What does a Black Belt mean to you?

[MJS]

I really agreed with some of KickCatcher's points. Where I train, there are no belts. That being said, will I never get to REALLY start learning as I'll never get a BB? Will I be training the rest of my life never really having the basics down as a result of not going to a school that charges me for a belt test? I also agree that the discipline of those guys that train in those *combative sports filled with rules* is what most impresses me. Not to say that Im not impressed with those who have been in other arts for many moons, its just not my flavor. Also for the record, theres plenty of BB's I'd never want to have to fight.

Many people think that once they reach BB, they have reached the end of the road. The fact of the matter is, is that the road is really just beginning. While there may not be more to learn physically, this is the time that one goes back and really breaks down the material that they've already learned. Its not going to matter if the system has belts, no belts, colored tshirts, or whatever else to signify rank, the fact is, is that once the higher levels have been reached, that is the time to look at the material.

Mike

 

[masherdong]

Something to hold my pants up.

 

[IcemanSK]

I've always had opposing thoughts about what I respresents. On the one hand, it respresents a great accomplishment for me. Its a milestone that helped set in motion a lot of other accomplishments for me. (It taught me I could accomplish big goals. eg. College & Grad School). But on the other hand, it doesn't mean I've acheived it all. I need to continue & grow in knowledge & practice. Like the saying, "You're only as good as your last workout."

I guess, for me, the word "milestone" sums it up. It is one, but its not the only one. I don't want it to be the only one I hang my hat on. Like so many 45 year old ex- high school ball players who talk about their "glory days," beause they've done nothing since. As much as I love MA, my life is full with out it, too.

 

[cfr]

So I have a question for those that are in belt systems.... Ive heard that in some styles a BB can be obtained in a s little as 18 - 24 months, and others as long as 7 - 10 years. Should a BB mean more or less depending on how long it takes to achieve? If I posted here that I got a BB in 3 months, would a lot of you think to yourselves "he doesnt even have the basics, let alone deserve a BB"? Wouldnt that go against the idea that a "BB means that you have the basics"? This is just one of the problems I have with belts.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

So I have a question for those that are in belt systems.... Ive heard that in some styles a BB can be obtained in a s little as 18 - 24 months, and others as long as 7 - 10 years. Should a BB mean more or less depending on how long it takes to achieve? If I posted here that I got a BB in 3 months, would a lot of you think to yourselves "he doesnt even have the basics, let alone deserve a BB"? Wouldnt that go against the idea that a "BB means that you have the basics"? This is just one of the problems I have with belts.

You are absolutely right, there is no set standard. Personally, it will just be a bit shy of seven years for mine if all goes well in May. So, if used as a benchmark of actual skill, it'll be subjective and not objective. As a goal, I think it's a good one. Hopefully by then the practioner will realize it's not the end though.

 

[cfr]

Personally, it will just be a bit shy of seven years for mine if all goes well in May.

Good luck.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Good luck.

Thanks a lot. I'm pretty sure I'm ready. I'm told they wouldn't be testing me if I wasn't.

 

[kickcatcher]

A blackbelt means you have collected enough little badges?

 

[terryl965]

Kickcatcher are you a BB or ever have the quest to be one. Why are you so against BB, did one beat you up when you was a child, not trying to be funny, just that all your concerns about everybody else is distribing to me.
Terry

 

[kickcatcher]

I just think that blackbelts in themselves mean about naught, at least objectively. It's not grade envy.

 

[MJS]

So I have a question for those that are in belt systems.... Ive heard that in some styles a BB can be obtained in a s little as 18 - 24 months, and others as long as 7 - 10 years. Should a BB mean more or less depending on how long it takes to achieve? If I posted here that I got a BB in 3 months, would a lot of you think to yourselves "he doesnt even have the basics, let alone deserve a BB"? Wouldnt that go against the idea that a "BB means that you have the basics"? This is just one of the problems I have with belts.

If I went into a school and they told me that I could get a BB in 3 mos. I'd RUN not walk away from that school!!

IMHO, the BB, as well as all of the others inbetween, should be earned, NOT given away. Of course, people who seem to be in a hurry to get from one belt to the next, are not interested in learning the material, but instead a new piece of cloth to wear. Sadly, in todays day and age, there are some school owners that are more concerned with the $$ they bring in, and people are concerned not with quality but the quantity of belts.

If we're talking about a school that does not use belts, but instead lets say levels, the same thing can be said. You can have someone at a high level, and they may look like garbage when performing their material.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Kickcatcher are you a BB or ever have the quest to be one. Why are you so against BB, did one beat you up when you was a child, not trying to be funny, just that all your concerns about everybody else is distribing to me.
Terry

Most likely Terry, its because there are no belts in MMA.

Mike

 

[kickcatcher]

Most likely Terry, its because there are no belts in MMA.

Mike

Interesting assumption. My thoughts on belts are typical of the MMA community I expect, but i'm not swayed by whether MMA has belts or not in my own thoughts. Sombo, Judo, BJJ all have belts - I admire much about those arts. But I look beyond the belts before I attempt to gauge someone's merit.

 

[MJS]

Interesting assumption. My thoughts on belts are typical of the MMA community I expect, but i'm not swayed by whether MMA has belts or not in my own thoughts. Sombo, Judo, BJJ all have belts - I admire much about those arts. But I look beyond the belts before I attempt to gauge someone's merit.

No, not really an assumption, just an opinion based on your history of posts.

As I said, I feel that many times, people in the arts, are more concerned with what belt they have around their waist and how fast they can progress, rather than the quality of their material.

An old instructor of mine used to have a saying, "Quality over quantity" and that is very true! I've seen people do half *** pushups and situps, just so they can be the first ones done, when in fact, they really didn't get much out of it. The ones who take their time, using proper form, will get much better results.

Mike

 

[cfr]

Interesting assumption. My thoughts on belts are typical of the MMA community I expect, but i'm not swayed by whether MMA has belts or not in my own thoughts. Sombo, Judo, BJJ all have belts - I admire much about those arts. But I look beyond the belts before I attempt to gauge someone's merit.

So now Im curious, what do you base someone's merit on? For the record I am NOT taking sides with anyone here, just curious.

 

[kickcatcher]

So now Im curious, what do you base someone's merit on? For the record I am NOT taking sides with anyone here, just curious.

Good question. It depends, merit in relation to what? If I want to gauge how good someone is at fighting for example, I'd try to look at their sparring, their sports fighting record if they have one, their training, their history of real life conflict (very hard to gauge cos you can't witness it, and you rarely hear it straight), their conditioning etc. The colour of their belt is an aside.

 

[Flying Crane]

This conversation is going in an interesting direction. What seems to me is becoming clear is that the Martial Arts community sort of has a Love-Hate relationship with the belt system. Those who study an art that includes belt rankings believe it has merit, and believe that they themselves have trained hard to earn their belt, but lament the general "cheapening" of the belt that is the result of low quality instruction, low standards, and belt "factories". But since there are no universally accepted yardsticks, it is all based on perspective. While I may believe I worked tremendously hard to earn my rank, someone else may take a look at my abilities and think that I must have bought my belt from a profit-motivated instructor and not learned a thing. It is a little hard to argue convincingly one way or the other, because of this lack of an objective yardstick.

Those who practice an art that does not use a belt system or other comparable heirarchy often put little stock in the system and feel the belt is meaningless. While the belt itself is meaningless and anyone could buy one of any color they want from any supplier, it is supposed to be symbolic of one's growth within their art and should have some meaning. We just cannot agree upon what that meaning is, esp. for the coveted Black Belt.

I have posted my thoughts on this a couple of times in other threads so I won't repeat in so much detail, but I think the lower level belts can have a motivating factor on a student, and hopefully a competent instructor will use this to encourage students to truly grow, not just want a new color every couple of months. I think the high levels of blackbelt should be done away with, however, and it should simply be "Black Belt." Once one reaches this level, they should not continue to need the carrot dangled in front of their faces. If they do, then they don't deserve the rank they have.

 

[kickcatcher]

I think the high levels of blackbelt should be done away with, however, and it should simply be "Black Belt." Once one reaches this level, they should not continue to need the carrot dangled in front of their faces. If they do, then they don't deserve the rank they have.

Interesting point.

 

[MJS]

Good question. It depends, merit in relation to what? If I want to gauge how good someone is at fighting for example, I'd try to look at their sparring, their sports fighting record if they have one, their training, their history of real life conflict (very hard to gauge cos you can't witness it, and you rarely hear it straight), their conditioning etc. The colour of their belt is an aside.

So you base someones fight skill on how many, if any at all, sport type events they've fought in?? Certainly does not sound like a solid base to go off of. If this is what you go off I'd have to say that you have a very distorted view of the Martial Arts. I don't need to enter a MMA event to know how my skills are. I know many people that do not compete in the sense you're talking about, that are more than confident with their skill level.

Also, keep in mind that many of those people you're basing this off of...the MMA crowd...devote the majority if not all of their time to training. Just because someone may not have the body of Shamrock, does not mean that they are incapable of defending themselves.

Out of curiosity, what is your MA experience?

 

[stone_dragone]

... in some styles a BB can be obtained in a s little as 18 - 24 months, and others as long as 7 - 10 years. Should a BB mean more or less depending on how long it takes to achieve? If I posted here that I got a BB in 3 months ...

I think that all would agree that what one earns too easliy is esteemed too lightly. It is only natural for someone who sweated much, bled much and mended broken bones and sprains over a 6 year period on the road to BB would hold his BB higher in esteem than the person who practiced 3x a week for 18 months, hardly breaking a sweat and recieved a BB.

If BB is not in your path, then you might have something else worth attaining (perhaps it's that one perfect fight that you got on tape or your teacher's blessing for you to teach). Either way, the value of one's BB is highly personal and subjective to that person's selected peer group and it's value is mostly irrelevent outside of those confines.

My contemporary's Army combatives competition record, although impressive, means as little to me as my BB does to him...not because either wasn't earned; not because they weren't both worked hard for, bled for, sacrificed for; they are both valued achievements of different types.

Trying to compare a comptetion athlete to a BB martial arts student would be like comparing the artistic value of Mozart's Symphony #40 to Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. Both of them are considered to be of tremendous value; both were labors of love; both were landmark achievements; one took months to write, the other took a train ride from Washington DC to southern Pennsylvania.

The difference between me and many of my contemporaries is this...I see the value in their training, in their accomplishments. It is usually not reciprocated. Doesn't need to be, either...not for me to sleep at night, anyway.