against force or sticking and pressing. The elbow rotation is like a spinning top. The effect is very powerful on a lever to the opponent's body without pressing force.

A flexible bong and evasive footwork will feel to your opponent like an open door. They do not elicit resistance.

They also don't appear to affect the opponent's balance, structure, or facing. So, there is really nothing to stop them from refacing and continuing to chase center with the next hand. That's a major problem I see with it. You said it also turns the opponent like gears, but I don't see that happening.

Just one thing. Don't view this discussion as a game of "Gotcha!". Different WC/VT/WT people have different perspectives. Why not accept that and focus on a cost-benefit analysis of approaches instead of trying to prove everybody else wrong. Seriously!

I think if we are to take something positive from this, it would be to recognize that when done at full speed, what is most likely to happen is a very instantaneous contact, and that what works is control of our own positioning and striking.

That's what worked for Emin there and is what is most likely to occur in a real fight too. I don't think his positioning method was a very good one, but I'm sure what he did there would work against most bozos in a self-defense situation. It's the speed and aggression that accomplishes it. The yielding, bowing, rotating thing doesn't seem realistic or at least not reliable. But managing one's own positioning and striking will work.

 

[Phobius]

If it can't be demonstrated at real speed, then it can't be drilled realistically either.

That means it is a theory that you just have to hope will function in a fight.

This is only true if the drill you are doing must result in a bong sau, if you put such a requirement on the drill then yes it is not doable. There is no guarantee that a bong is the most natural response. Instead you train good structure and foundation until there is no other natural movement other than what you are doing.

Sparring will tell you if you did something not optimal, in that case you improve your structure and correct your flaws and retest later.

So it has worked for you several times but hasn't worked for others. Doesn't sound very reliable.

Most people would probably do better focusing on tactics of higher success rates. After all, when physical wellbeing is at stake, pulling off a nifty energy trick isn't going to score you more points.

It is not an energy trick, it is just working for me. This has not even anything to do about energy, it is about eating up force into your structure and training how to avoid building up more tension than you can handle. What do you do when someone is about to break your structure? Train how to react and that is it. It is the most logical, most self explainatory and sadly not the quickest path. Natural movement is those moves you do by instinct, sort of like how you need to train not to flinch.

I do not care what works for others or why it does not. If your friend can not punch does that mean you stop punching altogether? Or do you even think that means your punching is bad because you punch straight on the centerline and a clear majority of the world does not and cant generate power doing it like that?

The obvious answer is this, they have not trained it well enough. Nor did I say I was the only person that got it to work, just saying there are some who can not grasp it. Just like there are people that can not react on visual input there are probably those that could not sense a truck running them over.

So speaking of reliable, the only reliable thing for me to do is use what tools work for me. If I start using tools just because they work for others then I will end up using stuff not working for me as well. That is not logical nor is it very wise.

The most likely thing to happen in a violent fist fight is that you see a threat and respond or you sense that your own position or structure has been compromised and respond to recover position.

It will not have anything to do with interpreting the opponent's energy or allowing your body to rotate around it. Things happen way too fast for that.

Well what is wrong with your reasoning? You just said what sensing energy is, "you sense that your own position or structure has been compromised and respond to recover position".

You feel in your body how you structure takes the energy and when it can not handle it anymore and need to respond. How you respond is what you train. In order to train this reliably you need to learn to sense changes in movement to figure out how to best respond when structure is about to be compromised.

This is the difference between the drills and fighting. It takes a lot more, such as you say compromising structure, for someone to feel what is happening upon an instant contact. Perhaps if you are a grandmaster and has a white beard that could reach the floor then you might feel a lot more from a single contact point. I am not that good at sensing, not even close. But during drills I have to train on the change of force to make sure my natural movements become correct.

So calling it energy trick is one thing, but as I said before. I am sure even you do it without thinking.

 

[LFJ]

You just said what sensing energy is, "you sense that your own position or structure has been compromised and respond to recover position".

You feel in your body how you structure takes the energy and when it can not handle it anymore and need to respond. How you respond is what you train.

That's not at all what I mean. There is no sensing the opponent's energy and responding when your structure can't handle it anymore. Fist fights are way too fast for such things. It's not like chi-sau. Contact is instantaneous. You must move freely and strike.

Sensing changes in your own structure and positioning is nothing but bodily awareness. Lead hand loses the line. Rear hand instinctually takes over. That kind of thing. It's all too fast to attend to anything but your own position and continuing attack. No bowing and rotating this way or that around pressure like chi-sau.

We see it in Emin's videos done at speed. He had no time to establish contact and rotate this way or that based on what the opponent's energy induced. He had to move fast, get to a position, and counterattack. That's what happens in reality.

But if you insist you've done it in a fight and it works, again, you're certainly something special. Better than the top fighter in your lineage. Good for you!

 

[Phobius]

But if you insist you've done it in a fight and it works, again, you're certainly something special. Better than the top fighter in your lineage. Good for you!

You got it all wrong. You are the one insisting that a top fighter (not in my lineage) is lying or has no idea what he is doing.

I am the one saying he can do this as well but in a video demo recording he has to adjust so a bong sau happens. You say something is proof and deny the logic in not wanting to do retakes of video recording.

And once more. You expect that a scenario must be exactly this way because he did so. For someone dealing with everything being abstract you have a very one way street in terms of applications.

I for instance do not think Emin would do a natural rolling on a punch coming straight in.

Besides you would never accept anything in demo as proof. Even if he did it as you expected it could have been after retakes and timing. Nothing can be proven unless you can do it yourself.