What Good are Forms?

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the attention to detail is an important aspect of the forms in Taekwondo. The specifics are to reinforce the mechanics and concepts taught by the form. The requirement to match exactly means you must spend time training.

Even if it's not a 1:1 for fighting capability, training exaggerated stances and motions helps build muscle memory. People tend to shorten up their techniques in an actual fight, so the idea is that you train for those details in your forms, and then in a real situation it comes out in a more practical manner.

I agree there's a benefit to exactness. I don't personally think that benefit extends to fighting application, but I've too little experience with traditional forms practice outside NGA to make a strong case.

 

[skribs]

I agree there's a benefit to exactness. I don't personally think that benefit extends to fighting application, but I've too little experience with traditional forms practice outside NGA to make a strong case.

To me, the exactness is more about following the teachings of the Master.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To me, the exactness is more about following the teachings of the Master.

And it helps build a discipline (skill) of working with detail. Some of us don't have that naturally, and really benefit from spending some time focusing there.

 

[CB Jones]

The parsley on the side of the plate ain't the meal, but it helps the meal presentation.

Incorrect.

Parsley is part of the meal.

It helps with digestion, reduces gas and bloating, reduce water retention, and freshens your breath. It is intended to be ate at the end of the meal.

So just because someone might not understand something's purpose that does not mean its purpose does not exist.

 

[Mitlov]

Incorrect.

Parsley is part of the meal.

It helps with digestion, reduces gas and bloating, reduce water retention, and freshens your breath. It is intended to be ate after your meal.

So just because someone might not understand something's purpose that does not mean its purpose does not exist.

Not to mention, I think that Filho and Machida know enough about fight training to know the difference between (1) ritual associated with training (like bowing and mokuso) and (2) a component of the training itself. Both treat kihon and kata as a component of training when they train people.

Personally, while part of what I enjoy about forms is more ritual performance (like haka in rugby), I definitely think forms training made me move the way I do when I spar. That characteristic mechanic that karate folks have, with a straighter back and lower shoulders and the like? I think kihon and kata causes that. It doesn't come out of nowhere.

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree there's a benefit to exactness. I don't personally think that benefit extends to fighting application, but I've too little experience with traditional forms practice outside NGA to make a strong case.

I think it does extend to fighting application.

In forms practice (and any foundational work), you practice to be as exact as you can be, because that is where the technique is most effective. In the chaos of a fight, your technique will not be perfect, it will break down. But the more perfect the practice is, the better the technique will hold up in the chaos of a fight, and the more effective it will be.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

De escalation is not commonly taught. Nor is it fully viable in all situations. It is important for self defence, but i haven't used that term for why i want to seek martial arts, since i came to the conclusion saying combat is better. (which is uncommon in martial arts to learn BTW, as they don't teach you scaling force usually, de escalation etc, you need to seek out specilist instruction or a uncommon type of school)

And the moral and judicial argument and elaboration of above is probably outside the scope of this thread as this is strictly about forms. Just in case what i stated looks like a borderline ToS break, all i will say is, so long as you have lawful authority to use violence in that situation its up to your own moral judgement if you do or not. (which knowing my typex, it looked greyzone to endorsing unlawful violence. )

And for self defence the first is paramount but read above. Both about my view on it and how the category of martial arts school, usually doesn't teach self defence skills to you. Wouldn't call it common, wouldn't call it rare, so its uncommom if they do. How ever there are some specialist schools which fall outside the martial art category i would say, which do teach you these skills.

I think Ramsey Dewy said something like(in relation to RBSD i think or bad MA):"they teach you how to face violence with wimpy violence"

edit: Martial arts and combat sports also help people with aggression, anger and violence issues also. varying amounts but it gives them a positive place to release it and help control it.

All but one of the schools ove trained at has spent time focusing on de escalation and the other 'soft skills'. The one that didn't, was a competition art, where most of the people there competed, so that was their main focus.

So from my own experience it's pretty common.

 

[Buka]

I'm an Emancipation Proclamation guy. I am so dead set against the whole Master term and concept in Martial Arts it makes my head hurt.

 

[skribs]

I think it does extend to fighting application.

In forms practice (and any foundational work), you practice to be as exact as you can be, because that is where the technique is most effective. In the chaos of a fight, your technique will not be perfect, it will break down. But the more perfect the practice is, the better the technique will hold up in the chaos of a fight, and the more effective it will be.

This is what my Master teaches. He wants everyone to kick a few feet higher in practice than they need to in sparring, because when you get tired and your kicks get lower, your kicks are at the right height.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

All but one of the schools ove trained at has spent time focusing on de escalation and the other 'soft skills'. The one that didn't, was a competition art, where most of the people there competed, so that was their main focus.

So from my own experience it's pretty common.

Specialist schools or not? (just curious)

i haven't seen it and 3 call themselves martial arts. As i was going to write, it was the case of it not being that common a while ago, so its probably changed as there is little excuse for it now days. And all 3 used self defence somewhere in their advertisements. (and if they didn't teach it to beginners thats just shame on them in my view)

Anyway, thats slightly off point for the thread, pahaha.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Specialist schools or not? (just curious)

i haven't seen it and 3 call themselves martial arts. As i was going to write, it was the case of it not being that common a while ago, so its probably changed as there is little excuse for it now days. And all 3 used self defence somewhere in their advertisements. (and if they didn't teach it to beginners thats just shame on them in my view)

Anyway, thats slightly off point for the thread, pahaha.

Nope, none are specialist. One advertised self-defense, but that was it.
I think part of it might be how much time you spent in the school. If you spend a month there, or less, you might not see it. Not because it's not important, but either a: bad luck on the days you went, or b: they teach physical stuff first because that's what people are looking to learn. If you sign up for a martial art, and spend half the class learning about spatial awareness or "how to talk good", you're probably not going to come back. If you've been there for a bit, have learned the basics and had little smidgens of it added in, you might be more receptive to learning it.

 

[Headhunter]

Specialist schools or not? (just curious)

i haven't seen it and 3 call themselves martial arts. As i was going to write, it was the case of it not being that common a while ago, so its probably changed as there is little excuse for it now days. And all 3 used self defence somewhere in their advertisements. (and if they didn't teach it to beginners thats just shame on them in my view)

Anyway, thats slightly off point for the thread, pahaha.

Wrong again. It was taught to me in a number of different places including a boxing gym I trained at over 30 years ago

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think it does extend to fighting application.

In forms practice (and any foundational work), you practice to be as exact as you can be, because that is where the technique is most effective. In the chaos of a fight, your technique will not be perfect, it will break down. But the more perfect the practice is, the better the technique will hold up in the chaos of a fight, and the more effective it will be.

While I don't entirely agree, there's a good concept at work there. And if I think hard enough, I'll probably find something in my own training that follows that concept.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's patently harder to teach a karate guy to box than an untrained guy, for instance. The karate guy will punch and move karate style because muscle memory.

But if the karate guy wants to learn how to box then that's the natural course of learning. I've seen it go the other way around where boxers came to my school and we tried to get them to learn how to relax and move in a way that would allow them to use big punches and kicks. They always had a hard time trying to relax and trying not to move as a boxer. If they really want to learn kung fu then that's the natural way of learning.

And it's not so much as "unlearning" as it is "just learning something new." I don't "unlearn" how to play the piano when I'm "leaning" how to play the guitar. I'm just learning how to do something new and use my fingers in a new way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The untrained guy will have no such hurdle.

The untrained guy may not have the hurdle of breaking previous punching methods. The trained guy has a better understanding of punching and how to do it correctly, even if he has to learn how to do it a different way. A trained guy would already have a better understanding of fist structure and driving power. He may also have a better understanding of how to evade and set up attacks. An untrained guy is going to be lost in that area.

Just like people who know how to spar always look like they know what they are doing even if they are training a different system. Those who are untrained in sparring always look like they shouldn't be doing.
No matter what system I train in. I will never have this hurdle. Untrained people almost always do. A trained person looks at this and already knows how it's going to turn out before punches are even thrown.

This guy probably never did any realistic sparring in his life. This one hurdle that I'm glad I got over when I was 7 and taking karate. If my hurdle is just learning how to punch in a different way then I'm fine with that. Once I get over that hurdle my previous experience will allow me to progress at a much faster pace than someone who is coming without any experience including the basic understanding of incoming punches.

 

[Martial D]

Incorrect.

Parsley is part of the meal.

It helps with digestion, reduces gas and bloating, reduce water retention, and freshens your breath. It is intended to be ate at the end of the meal.

So just because someone might not understand something's purpose that does not mean its purpose does not exist.

Dude. I train every day. I've spent years doing forms in cma. Aren't you a martial arts soccer dad? Lol

 

[Mitlov]

Dude. I train every day. I've spent years doing forms in cma. Aren't you a martial arts soccer dad? Lol

So you erased "go cheerlead your son" and you replaced it with "aren't you a martial arts soccer dad? Lol". Either way, rude, tasteless, and unproductive.

 

[Martial D]

Further, I do understand the purpose of forms and kata. To convolute and extend training times to keep the sensei dollars rolling in. As it has been for generations now.

Why teach in a week what they will pay you 200 bucks a month for a year to learn right?

 

[Martial D]

So you erased "go cheerlead your son" and you replaced it with "aren't you a martial arts soccer dad? Lol". Either way, rude, tasteless, and unproductive.

So some dude that doesn't train in anything makes some smug remark that the guy that came up in a form heavy ma 'doesnt understand their purpose' because he doesn't like me calling ******** on his sons hobby.

And some sensitive Nancy offers me a dislike and a scolding for it.

Am I supposed to care?

 

[Hanzou]

This is actually a common perspective of many people who take a traditional martial art, or just martial arts in general. They don't care as much about the fighting as they do about the exercise and staying fit.

While true, the danger is in people who think that the performance of pretty forms translates into fighting ability.