What do you consider spiritual?

[windwalker099]

You'll have to explain this a little more. I'm not sure what you mean. .

The meaning shown
what cannot be explained

Practices can be viewed through results
a result not the point of the practice.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The meaning shown
what cannot be explained

Practices can be viewed through results
a result not the point of the practice.

So what do you think about the practice after getting the unexpected result?

 

[Gyakuto]

It seems like hallucinations, which also presents itself in artificial neural networks. It is sometimes associated to "overfitting" insignificant details. The hallucinations are "extrapolations" that disconnects to reality (so a failure from the predictive perspective), while at the same time beeing perfectly consistent with the neural net predictions.

I didn’t know that!

I suspect the magnetic coils in that experiment might have been replaced by allowing participants in the same dark room, to sit on a popsicle. There is a good chance that many would have strange hallucinations?

Persinger is able to induce specific experiences, predictably which suggests this is not simply the effect of sensory deprivation.

One could ask; during what conditions are a neural net more like to start hallucinate?

I think that’s what governed the placement of the magnetic could; over the temporal lobe.

A wild guess might that that when put into an "odd situation", where there is little confidence in the predictions, maybe strange things are more likely to envisioned. Someone the whole sitaution, or beeing asked to relax, sit in a dark, room, attached to weird gadgets, likel puts your brain into unusual states, where it as "little training"...

Have you ever tried sitting in a floatation tank? I haven’t, but I really want to having heard of others weird, neurally generated hallucinations!

I am not sure I would choose speak about spirituality in any of these cases. But fooling a predictive system, or getting it to derail is certainly interesting!! Both from perspectives of AI modelling and from psychiatry I guess.

I think the point being made is that these artificially produced ‘spiritual experiences’ are what people are experiencing in the big wide world. Some have suggested that local geomagnetic concentrations in rocks, caves etc and the like can trigger these neural spiritual circuits, some desperate religious people say those circuits were placed in the brain by Thor/Wotan/Zeus/Yahweh so they could easily communicate with humans. A simple voice coming out of a physical person would be slightly less ambiguous.

 

[Gyakuto]

Soooo. Here's the thing about that. Ancient civilizations have always said that the visions were tuned into a specific frequency. This is why chanting is often done as a part of meditation.
1.

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No matter what religion or culture you pic, there is a verbal chant that goes with prayer/meditation. The entire concept is that people perceive things on Frequencies and depending on the frequency you can have spiritual travel, visions, and other good and bad stuff happen. All of them have always said that it was about frequencies.

As a teenager I used to improve on the piano and one day while playing I could hear someone walking up the steps over the sound of the Piano. I went to check but no one was there. I haven't done it since then and I'm hesitant to do so. I get enough strange stuff happening where I live without trying to make it happen.

I found an ocean clip that I play to help me relax and sleep. I can't remember which of the two gave me my experience. I think it was the second one. Therese are like 2 minute audio that can be looped. I won't play the ocean sounds at night anymore because of what I experienced. The thing is that both me and my wife both heard the same thing. She thought it was the audio and I told her that it wasn't coming from the audio. When I play back the audio I don't hear what I heard. My wife is more sensitive to things like that and she had been complaining for a month about it. I brushed it off until I heard it. And I was like "Ohhhhhh so that's what she was hearing."

1. Sands of Time Ocean Sounds (1) - Album: Deep Sleep Melodies | Deep sleep
View attachment 32335

2. Oceanic Soundscapes Soothing Nature sounds - Album: Wave Recordings Ocean Sound Machine
View attachment 32336

The other thing that the guy in the video said about chemical and environmental effects were known by ancient civiliations. Look up Ley Lines. Then look at how many religious sites were built on top of them.
The thing about this stuff is that people experience similar things even without the chanting and many have shared experiences. My guess is that science will easily explain the individual experiences but they will have a difficult time in explaining shared experiences. If people see and hear the same thing at the same time without any suggestions, then it's difficult to say that "Its just in your mind."

It's going to get really difficult when it's a shared experience especially if it's with Animals and Humans.
If anyone has napster and wants to try that Second Wave audio while you sleep. Let me know. I'll tell someone else here what I experienced to see if the experiences are the same. Based on things I read in the past. It's all about frequencies. My experienced happened when I had a deep sleep for 1 hour which never happens. According to my watch deepsleep is like a 5 or 10 minute thing for me.

Chanting, eyes fixed/ close -> sensory deprivation. It doesn’t have to be total loss of all the sense for the brain to try and fill in the spaces

I once attended a Japanese drumming weekend and after a few minutes concentrating and hearing the thunderous the drums as we beat out complex rhythms I had a brief out-of-body experience. Sensory deprivation.

As soon as I hear ‘spiritual people’ say the words the frequency or vibrations, I think, ‘of what’ closely followed by rolling my internal eyes

 

[Fungus]

I didn’t know that!

Persinger is able to induce specific experiences, predictably which suggests this is not simply the effect of sensory deprivation.

Ok, only sensory depriation alone might not be it and that physically manipulating the brain or cells, either mechanically by needles or electromagnetically will perturb the brain including it's predictions or visions seems perfectly logical. I am not questioning that principle. There is TMS and DBS used in various therapies. And There are MEG scans, that correlates the magnetic field with neural activity.

But that extremely weak fields would induce a specific responses to seems a bit improbable. But that it might (except the fields are a bit weak) cause some unspecific confusion or memory halusications crosstalk is at least logically possible.

I did a quick search and it seems these "results" are not easily reproduced, there are mixed follow ups. Perhpas there is a selection bias, or that certain "spiritual subjects" sees what they wish to see in such confusion states?

Have you ever tried sitting in a floatation tank? I haven’t, but I really want to having heard of others weird, neurally generated hallucinations!

No, it would be fun to try.
Btw in your favourite show Cobra Kai season 5 episode 3 Sam enters such a tank!

I think the point being made is that these artificially produced ‘spiritual experiences’ are what people are experiencing in the big wide world.

That is probably true. But I think the helmet has little influence.

Some have suggested that local geomagnetic concentrations in rocks, caves etc and the like can trigger these neural spiritual circuits, some desperate religious people say those

I find this geomagnetic influence to be probablyh paraspsychological wishful thinking.

From the perspective of principles; of course there is a electromagnetic field around neural networks, and it could "sense" interactions physically but I find suggestibility and other biases to be fare more probable explanations than that an external weak field would induce these things in the big chaotic picture.

 

[windwalker099]

Inspired by another thread, I'm curious about what people consider to be spiritual.

good thread

Your thoughts ?

From the perspective of principles; of course there is a electromagnetic field around neural networks, and it could "sense" interactions physically but I find suggestibility and other biases to be fare more probable explanations than that an external weak field would induce these things in the big chaotic picture.

Are there practices that you do that you or others would consider "spiritual"

 

[Buka]

Are vivid dreams hallucinations of a sort?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Chanting, eyes fixed/ close -> sensory deprivation.

Does anyone know if the blind pick up on the same things? Do blind people have similar experiences.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Are vivid dreams hallucinations of a sort?

I think they are classified as 2 different things. Dreams being normal and Hallucinations being abnormal. If you tell your doctor that you Hallucinate, then your doctor will be concerned. If you tell your doctor that you dream then there's not the same concern. I also think that sleep is the only way we can dream.

 

[Gyakuto]

Ok, only sensory depriation alone might not be it and that physically manipulating the brain or cells, either mechanically by needles or electromagnetically will perturb the brain including it's predictions or visions seems perfectly logical. I am not questioning that principle. There is TMS and DBS used in various therapies. And There are MEG scans, that correlates the magnetic field with neural activity.

I used to use TMS in my motor control and even music research (single shot, 1.5 Tesla). I borrowed a unit from the inventor, Professor Tony Barker, who worked in the Medical physics department at Sheffield’s Hallamshire Hospital! I used to zap my brain with it all the time and anyone who can in my office…they’d dance about like monkeys on a hot plate It left a metallic taste in one’s mouth.

But that extremely weak fields would induce a specific responses to seems a bit improbable.

Au contraire! Biological voltages/current are tiny and it’s the cumulative effect of the magnetic field of the coils that summate and that cause depolarisations in the brain.

But that it might (except the fields are a bit weak) cause some unspecific confusion or memory halusications crosstalk is at least logically possible.

Memories become hardwired with rehearsal, so it’s unlikely they’d be altered. Confusion is a more global effect.

I did a quick search and it seems these "results" are not easily reproduced, there are mixed follow ups. Perhpas there is a selection bias, or that certain "spiritual subjects" sees what they wish to see in such confusion states?

Persinger said he could produce the effects in people of differing spiritual beliefs and attitudes. How they interpreted them was dependant upon their attitudes. Religious? Did you watch the video of Sue Blackmore? She’s an atheist. Interestingly the helmet elicited no response in Richard Dawkins

No, it would be fun to try.
Btw in your favourite show Cobra Kai season 5 episode 3 Sam enters such a tank!

How dare you!

That is probably true. But I think the helmet has little influence.

I find this geomagnetic influence to be probablyh paraspsychological wishful thinking.

Yes, it’s boll*cks.

From the perspective of principles; of course there is a electromagnetic field around neural networks,

They’d have to be varying to cause depolarisation.

and it could "sense" interactions physically but I find suggestibility and other biases to be fare more probable explanations than that an external weak field would induce these things in the big chaotic picture.

It’s likely suggestibility has an influence in the interpretation of the induced effects but I’m convinced brain areas are being stimulated by the the coils. There are many papers on the technique published in good journals

Persinger, MA; et al. (2010). "The Electromagnetic Induction of Mystical and Altered States Within the Laboratory". Journal of Consciousness Exploration & Research. 1 (7): 808–830.

Sorry, this is a bit old-,

Persinger, Michael A; Healey, Faye (2002). "Experimental facilitation of the sensed presence: possible intercalation between the hemispheres induced by complex magnetic fields". The Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease. 190 (8): 533–41.
Persinger, M A (1993). "Vectorial cerebral hemisphericity as differential sources for the sensed presence, mystical experiences and religious conversions". Perceptual and Motor Skills. 76 (3 Pt 1): 915–30.

 

[Gyakuto]

Are vivid dreams hallucinations of a sort?

By definition they are, because they’re not ‘real’ events.

 

[Gyakuto]

Does anyone know if the blind pick up on the same things? Do blind people have similar experiences.

If you deprive them of sensory information - hearing, tactile information, then their brains will internally produce them. The brain functions to make sense of sensory data to maximise survival. In their absence, it’ll do what it can to join the dots and often get things wrong!

 

[Gyakuto]

A real hallucination! I like it!

I find the pre- and post-sleep phase (hypnagogic state) very creative, often coming up with good ideas on all manner of things. Physicist Lord William Thomson Kelvin used to take his post lunch nap in a chair with a hollow steel ball in his hand so that he’d drop it if he fell fully asleep, the clatter would wake him up and any good ideas he had could be easily recalled.

 

[Buka]

By definition they are, because they’re not ‘real’ events.

Oh, good. I wouldn’t want to lose my hallucinationship.

 

[Fungus]

Au contraire! Biological voltages/current are tiny and it’s the cumulative effect of the magnetic field of the coils that summate and that cause depolarisations in the brain.

Yes, but for example TMS Magnetic fields are huge! the order of 1 T - thus is huge.

The real question is is it within reason that a uT field of god helemet(?) at the frequencies used, can depolarize a neuron? Seems questionable to me.

They’d have to be varying to cause depolarisation.

Yes, and the smaller the field, the higher the frequency required.

I wonder if the gold helmets induced field strenght is enough? Isn't this one argument from sceptists?

What field strength is required to depolarize a neuron?

found this
Sensitivity of Neurons to Weak Electric Fields - PMC suggests 0.1V/m... but i think i've read it's typically higher for robust depolarisation?

I think at 1 uT that requires 250Hz, so that is perhaps a optimistic limit?
What is god helmet frequency range?

 

[Gyakuto]

Yes, but for example TMS Magnetic fields are huge! the order of 1 T - thus is huge.

The real question is is it within reason that a uT field of god helemet(?) at the frequencies used, can depolarize a neuron? Seems questionable to me.

About -50mV is required.

Yes, and the smaller the field, the higher the frequency required.

I wonder if the gold helmets induced field strenght is enough? Isn't this one argument from sceptists?

Won’t these data be in Persinger’s papers?

What field strength is required to depolarize a neuron?

Hmmmm..I don’t know….

found this
Sensitivity of Neurons to Weak Electric Fields - PMC suggests 0.1V/m... but i think i've read it's typically higher for robust depolarisation?

Depolarisation in all-or-none.

I think at 1 uT that requires 250Hz, so that is perhaps a optimistic limit?
What is god helmet frequency range?

Read the paper Fungus, I know jack sh*t!

 

[Holmejr]

So does this mean UFO’s are real or are they spiritual delusions brought about by magnetism or low energy cell towers or really hot curry…