What Do The Tenets of Taekwondo Have to Do With Hate?

[dancingalone]

It would be impossible to separate one's self from everything negative.....we're human. It's just that I see so much contention in a sphere of life where there should be more attempts at unity.....then again, perhaps my naivete has gotten the better of me?

I'm truly interested in folks' opinions on the matter.

I think one can take the 'feel good' character-building aspects of martial arts too far. I think your post that started this discussion is far too extreme a position. Dissent & differing opinions are all essential attributes of individuals - it is no wrong to value different things. And that's before we even bring taekwondo into the discussion. Taekwondo is a martial art, sometimes a martial sport - it's not an exercise in http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&...resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=homogeneity&spell=1homogeneity nor should it be a religion.

 

[terryl965]

One should try to live there lifes with great Tenets and not just inside the dojaang

 

[chungdokwan123]

I think one can take the 'feel good' character-building aspects of martial arts too far. I think your post that started this discussion is far too extreme a position. Dissent & differing opinions are all essential attributes of individuals - it is no wrong to value different things. And that's before we even bring taekwondo into the discussion. Taekwondo is a martial art, sometimes a martial sport - it's not an exercise in homogeneity nor should it be a religion.

dancingalone
".......made an interesting point and I thought it would be good for further discussion."

But not anymore?

I'm not criticizing a differing opinion......perhaps the mode and depth of said, but not the opinion........nor the opinion giver.

I think one can take the 'feel good' character-building aspects of martial arts too far.

Really? A person can develop too much character?

If we want to draw parallels to aid in discussion, then let's draw more relevant ones. I could expound upon the state of today's society and point to our having turned away from the basic tenets of our country's founding......the Constitution. Philosophically relevant, perhaps.....but not specifically relevant.

Or we can try this: Let's accept for a moment that any TKD discipline that engages in sparring has a sport aspect to it. I don't think that's stretching the boundaries. Now, let's look at other sports.....and the multitude of negative press that accompanies them. Scandal, corruption, and brushes with the law on behalf of participants abound. Michael Vick, Mike Tyson, the recent exploits of the players from the University of Tennessee......and on and on and on. Where were the basic tenets and character building facets of the sports in which they engaged? Do they even exist?

Let's ask another question. Separate for a moment TKD practitioners into "sport" versus "art" groups. This is not to suggest that there isn't a coupling between the two.....not at all. For most there very likely is. Yet which group would be more likely to encounter trouble with misrepresenting marital arts in general by misusing their skills for nefarious purposes?

Would that be the group more grounded in heavy character building through universally accepted tenets, or the group more focused on "sport"?

I beg to differ with your contention. While I agree that TKD shouldn't be a religion, perhaps a bit more homogeneity would be beneficial......and more importantly, I submit that it is the very basis of TKD philosophies that make it, as with other traditional arts, as separate and distinct from other activities as it is possible to be.

Or perhaps you would prefer that our art morph into something resembling UFC?

Ground-and-pound anyone?

 

[dancingalone]

But not anymore?

I'm not criticizing a differing opinion......perhaps the mode and depth of said, but not the opinion........nor the opinion giver.

I'm discussing the topic. Just because I disagree with your perspective doesn't mean I'm stepping over the line or being rude. Please re-read everything I wrote before coming to any conclusion along those lines.

Really? A person can develop too much character?

Perhaps. TKD is at its core a fighting system. I am simply saying some may be binding more into it than they should. If you want a surfeit of philosophy, I would suggest studying it as its own subject, as it deserves much more attention than a few fortune cookie sayings during an hour long TKD session.

If we want to draw parallels to aid in discussion, then let's draw more relevant ones. I could expound upon the state of today's society and point to our having turned away from the basic tenets of our country's founding......the Constitution. Philosophically relevant, perhaps.....but not specifically relevant.

Yeah, that's even further out into left field. So I wouldn't go there.

Or we can try this: Let's accept for a moment that any TKD discipline that engages in sparring has a sport aspect to it. I don't think that's stretching the boundaries. Now, let's look at other sports.....and the multitude of negative press that accompanies them. Scandal, corruption, and brushes with the law on behalf of participants abound. Michael Vick, Mike Tyson, the recent exploits of the players from the University of Tennessee......and on and on and on. Where were the basic tenets and character building facets of the sports in which they engaged? Do they even exist?

I wouldn't even begin to compare NCAA football with pro boxing with taekwondo either traditional or sport. Apples and oranges.

Let's ask another question. Separate for a moment TKD practitioners into "sport" versus "art" groups. This is not to suggest that there isn't a coupling between the two.....not at all. For most there very likely is. Yet which group would be more likely to encounter trouble with misrepresenting marital arts in general by misusing their skills for nefarious purposes?

Would that be the group more grounded in heavy character building through universally accepted tenets, or the group more focused on "sport"?

I probably wouldn't be the one to ask about that. I'm for returning TKD more universally towards an effective fighting system, not one for sport or for teaching children how to be nice to one another.

I beg to differ with your contention. While I agree that TKD shouldn't be a religion, perhaps a bit more homogeneity would be beneficial......and more importantly, I submit that it is the very basis of TKD philosophies that make it, as with other traditional arts, as separate and distinct from other activities as it is possible to be.

Not really. The tenets of TKD are clearly inspired by the various dojo kun recited by karate-ka across Japan and Okinawa. Most Shotokan dojos used one similar to this one:

Seek perfection of character
Protect the way of the truth
Foster the spirit of effort
Respect the principles of etiquette and respect others
Guard against impetuous courage and refrain from violent behavior.

The tenets of TKD (courtesy, integrity, etc) are very similar indeed and probably owed a great deal to what Gichin Funakoshi promulgated.

As for more homogenuity, I don't support it. There are too many TKD groups around the world all with distinct expressions of what TKD means to them. I see this as a plus rather than a minus because frankly there are many groups I could never see myself training with either because their focus is elsewhere than self-defense practice or because they're too consumed with internal politics.

Or perhaps you would prefer that our art morph into something resembling UFC?
Ground-and-pound anyone?

Well, I practice a traditional karate curriculum with plenty of close range work. It probably resembles ground and pound more than it does sport taekwondo. I prefer it that way myself.

[/quote]

 

[Tez3]

But not anymore?

I'm not criticizing a differing opinion......perhaps the mode and depth of said, but not the opinion........nor the opinion giver.

Really? A person can develop too much character?

If we want to draw parallels to aid in discussion, then let's draw more relevant ones. I could expound upon the state of today's society and point to our having turned away from the basic tenets of our country's founding......the Constitution. Philosophically relevant, perhaps.....but not specifically relevant.

Or we can try this: Let's accept for a moment that any TKD discipline that engages in sparring has a sport aspect to it. I don't think that's stretching the boundaries. Now, let's look at other sports.....and the multitude of negative press that accompanies them. Scandal, corruption, and brushes with the law on behalf of participants abound. Michael Vick, Mike Tyson, the recent exploits of the players from the University of Tennessee......and on and on and on. Where were the basic tenets and character building facets of the sports in which they engaged? Do they even exist?

Let's ask another question. Separate for a moment TKD practitioners into "sport" versus "art" groups. This is not to suggest that there isn't a coupling between the two.....not at all. For most there very likely is. Yet which group would be more likely to encounter trouble with misrepresenting marital arts in general by misusing their skills for nefarious purposes?

Would that be the group more grounded in heavy character building through universally accepted tenets, or the group more focused on "sport"?

I beg to differ with your contention. While I agree that TKD shouldn't be a religion, perhaps a bit more homogeneity would be beneficial......and more importantly, I submit that it is the very basis of TKD philosophies that make it, as with other traditional arts, as separate and distinct from other activities as it is possible to be.

Or perhaps you would prefer that our art morph into something resembling UFC?

Ground-and-pound anyone?

You do know that UFC is actually a trade name for a competition and not a martial art?

I'd also like to point out that MMA fighters don't punch or kick the referees.

Martial arts is about learning to fight, either to defend or attack. You can dress it up with as much pseudo philosophical bumpf as you like but it's fighting. I doubt the originators of karate etc used little phrases to soften the reasons for learning killer strikes nor used martial arts as a moral code. Their moral values and beliefs came from their religions not their martial arts, for them the two may have been interchangable but it's a relatively modern concept that martial arts should provide moral training as well.

Don't think that because you have a written code that you are better than anyone else, the most sporting, generous and upright people I know happen to be MMA practitioners and fighters so don't sneer at us, it goes against your 'respect' stuff somewhat doesn't it?

 

[dortiz]

You could go even further and really look at some of those founders and their histories. That would really make you wonder about those tenants.
I say leave it at that, Its nice to recite them and strive to be better people.
So lets all keep trying. Thats about all we can do.

Dave O.

 

[dancingalone]

but it's a relatively modern concept that martial arts should provide moral training as well.

Well said, Tez.

 

[Tez3]

Well said, Tez.

Ta!

I think all this moralising is due to the way we look at things nowadays. We can't admit that we enjoy such things as weapons, fighting and combat sports, learning to fight doesn't mean we enjoy going around beating people up but it's unfashionable to be what is called over here 'hard', we have to be seen to be soft and happy clappy hence the emphasis on martial arts morality 'training' so that people think it's something other than it is.
By having all these moral 'rules' we are saying 'look, we aren't really learning to kill and maim people, it's to make us into better people, really, honestly', we're telling people to ignore all the physical parts, they are just a side issue and concentrate on 'respecting each other' etc etc.
The thing is though, good people will respect others, will try to lead good lives and a moral life, we don't need brainwashing at martial arts classes, reciting endless cliches.
We need to stand up and say, yes we are martial artists and make no apologies for it. We are proud of what we do and will not make excuses for learning to fight. We don't need mealy mouthed pseudo religious high priests negating our pride in what we do by spouting endless lists of behaviours at us some of which are spurious.
If I feel I have a vice I don't lie down and roll around in shame, I do my damndest to get rid of it. I have no feeling of contempt for others who may have vices either, not my place to judge. To judge is setting myself above others, hardly humble. As for the giving and receiving of gifts when in doubt, claptrap. It's meaningless as is 'promoting the spirit of mutual concessions', sounds like a trade agreement.

Here's the one rule that everyone should live by, martial artist or not
"treat everyone as you would be treated" short, simple to the point, read,mark and inwardly digest then get on with the rest of your life. More training, less talk.

 

[chungdokwan123]

I'm discussing the topic. Just because I disagree with your perspective doesn't mean I'm stepping over the line or being rude. Please re-read everything I wrote before coming to any conclusion along those lines.

I never mentioned rudeness on anyone's part.

Perhaps. TKD is at its core a fighting system. I am simply saying some may be binding more into it than they should. If you want a surfeit of philosophy, I would suggest studying it as its own subject, as it deserves much more attention than a few fortune cookie sayings during an hour long TKD session.

"Fortune cookie sayings"? Is that the extent of what you receive in training? Or is that what you relegate the basic tenets of TKD to?

Yeah, that's even further out into left field. So I wouldn't go there.

I didn't.

I wouldn't even begin to compare NCAA football with pro boxing with taekwondo either traditional or sport. Apples and oranges.

I made no comparison between them in the context of sports. But is there even the same availability of guiding principles within other athletic activities as there tends to be as in martial arts?

My prompting statement:

Let's ask another question. Separate for a moment TKD practitioners into "sport" versus "art" groups. This is not to suggest that there isn't a coupling between the two.....not at all. For most there very likely is. Yet which group would be more likely to encounter trouble with misrepresenting marital arts in general by misusing their skills for nefarious purposes?

Would that be the group more grounded in heavy character building through universally accepted tenets, or the group more focused on "sport"?

To which you replied:

I probably wouldn't be the one to ask about that. I'm for returning TKD more universally towards an effective fighting system, not one for sport or for teaching children how to be nice to one another.

I'm not talking about singing Barney songs in a day care setting, but more to the point......I didn't realize that TKD in general was no long an effective fighting system in the first place. Is that your position?

And further:

As for more homogenuity, I don't support it. There are too many TKD groups around the world all with distinct expressions of what TKD means to them. I see this as a plus rather than a minus because frankly there are many groups I could never see myself training with either because their focus is elsewhere than self-defense practice or because they're too consumed with internal politics.

You don't support the notion of homogeneity, yet you desire a "universal return" of TKD to an effective fighting system. You have quite a conundrum there.

 

[chungdokwan123]

You do know that UFC is actually a trade name for a competition and not a martial art?

That's exactly my point.....without the philosophical aspect of TKD to guide its practitioners in the correct application of the art......you risk devolving into something resembling the aforementioned.

I'd also like to point out that MMA fighters don't punch or kick the referees.

Perhaps yet another justification for my contention? Perhaps the Olympic debacle was due to the lack of what I advocate?

Martial arts is about learning to fight, either to defend or attack. You can dress it up with as much pseudo philosophical bumpf as you like but it's fighting.

I don't think you'll find me denying that we learn to fight.....and much of the sparring we engage in is practicing those things we learn.....and it's fun! I don't understand what it is you disagree with.

I doubt the originators of karate etc used little phrases to soften the reasons for learning killer strikes nor used martial arts as a moral code. Their moral values and beliefs came from their religions not their martial arts, for them the two may have been interchangable but it's a relatively modern concept that martial arts should provide moral training as well.

Yet another dichotomy. "Their" values and beliefs emanated from their respective religions.....way back when......but it's a modern concept? Not possible, friend.

Don't think that because you have a written code that you are better than anyone else, the most sporting, generous and upright people I know happen to be MMA practitioners and fighters so don't sneer at us, it goes against your 'respect' stuff somewhat doesn't it?

Not better.....but definitely different. As for respect....please. Beating the hell out of each other until the blood flows, risking serious debilitating injury and even death doesn't rise to the level of respect, friend. You might want to let that one go.
Furthermore, I'm being introspective about TKD.....and utilizing MMA by which to do so. I have all the respect in the world for those who practice MMA and their abilities, and I've said nothing different. If that is what you wish to practice, it is your privilege to do so.

Pay attention......I'm talking about TKD.

 

[chungdokwan123]

You could go even further and really look at some of those founders and their histories. That would really make you wonder about those tenants.
I say leave it at that, Its nice to recite them and strive to be better people.
So lets all keep trying. Thats about all we can do.

Dave O.

To which founders and histories do you refer? The stormy beginnings of TKD and the intrigue contained therein? In the end, however, it really doesn't matter.

In humankind, enlightenment generally emanates from degeneracy. Otherwise, there is nothing by which to compare.

 

[chungdokwan123]

Ta!

I think all this moralising is due to the way we look at things nowadays. We can't admit that we enjoy such things as weapons, fighting and combat sports, learning to fight doesn't mean we enjoy going around beating people up but it's unfashionable to be what is called over here 'hard', we have to be seen to be soft and happy clappy hence the emphasis on martial arts morality 'training' so that people think it's something other than it is.

If your reply was directed at me, and if you think for one moment that the importance that I place on moral tenets is a defense mechanism to make me feel better about what I do in the face of public opinion, you'd be more than mistaken.

By having all these moral 'rules' we are saying 'look, we aren't really learning to kill and maim people, it's to make us into better people, really, honestly', we're telling people to ignore all the physical parts, they are just a side issue and concentrate on 'respecting each other' etc etc.

No.....we're saying that we learn to defend ourselves, and if that happens to include killing and maiming, then it is done in that context.....and not in the context of bloodlust.

The thing is though, good people will respect others, will try to lead good lives and a moral life, we don't need brainwashing at martial arts classes, reciting endless cliches.

What defines a person as good in the first place? Not reciting endless cliches? What guides them? A vacuum of tenets? Not likely.

We need to stand up and say, yes we are martial artists and make no apologies for it. We are proud of what we do and will not make excuses for learning to fight. We don't need mealy mouthed pseudo religious high priests negating our pride in what we do by spouting endless lists of behaviours at us some of which are spurious.

This has taken quite a turn.....who in the hell said anything about high priests sitting on high? So, I suppose a basic defining code of ethics is out?

If I feel I have a vice I don't lie down and roll around in shame, I do my damndest to get rid of it. I have no feeling of contempt for others who may have vices either, not my place to judge. To judge is setting myself above others, hardly humble. As for the giving and receiving of gifts when in doubt, claptrap. It's meaningless as is 'promoting the spirit of mutual concessions', sounds like a trade agreement.

......and utter confusion rules the moment.

 

[Tez3]

Ta!

If your reply was directed at me, and if you think for one moment that the importance that I place on moral tenets is a defense mechanism to make me feel better about what I do in the face of public opinion, you'd be more than mistaken.

No.....we're saying that we learn to defend ourselves, and if that happens to include killing and maiming, then it is done in that context.....and not in the context of bloodlust.

What defines a person as good in the first place? Not reciting endless cliches? What guides them? A vacuum of tenets? Not likely.

This has taken quite a turn.....who in the hell said anything about high priests sitting on high? So, I suppose a basic defining code of ethics is out?

......and utter confusion rules the moment.

No, what is out is people thinking they are better than the rest of us simply because they do a martial art with catchphrases.

 

[dancingalone]

"I never mentioned rudeness on anyone's part."

It sure seems like that was the direction you were moving in with your remark.

""Fortune cookie sayings"? Is that the extent of what you receive in training? Or is that what you relegate the basic tenets of TKD to?"

Most schools spend perhaps a hour per practice session, yes? Seems an awfully short time to pack in ma instruction AND moral building too. In that context, 'fortune cookie' probably isn't too far from the truth.

"I didn't."

You did. You wrote a whole paragraph about the US Constitution and the Founders.

"I made no comparison between them in the context of sports. But is there even the same availability of guiding principles within other athletic activities as there tends to be as in martial arts? "

There may be. It's still apples and oranges since you're talking about professional endeavors where the goal is to win a sporting contest.


"I'm not talking about singing Barney songs in a day care setting, but more to the point......I didn't realize that TKD in general was no long an effective fighting system in the first place. Is that your position? "

I think it's obvious that TKD is not an effective fighting system for many, particular if they attend one of those schools that are more about building character and rewarding good sportsmanship than about effective self-defense.

"You don't support the notion of homogeneity, yet you desire a "universal return" of TKD to an effective fighting system. You have quite a conundrum there."

It's actually not an inconsistent statement. TKD is foremost a fighting system. If you don't train to defend yourself (dare I say it?) or FIGHT, then you're not doing taekwondo at all. You're dancing in a gi. It's the various curricula across schools that I support diversity in.

 

[miguksaram]

Would that be the group more grounded in heavy character building through universally accepted tenets, or the group more focused on "sport"?

I am confused on this question. Tenets of Taekwondo are taught regardless if the school is "traditional" oriented or "sport" oriented. So why would you think that those who persue sport aspect would not be grounded in the heavy character building? If anything I would thing they would be more grounded in character building because they tend to face an aspect in training that many "traditional" schools are scared to teach, which is failure.

In sports you don't always win and from your loses you figure out what type of person you are. In the tradtional setting it seems everyone is a winner regardless if they deserve to be or not.

 

[granfire]

I think there is a lot of confusion. The Warrior's code was really not established until the Warrior class had virtually no job anymore but lits and lots of time.


Rules always indicate that the reality is vastly different.

However, back to hate and the benefits of having and cultivating it.

Frankly, I don't think there is one. And that epiphany is quiet old.

Like Obsession does one no good, love taken to extreme, hate hampers the course of action.

Hannibal crossed the Alps because of hate. Not much came from it, other than a bunch of dead people, including Hannibal.

Hate is a destructive force. Nothing more, nothing less. The proverb 'revenge is a dish best served cold' did not evolve by chance.

The tenets don't exclude or admonish hate, but acknowledge it's impact, thus Self Control.

 

[Twin Fist]

i disagree

hate is GOOD

hate motivates

hate reminds

hate feeds

hate is your friend

 

[granfire]

i disagree

hate is GOOD

hate motivates

hate reminds

hate feeds

hate is your friend

hate eats you up and destroys you.

As it stands dislike is much healthier, and does not prevent me from dishing it out should need and opportunity arise.

 

[miguksaram]

i disagree

hate is GOOD

hate motivates

hate reminds

hate feeds

hate is your friend

So, by your phrase here it is good to be racist since they pretty much feed on hate. Hate motivates them and feeds them.

 

[Tez3]

I've always like supreme indifference myself.