What if Wing Chun remained a concept...

[Juany118]

Triggering force on force?



The punch itself is also designed to clear the path. Failing that is when a remedial action such as laap-sau can be used. If the opponent is very tense it just serves as a lever to move their body.



It is passive in the sense of being reactive to the opponent's force and allowing it to dictate a shift of your entire structure. That's something I would avoid, and would view as a gift if my opponent did.

The bong-sau, as I do it, must be abrupt. It is the sudden shock force that causes the break of structure and disruption of balance and facing. With that, it is difficult for the opponent to recover or counter as a punch is coming at the same moment as a unit with the bong.

Without causing a shocking disruption of their structure, balance, and facing, and immediately eating up space, they are still capable of recovering with a direct and center-chasing jat-da as soon as your bong begins to fold and you start shifting. So, from my Perspective, it is a passive and undesirable reaction.

Coming in late but I actually find this interesting. I only learn from one WC Sifu obviously, but my job kinda lets me "pick the brains" of others in the area (hey Sifu I am a Cop and am looking for a pointer on this....). Now one of them describes, it as a Tan rotates into a Bong because the opponent continues to direct their force against your Tan. In essence the opponent creates the Bong, the essence of do not meet force with force.. Another says (as he demonstrated) "it doesn't matter. Yes, you can be forced into Bong from Tan but if you want to punch me I can lift and use Bong, or I can charge into you and make a Bong. If that is the fastest way to address the attack, use it." We did it fairly high speed and both applications worked. His only qualifier was make sure you end that Bong fast as it leads your side open.

It really seems to be a matter mentality. Me I tend to think the later attitude is more practical simply because if I am force to use WC at work it is because basically all of my tools failed (or I can't get to them due to the speed of the attack). At that point I will use the techniques but in the quickest and dirtiest way possible because if someone is coming at me in that matter it means they are freaking crazy, high or legit want to kill/maim me because most people try to escape me, not beat me.

Edit: PS one of the reasons I like going to Bong straight off, and in the right circumstance of course, is that it can seriously disrupt their center. I can then do a Lan with the same arm, pushing them back which will enable me to get to a tool (taser, baton, even gun if necessary). This however is obviously not applicable to everyone.

 

[LFJ]

Not all force needs to be tense, but yes if it is tense you need to move their force. That force might be against your attempt to move it. If you resist it too hard that intent of theirs may just change to a shorter attack on same path. An elbow can sting and in such case not only have you not shifted them, instead their attack may force your bong sau arm and punch to the side instead. Force against force.

Not sure what sort of thing you're imagining. Bong either displaces the obstruction or it doesn't, but it doesn't stay there and get pushed around. It's quick and sudden paak energy then recovers to punching position.

Not being where the opponent thinks you should be is not passive. Not attacking is passive. It does not matter what you name it, it does not make it so. Have to in the deepest disagree, an assault can not be called passive because it is reactive. It is an illogical conclusion.

It's passive if you're allowing the opponent's force to dictate that your arm folds and you get turned by it. It's certainly passive relative to my approach. It's fine if you disagree.

Also a structure is not shifted because a position is changed. Structure and position are two individual things, unless you consider movement a weakness.

So you're teleporting to a new position or shifting?

I call this chasing arms, you chase his arm with your bong sau. Given that you have no contact and plan ahead to use bong sau to attack his arm in order to push him to the side. Only trigger being your visual senses. Again there might be something I am missing... or perhaps you never use bong-sau in actual punching? Such case could perhaps force me to retract this statement.

Do you use paak-sau? Is it chasing arms?

Bong-sau is only used as a remedial action when the path is obstructed from above. You can't punch directly and you can't retract the arm or you'll be hit. So, it is a direct paak-like action to clear the way for the punch. There's no chasing anything.

And you would use jat sau on a bong sau? Is that not like asking to get hit by a backfist or elbow for you guys? I mean we are talking about the opponent punching hand doing a jat sau? Doing such a move would just trigger something else. Are we talking about the same jat sau that I am thinkning about, shocking hand or whatever else one might call it?

I don't know what jat-sau is to you. If you do it wrong, maybe.

 

[geezer]

The bong-sau, as I do it, must be abrupt. It is the sudden shock force that causes the break of structure and disruption of balance and facing. With that, it is difficult for the opponent to recover or counter as a punch is coming at the same moment as a unit with the bong.

Without causing a shocking disruption of their structure, balance, and facing, and immediately eating up space, they are still capable of recovering with a direct and center-chasing jat-da as soon as your bong begins to fold and you start shifting. So, from my perspective, it is a passive and undesirable reaction.

LFJ: What you have stated above really summarizes the difference in approach between your VT and mine. IMO the abrupt, jolting bong sau can be very effective at disrupting your opponent's position and creating an opening. It is the easiest and probably most reliable method to use in a fight.

The second method which uses a springy bong to receive and redirect the incoming force also turns your opponent, as you turn with him following his center ...like two inter-meshed gears rotating each other, and it also creates an opening. This method also works. In fact I believe it works better against a more powerful opponent. It does however require more time to develop.

Incidentally, my sifu told me that he initially depended on the jolting bong-sau you described and used it with great success. It was later, during his brief period privately training with Grandmaster Yip Man that he was shown the second version. At that time GM Yip was getting older and weaker. Perhaps he was already suffering from his cancer, although as yet undiagnosed? I don't know, but regardless of the reason, GM Yip found that he could no longer make the jolting bong work reliably against strong and gifted students, so he turned to the "soft side" of VT. That is what he shared with my sifu and my sifu with me.

My sifu explained that if our system is truly based on efficiency and borrowing your opponent's force so that even a weaker person, if highly skilled may beat a stronger foe, then this must be considered the most advanced form of the craft. Any other method, by comparison is more like brawling.

Now these were my old sifu's sentiments, not necessarily my own. I know that you will disagree and I respect that. I'm just putting this out there for the record, so that other members of the forum will know where I'm coming from. And, FWIW this isn't a philosophy of VT/WC/WT just for the weak. I've witnessed large and powerful practitioners develop this skill and apply it. Emin is just one such individual.

 

[Phobius]

Not sure what sort of thing you're imagining. Bong either displaces the obstruction or it doesn't, but it doesn't stay there and get pushed around. It's quick and sudden paak energy then recovers to punching position.

Paak Sau is a punch ready to be fired. It is a punch and Paak at same time in theory.

Bong Sau as I do it is not, therefore Bong is chasing an arm and then resets unless I misunderstand your scenario. If you continue from Bong to attack with same arm then great. That is the part I might misunderstand, how you do it because you say you do not chase hands. And having a Bong going head to head with a punch is very bold if that is the case.

I am not saying you do it wrong. But if resistance is met I think it is clear we do it differently from that point. Just curious to understand your ways. It is interesting, the details in a Bong.

It's passive if you're allowing the opponent's force to dictate that your arm folds and you get turned by it. It's certainly passive relative to my approach. It's fine if you disagree.

OK, I would consider it reactive. Note that arm folds sounds like elbow collapsed, just so it is clear the angle of the arm should not change, it just rotates. The turn comes by opponent puts force into the Bong Sau which is kept at strong structure and maintained by stepping. Different approaches perhaps.

So you're teleporting to a new position or shifting?

It is a step, thought you meant break of structure. I consider it to be keeping with structure while moving to new position, of course in greater detail it is not. But movement and footwork is always and constantly ready. Standing still to me when punches come in is sort of like being a target. Fine if you are ballsy, but for me I enjoy improving my odds with every move of stay standing.

Do you use paak-sau? Is it chasing arms?

Paak sau is a punch waiting to happend. If there is no resistance then paak sau will continue forward to punch opponent. So no it does not chase hands, nor did I say you chase hands, just that not being able to continue punching with but rather to just use it to target an arm sounds like chasing arm. This is why I am asking what part I do not understand of what you do.

Bong-sau is only used as a remedial action when the path is obstructed from above. You can't punch directly and you can't retract the arm or you'll be hit. So, it is a direct paak-like action to clear the way for the punch. There's no chasing anything.

Ok, so this is maybe what I was missing. You are in contact with a person? Because you can not retract? Or simply covering your centerline? Well I can not say your way of doing it is wrong. It is working for you and I see no reason why it should not. After all we do similar thing when force is not too strong, we just do not push opponent to the side to clear path, it usually becomes a punishable move for ourselves. Have done that accidentally and gotten a few backfists sent my way.

I don't know what jat-sau is to you. If you do it wrong, maybe.

Well I was asking what jat sau is to you, because attempting to shock my arm by applying force in that direction would cause me to attack. If it is how I consider it to be. You may mean something else, I do not know which is why I asked you what it is to you since you said it.

 

[geezer]

Paak Sau is a punch ready to be fired. It is a punch and Paak at same time in theory. Bong Sau as I do it is not, therefore Bong is chasing an arm and then resets...

Bong sau, like pak-sau, can be performed as a punch that gets interrupted or interfered with. If your intent is always forward, and your arms are like springs your bong can deflect an incoming punch and snap back as a punch or fak sau.

Even faster and more efficiently, you can hit with the other hand simultaneously with your bong sau. Until I learned this I was forced to do the cumbersome two-step bong-sau lap sau sequence we have all seen or practiced. That can work but it is not optimal according to VT/WC/WT concepts. Watch Emin below, then try it and see for yourself.

Before working on this, I thought of bong sau as either an aggressive jolt (like the WSL version) or as a passive evasion (my mis-understanding of LT's version). Now I think of it as sharing something from both of the above.

Also, notice that when done as shown, there is no "Wrong Bong" either. Some schools (Gary Lam?) teach that bong sau can be correctly performed only to the outside gate, otherwise you have a "wrong bong' and can be hit. Not so. If you move continuously and aggressively as shown, it can be done to the inside or outside gate.

It is definitely not a purely defensive technique. In fact I don't think anything in my VT is!

 

[Juany118]

Bong sau, like pak-sau, can be performed as a punch that gets interrupted or interfered with. If your intent is always forward, and your arms are like springs your bong can deflect an incoming punch and snap back as a punch or fak sau.

Question do you mean the following? I have been thinking this for some time regarding Tan Sau.


I can be going in with a punch. If instead of striking my target, say the face/head, my arm incidentally intercepts the opponent's strike, my arm quite often will be in the Tan position in everyway and it functioned as such, only my hand is different, in the shape of a fist or palm strike, then I can Bong, moving the arm further off line and then either counter punch with the opposite hand or go from Bong into a strike (my preference because the opponent's other hand is coming so my opposite hand is likely already occupied addressing the new threat.)

Or are you more saying you can transition from a Bong into a strike quickly, or perhaps C. all of the above?

 

[geezer]

Question do you mean the following? I have been thinking this for some time regarding Tan Sau. I can be going in with a punch. If instead of striking my target, say the face/head, my arm incidentally intercepts the opponent's strike, my arm quite often will be in the Tan position in everyway and it functioned as such, only my hand is different, in the shape of a fist or palm strike, then I can Bong, moving the arm further off line...

Sorry, but I'm a little confused by your example. Why would you go from a punch to a tan ...and then roll over to a bong sau? That's just going from one defensive movement to another. Inefficient. ...and BTW, don't worry about hand position. Arm and elbow position, and energy, are what really matter.

Consider, if your arm moves forward to punch, but intercepts your opponent's incoming strike on the way there are several possibilities:

--One is that your punch will wedge his aside and you will continue through to land your strike.

--Another is that you will encounter his punch coming across your bridge with sufficient strength to prevent you from wedging through, so depending on the direction of the opposing force, you either roll across into bong sau or compress and deflect the force aside with tan-sau. All the time you are still pressing forward, deflecting the oncoming force, releasing your hand, and springing in with punches (lat sau jik chung).

Here's another EBMAS clip with Sifu Emin explaining his take on tan-sau:

Now, I'm not associated with Emin's EBMAS group. It's just that Emin and I come from the same lineages: LT's Wing Tsun and Rene Latosa's Escrima. Now, the fact is that I'm just a "hobbyist" and don't make videos. Emin is a pro and gifted martial artist, so I find his videos useful. Hope you do too.

 

[guy b.]

Incidentally, my sifu told me that he initially depended on the jolting bong-sau you described and used it with great success. It was later, during his brief period privately training with Grandmaster Yip Man that he was shown the second version. At that time GM Yip was getting older and weaker. Perhaps he was already suffering from his cancer, although as yet undiagnosed? I don't know, but regardless of the reason, GM Yip found that he could no longer make the jolting bong work reliably against strong and gifted students, so he turned to the "soft side" of VT. That is what he shared with my sifu and my sifu with me.

My sifu explained that if our system is truly based on efficiency and borrowing your opponent's force so that even a weaker person, if highly skilled may beat a stronger foe, then this must be considered the most advanced form of the craft. Any other method, by comparison is more like brawling.

Fair enough. It is good to identify differences so that we know where we are all coming from.

 

[LFJ]

IMO the abrupt, jolting bong sau can be very effective at disrupting your opponent's position and creating an opening. It is the easiest and probably most reliable method to use in a fight.

I like reliability when my physical wellbeing is on the line.

The second method which uses a springy bong to receive and redirect the incoming force also turns your opponent, as you turn with him following his center ...like two inter-meshed gears rotating each other, and it also creates an opening.

I don't like the idea of allowing the opponent to turn me. I'd rather control my own movements and remain facing.

This kind of bong rotating the opponent assumes they've committed their body to following their arm in a single punch. If instead they "delink" and continue chasing center while you have turned, that spells trouble for you.

Plus, this is not what Emin showed in the video you posted. The kind of bong-sau he shows does nothing to affect the opponent's structure, balance, or facing. He even said "I have not changed his direction at all".

He rotates himself around the guy who remains totally unaffected by his bong, ending up in a position perpendicular to the guy's center and instead facing the camera.

This causes his punch to be going sideways across his torso, with his elbow raised to shoulder height. Not only is there no hip/elbow connection, none of his body mass is behind the punch as he's rotating and stepping around the side while his punch is coming from where his body used to be. Rotating left and punching right. As a result it has no support of any kind and will lack power, especially for a weaker individual.

Additionally, getting to the outside and throwing chain punches leaves plenty of space for the opponent to counter, especially when you've left him unaffected and free to move.

If the attacker simply continues chasing center, he can easily cut Emin off, thwarting his whole hand thing with a refacing cover+punch, and catching him in a vulnerable position where he has no rear leg. Yes, his footwork is a big problem too.

Even at higher speed, his body is rotating and moving sideways while stepping out, and because of this his body mass is going in a different direction from his attack, he has no lower body support behind it, and his flutter punches are all arms.

Bong-sau with follow up punches as I do it is intended to destroy the opponent's structure, balance, and facing, and capture space while remaining square and attacking with full body mass forward, preventing easy recovery or counters, and packing a lot of power... But I would never needlessly do bong-sau in this kind of situation anyway.

What is shown here just has too many problems with it.

 

[LFJ]

And having a Bong going head to head with a punch is very bold if that is the case.

I am not saying you do it wrong. But if resistance is met I think it is clear we do it differently from that point.

Doesn't have to be a punch. The path is simply obstructed from above. Bong clears the way for a punch.

Note that arm folds sounds like elbow collapsed, just so it is clear the angle of the arm should not change, it just rotates.

Your arm folds into bong from an extended position as Emin demonstrates above.

You are in contact with a person? Because you can not retract? Or simply covering your centerline?

Doesn't require pre-contact. The path is simply obstructed from above. Can't retract to get over it, or you'll be hit. Can't hit directly. So, bong must clear the way for a punch. Remedial action to regain an attack line.

After all we do similar thing when force is not too strong, we just do not push opponent to the side to clear path, it usually becomes a punishable move for ourselves.

Not sure how you can expect to feel forces in a fist fight and adjust your footwork fast enough and appropriately in response. Emin obviously had his plan going into the punch because it was a demo.

No one is that fast, and reacting against forces felt on your arm that make you roll into this position or that, and step here or there with this foot or that is not realistic.

For me, it is all about positioning and reacting to changes in positioning. No being rolled around by external forces.

Also, our bong doesn't push, just like paak doesn't push.

 

[guy b.]

I like reliability when my physical wellbeing is on the line.



I don't like the idea of allowing the opponent to turn me. I'd rather control my own movements and remain facing.

This kind of bong rotating the opponent assumes they've committed their body to following their arm in a single punch. If instead they "delink" and continue chasing center while you have turned, that spells trouble for you.

Plus, this is not what Emin showed in the video you posted. The kind of bong-sau he shows does nothing to affect the opponent's structure, balance, or facing. He even said "I have not changed his direction at all".

He rotates himself around the guy who remains totally unaffected by his bong, ending up in a position perpendicular to the guy's center and instead facing the camera.

This causes his punch to be going sideways across his torso, with his elbow raised to shoulder height. Not only is there no hip/elbow connection, none of his body mass is behind the punch as he's rotating and stepping around the side while his punch is coming from where his body used to be. Rotating left and punching right. As a result it has no support of any kind and will lack power, especially for a weaker individual.

Additionally, getting to the outside and throwing chain punches leaves plenty of space for the opponent to counter, especially when you've left him unaffected and free to move.

If the attacker simply continues chasing center, he can easily cut Emin off, thwarting his whole hand thing with a refacing cover+punch, and catching him in a vulnerable position where he has no rear leg. Yes, his footwork is a big problem too.

Even at higher speed, his body is rotating and moving sideways while stepping out, and because of this his body mass is going in a different direction from his attack, he has no lower body support behind it, and his flutter punches are all arms.

Bong-sau with follow up punches as I do it is intended to destroy the opponent's structure, balance, and facing, and capture space while remaining square and attacking with full body mass forward, preventing easy recovery or counters, and packing a lot of power... But I would never needlessly do bong-sau in this kind of situation anyway.

What is shown here just has too many problems with it.

Good analysis

 

[LFJ]

GM Yip found that he could no longer make the jolting bong work reliably against strong and gifted students, so he turned to the "soft side" of VT.

I'm having a really hard time believing that if he couldn't get his original bong-sau to work on skilled students, somehow what is shown by Emin above would work on skilled students...

A skilled student should be able to shut that down pretty instinctively, what with all the space afforded to them without affecting their structure, balance, or facing in any way. Simple LSJC.

 

[guy b.]

I'm having a really hard time believing that if he couldn't get his original bong-sau to work on skilled students, somehow what is shown by Emin above would work on skilled students

Maybe you have seen footage on youtube of younger people practicing MA with revered old people whose bodies no longer work?

 

[LFJ]

Maybe you have seen footage on youtube of younger people practicing MA with revered old people whose bodies no longer work?

Force Flow!

 

[Phobius]

Doesn't have to be a punch. The path is simply obstructed from above. Bong clears the way for a punch.

Ok, nothing more to add. It was just a question and you answered it. Have no issues with how you do it in that case.

Your arm folds into bong from an extended position as Emin demonstrates above.

Picture below is what you call folding? I call that rotating, the bending/angle at the elbow is the same for the punch as the bong. Nothing changes except bong has rotated. Is this a matter of terminology only and we mean the same thing? (I mean if the arm was straight then yes it has to fold a bit to get a strong angle)

Doesn't require pre-contact. The path is simply obstructed from above. Can't retract to get over it, or you'll be hit. Can't hit directly. So, bong must clear the way for a punch. Remedial action to regain an attack line.

Ok, got you. Had to ask to make sure I understand what you meant.

Not sure how you can expect to feel forces in a fist fight and adjust your footwork fast enough and appropriately in response. Emin obviously had his plan going into the punch because it was a demo.

No one is that fast, and reacting against forces felt on your arm that make you roll into this position or that, and step here or there with this foot or that is not realistic.

Actually it is not that hard, it is similar to having nowhere else to go. If your structure is good your body will have a natural reaction. This is what can be trained by aligning yourself in good structure and strong position, if pressure is added instead of resisting you have to move yourself automatically. If the force is not enough it will not push you out of the way. Same as if someone pushes you, if not strong enough you simply absorb in your structure. If stronger than your structure can resist it will cause you to take a step backwards.

EDIT: It is not like someone is fast enough when pushed quickly to read and analyze the pressure and understand if they need to take a step backwards or not, and yet that is exactly what we do without thinking. Our brain is very quick in utilizing senses, it is when having to utilize logic that we become slower in our thought process.

For me, it is all about positioning and reacting to changes in positioning. No being rolled around by external forces.

Also, our bong doesn't push, just like paak doesn't push.

Push, not push. I was simply referring to force moving them out of the way. In my view that is called pushing as well. Am I wrong?

 

[Phobius]

Bong sau, like pak-sau, can be performed as a punch that gets interrupted or interfered with. If your intent is always forward, and your arms are like springs your bong can deflect an incoming punch and snap back as a punch or fak sau.

Even faster and more efficiently, you can hit with the other hand simultaneously with your bong sau. Until I learned this I was forced to do the cumbersome two-step bong-sau lap sau sequence we have all seen or practiced. That can work but it is not optimal according to VT/WC/WT concepts. Watch Emin below, then try it and see for yourself.

Before working on this, I thought of bong sau as either an aggressive jolt (like the WSL version) or as a passive evasion (my mis-understanding of LT's version). Now I think of it as sharing something from both of the above.

Also, notice that when done as shown, there is no "Wrong Bong" either. Some schools (Gary Lam?) teach that bong sau can be correctly performed only to the outside gate, otherwise you have a "wrong bong' and can be hit. Not so. If you move continuously and aggressively as shown, it can be done to the inside or outside gate.

It is definitely not a purely defensive technique. In fact I don't think anything in my VT is!

Actually with punch and do bong at same time I meant with same arm. That is what I was questioning. What you are talking about and videos showing seems rather similar to what I meant to say we do.

Not had time to go through videos in detail yet, will take a look more at this post and see what may be different to what I do. However it looks rather similar to what I meant.

 

[LFJ]

Picture below is what you call folding? I call that rotating, the bending/angle at the elbow is the same for the punch as the bong. Nothing changes except bong has rotated. Is this a matter of terminology only and we mean the same thing? (I mean if the arm was straight then yes it has to fold a bit to get a strong angle)

So then it folds. Emin said in the first video "unless he's strong enough to suppress the forearm and bend my energy". (Probably meant suppress the energy and bend my forearm.)

So it is the opponent's force dictating that your arm folds and your body rotates. That's what I'm calling passive, because you are allowing the opponent to move you.

Actually it is not that hard, it is similar to having nowhere else to go. If your structure is good your body will have a natural reaction. This is what can be trained by aligning yourself in good structure and strong position, if pressure is added instead of resisting you have to move yourself automatically. If the force is not enough it will not push you out of the way. Same as if someone pushes you, if not strong enough you simply absorb in your structure. If stronger than your structure can resist it will cause you to take a step backwards.

EDIT: It is not like someone is fast enough when pushed quickly to read and analyze the pressure and understand if they need to take a step backwards or not, and yet that is exactly what we do without thinking. Our brain is very quick in utilizing senses, it is when having to utilize logic that we become slower in our thought process.

Sounds like a neat theory, but not realistic. We can see even in the demo at speed that Emin voluntarily moves to the side and steps out away from the opponent. There's no force rolling him around and dictating what foot to move where.

That only happens in slow motion with prolonged contact. To think it will happen against a real attacker not just sticking one stiff punch out for you to press into and rotate around is not realistic. Do you realize how fast real punches shoot out and back?

Push, not push. I was simply referring to force moving them out of the way. In my view that is called pushing as well. Am I wrong?

Push means to use steady force to move something away. Bong is a sharp paak energy. It moves forward and the rotation of the elbow causes the lateral displacement of the opponent's arm, opening the way for a direct punch. It's not moving to the side, pushing, or rotating to follow the arm. It's not about the arm. It's about taking space to punch the guy.

 

[Phobius]

Sounds like a neat theory, but not realistic. We can see even in the demo at speed that Emin voluntarily moves to the side and steps out away from the opponent. There's no force rolling him around and dictating what foot to move where.

That only happens in slow motion with prolonged contact. To think it will happen against a real attacker not just sticking one stiff punch out for you to press into and rotate around is not realistic. Do you realize how fast real punches shoot out and back?

That is up to everyone, we train it and it works for us. Well some of us do not have it as a natural move and can not do it at all without an extended amount of contact. As for the rest of us, yes it works. Then again you won't believe me anyway so matters not. (And extended contact is not a good way to learn to do this in my view, but some people either figure it out eventually or never figures it out. I am not a sifu personality and therefore have decided that unless they ask for help I will not push my opinions onto them)

We do realize how fast real punches shoot out, that is why I do not believe it is possible to use bong sau as you do paak or as you describe against a punch to clear path because the decision would have to be made so quickly from visual feedback that you most likely already got punched in the face. Or it will be like poker, you deciding to make a bong sau before you even know exactly what it is coming at you.

It is not like someone holds an arm extended towards you and then decide to punch with it and as such using bong sau based on visual feedback on a quick punch would require a lot of practise in order to be able to react fast enough.

I guess we both have same problem with the others approach. By training to do it, it becomes possible but without training it will feel impossible.

Not sure you can agree on that, but since your way works for you I have no reason to think you would be lying. There would be no gain in lying for you except save face. Saving face on a forum to me sounds very stupid.

 

[LFJ]

When did I say I'm using a bong-sau as a primary action against a punch?

 

[Juany118]

Sorry, but I'm a little confused by your example. Why would you go from a punch to a tan ...and then roll over to a bong sau? That's just going from one defensive movement to another. Inefficient. ...and BTW, don't worry about hand position. Arm and elbow position, and energy, are what really matter.

It is incidental. I am punching, my intent is to punch but my opponent is punching to. Because of the range I am usually at while punching, if those strikes collide my arm is simply very often naturally in a Tan position, with the exception of the shape of the hand obviously. I didn't want to Tan, it simply happened. Does that make more sense? By Tan meaning the angle of the elbow etc. My Sifu really doesn't say "Tans are used to block this kind of strike" he simply says "this is the shape of your arm when you Tan."

As for rolling what became a Tan into a Bong, I have experienced when stuff like that happened that your opponent, if untrained will sometimes just try to push through you. Spiraling into a Bong keeps that energy moving away while you use any other attacks.

Now this is only what I use against bigger heavier opponents because I am a light weight and regardless of structure there are limits to how easily I can crash through unless I continue to redirect the force. When I play through incidents like this in my head I always play that worse case scenario in my brain.