What do BJJ, Judo, and Wrestling specialize in?

[TMA17]

I had a nice BJJ class last night at the new place. I have to go light because of my neck injury. Signed up for 6 months. The guy i was matched up with was older (late 50's?) and was back after 10 months due to surgery as well LOL. He was great. Was helping me a lot and there were only 5 of us so I got solid training. Even for only doing 2 months worth of BJJ I am always amazed at the control they have over you on the ground. I have zero grappling background and when facing these guys forget it. Nothing I can do. I may do a little Muay Thai in the meantime until I'm fully healed. I have to go light right now so getting choked out could be a problem if I'm not careful. All three of the grappling arts whether it be BJJ/Judo or wrestling are awesome. I wish I had started a lot younger. My gf's son is 10 and wrestling right now.

My idols growing up were Bruce Lee, Muhammad Ali, Mike Tyson and other pro boxers. Wrestling to me was WWE with Hulk Hogan. When my friends in 10th grade brought over the first few UFC fights I was shocked. That changed everything. Don't get me wrong, striking is a necessity and great too.

The most fun so far though was Judo. Time, money and location are an issue so I put that aside for now. I wish there were more Judo/BJJ schools that did both.

 

[Willzzz]

Winning fights.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Winning fights.

That's not a terribly informative reply, nor particularly pertinent to the OP.

 

[Alan Smithee]

It depends on the desires of the head instructor. Some prefer Judo throws, others prefer wrestling, while others prefer old school Gracie takedowns,..

But Gracie school takedowns include judo throws. I just made a thread about it What are the other ones you think are Gracie type? "Bear hug" takedown?

 

[Alan Smithee]

Probably the three most popular grappling arts (at least in my mind), what is it that each of these specialize in?

Why would someone want to pick one over the other, if all other factors (location, cost, pedigree of instruction, etc) are equal?

I know that BJJ has an emphasis on the ground game, but what do Judo and Wrestling do that BJJ doesn't? What do each of them do that the other doesn't?

Average time spent:

Judo: 80% (or more) stand up grappling, 20% ground game grappling.

BJJ: 80% (or more) training ground game grappling, 20% stand up grappling. BJJ schools also offer no GI, training. Judo does not

Kosen Judo: similiar to BJJ (but very rare style). Still only GI-training.

As far as grappling is concerned they have pretty much the same content. BJJ is derived from judo. It could have been called Brazilian Judo but it's a better marketing ploy to say Jiujitsu.....Makes it seem less rip-off-ish and more branching off the same tree type...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Average time spent:

Judo: 80% (or more) stand up grappling, 20% ground game grappling.

BJJ: 80% (or more) training ground game grappling, 20% stand up grappling. BJJ schools also offer no GI, training. Judo does not

Kosen Judo: similiar to BJJ (but very rare style). Still only GI-training.

As far as grappling is concerned they have pretty much the same content. BJJ is derived from judo. It could have been called Brazilian Judo but it's a better marketing ploy to say Jiujitsu.....Makes it seem less rip-off-ish and more branching off the same tree type...

You missed on a few points in your closing paragraph. BJJ now goes well beyond its Judo roots, in most schools. And the naming has a different origin than you seem to think.

 

[Hanzou]

Average time spent:

Judo: 80% (or more) stand up grappling, 20% ground game grappling.

BJJ: 80% (or more) training ground game grappling, 20% stand up grappling. BJJ schools also offer no GI, training. Judo does not

Kosen Judo: similiar to BJJ (but very rare style). Still only GI-training.

As far as grappling is concerned they have pretty much the same content. BJJ is derived from judo. It could have been called Brazilian Judo but it's a better marketing ploy to say Jiujitsu.....Makes it seem less rip-off-ish and more branching off the same tree type...

Brazilian Jiujitsu was called Jiujitsu because Judo in the early part of the 20th century (when it was introduced to the Gracie family) was also called Jiujitsu. Maeda left Japan in 1904 when Judo was also still known as Kano Jiu-jitsu;

The Judokai - Kano Jiu-Jitsu

I would also say that Judo and Bjj don't have the same content. For example, I don't think the Guard is commonly taught in Judo. Also Leg Locks and Wrist locks are banned completely in Judo, yet are taught in Bjj because they are legal in competition.

 

[Hanzou]

But Gracie school takedowns include judo throws. I just made a thread about it What are the other ones you think are Gracie type? "Bear hug" takedown?

Takedowns from the clinch that were designed to stuff a punching and kicking opponent.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Brazilian Jiujitsu was called Jiujitsu because Judo in the early part of the 20th century (when it was introduced to the Gracie family) was also called Jiujitsu. Maeda left Japan in 1904 when Judo was also still known as Kano Jiu-jitsu;

The Judokai - Kano Jiu-Jitsu

I would also say that Judo and Bjj don't have the same content. For example, I don't think the Guard is commonly taught in Judo. Also Leg Locks and Wrist locks are banned completely in Judo, yet are taught in Bjj because they are legal in competition.

Leg locks were also banned in BJJ originally. They are techniques part of Judo as well

 

[Alan Smithee]

You missed on a few points in your closing paragraph. BJJ now goes well beyond its Judo roots, in most schools. And the naming has a different origin than you seem to think.

It does not go "well beyond it's judo roots" There's a Judo style called Kosen Judo which does the same thing as BJJ, that is an emphasis on the ground game, just ever so slightly different.

 

[Hanzou]

Leg locks were also banned in BJJ originally. They are techniques part of Judo as well

Yes, in the Gracie line, they weren't banned in other lines of Bjj. The Gracies (particularly the Renzo line) had to adapt to them because they were increasingly being used in competition with devastating results. Further, the leg locks currently taught in BJJ were never a part of Judo. The set up and execution are completely different, and Judo's leg locks are pretty primitive in comparison. The entire art of leg locking has evolved significantly in the past 80+ years it's been banned in Judo.

In short, it is laughable to believe that leg locks that fell out of use in Judo almost a century ago are comparable to the constantly improved and evolving leg lock methods found in Bjj and submission grappling in general.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Yes, in the Gracie line, they weren't banned in other lines of Bjj. The Gracies (particularly the Renzo line) had to adapt to them because they were increasingly being used in competition with devastating results. Further, the leg locks currently taught in BJJ were never a part of Judo. The set up and execution are completely different, and Judo's leg locks are pretty primitive in comparison. The entire art of leg locking has evolved significantly in the past 80+ years it's been banned in Judo.

In short, it is laughable to believe that leg locks that fell out of use in Judo almost a century ago are comparable to the constantly improved and evolving leg lock methods found in Bjj and submission grappling in general.

I doubt they are completely different from Kosen Judo which allows leg locks..

 

[Hanzou]

I doubt they are completely different from Kosen Judo which allows leg locks..

There was no guard system within the kosen ruleset, so yes it is completely different. There are entire guards and set ups within BJJ and submission grappling that are completely based around leg locks.

 

[Alan Smithee]

There was no guard system within the kosen ruleset, so yes it is completely different. .

Why do you write past tense? I wrote "doubt they are completely different".

 

[Hanzou]

Why do you write past tense? I wrote "doubt they are completely different".

Because I'm talking about the original Kosen Judo that emerged in the early 20th century. Not the modern Kosen Judo that uses BJJ techniques and methods and is used by Judo instructors to lure gullible people into believing it's the progenitor of Bjj or some such silliness.

Actual Kosen Judo is just Judo that allows longer newaza. It still had no guard system, and since it followed general Kodokan rules, it banned leglocks from randori practice in the 1920s, just like the rest of Judo did.

 

[Alan Smithee]

Not the modern Kosen Judo that uses BJJ techniques and methods and is used by Judo instructors to lure gullible people into believing it's the progenitor of Bjj or some such silliness.
.

Haha. Do you have any support for that claim?

 

[Hanzou]

Haha. Do you have any support for that claim?

I've already supported it. If you're seeing "Kosen Judo" guys using the guard and BJJ transitions, they got it from BJJ, it isn't some lost Judo techniques. Kano himself neutered Kosen Judo in the 1920s because he looked down on newaza. Newaza was pretty much abandoned in Judo for decades because of it.

 

[Headhunter]

BJJ is ground fighting and teaches you self defence and teaches you how to get your opponent to submit

Judo is about throwing throwing your opponent the ground while bjj happens on the ground.

Wrestling is about taking taking complete control over the opponent to get him to pin and give up!

Wrong there are throws in bjj and there is ground work in judo

 

[Oily Dragon]

Bjj more focus on grappling and focus on ground fighting. Judo focuses more on throwing technique and not more focus on fighting on the ground. The goal in wrestling is to take your opponent down and pin them to the ground. The goal in Jiu-Jitsu is to submit your opponent, which you can do from both top and bottom position.

It depends on the school but most traditional Judo schools actually focus on the whole stream from standing grips to ground based submissions via armlock, choke, or just attrition.

The BJJ dudes and dudettes I know are all great no gi standing grapplers too.

Granted they have their differences but it's not this black and white.

And a lot of people cross train both (making me jealous) and the lines become even more blurred.

I consider the arts practically the same in terms of spirit, even though there's some variation in different people/lineages. That's normal, also in Kung Fu, FMA, even boxing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It depends on the school but most traditional Judo schools actually focus on the whole stream from standing grips to ground based submissions via armlock, choke, or just attrition.

The BJJ dudes and dudettes I know are all great no gi standing grapplers too.

Granted they have their differences but it's not this black and white.

And a lot of people cross train both (making me jealous) and the lines become even more blurred.

I consider the arts practically the same in terms of spirit, even though there's some variation in different people/lineages. That's normal, also in Kung Fu, FMA, even boxing.

My understanding is that many Judo schools have followed the trend from Judo competitions, which are much more restrictive regarding ground work. When I trained, we spent a good bit of time on ground work (even working some basic collegiate wrestling scenarios), but that seems to be less the case now, and might not have been the norm even then.