What do BJJ, Judo, and Wrestling specialize in?

[pdg]

Just because you're punching doesn't mean you're doing Boxing.

Yep, exactly.

Because in the same fashion - assigning a name doesn't make grabbing someone in a certain way proprietary, or a new invention.

I could say that BJJ was inspired by and developed from playground brawling - and provide plenty of prior art to prove it's true.

It's not directly true though, even though I can prove it...

 

[Hanzou]

Yep, exactly.

Because in the same fashion - assigning a name doesn't make grabbing someone in a certain way proprietary, or a new invention.

So what point are you trying to make here? That the Brazilians didn't create anything new with Bjj?

He didn't seem a very skilled boxer.

He was tentative in his movements, he appeared to make very little effort to control range, he left his punches hanging out for far too long (especially that cross, could've grown moss on that).

And being a boxer explains absolutely ignoring any other 'weapon' than the front of the fist.

He was also hampered by wearing boxing gloves.

I really hope you don't consider that a good example of striking.

Again, so what point are trying to make here? That Bjj is ineffective against skilled strikers? FYI, we have examples of the exact opposite situation.

 

[pdg]

So what point are you trying to make here? That the Brazilians didn't create anything new with Bjj?

They certainly created a system. Possibly a new way of looking at things and categorising techniques.

Nothing bad at all in doing that, and they seemed to do it well.

But new grappling? No. No more than boxing created a new way to punch someone in the face, or krav created a new way to kick someone in the nuts.

Again, so what point are trying to make here? That Bjj is ineffective against skilled strikers? FYI, we have examples of the exact opposite situation.

It's always all or nothing with you isn't it?

Always got to be in agreement or picking an argument...

As the skill of the striker increases, the skill of the BJJer has to also increase commensurately for it to remain effective. Coincidentally, the reverse is also true.

That's what I'm saying.

Posting videos like the one you did as "a solid example" looks a bit like you're trying too hard tbh - put me against a crap boxer and is it evidence that tkd is more effective than boxing? I'd say no, all it's evidence of is that it's possible to find a crap boxer.

 

[Hanzou]

They certainly created a system. Possibly a new way of looking at things and categorising techniques.

Nothing bad at all in doing that, and they seemed to do it well.

But new grappling? No. No more than boxing created a new way to punch someone in the face, or krav created a new way to kick someone in the nuts.

I would say that the Guard system they created was certainly a new form of grappling.

It's always all or nothing with you isn't it?

Always got to be in agreement or picking an argument...

As the skill of the striker increases, the skill of the BJJer has to also increase commensurately for it to remain effective. Coincidentally, the reverse is also true.

That's what I'm saying.

Posting videos like the one you did as "a solid example" looks a bit like you're trying too hard tbh - put me against a crap boxer and is it evidence that tkd is more effective than boxing? I'd say no, all it's evidence of is that it's possible to find a crap boxer.

Conversely since neither one of us know this guy's skill level, it could also be argued that the Bjj guy was so good that he made a skilled striker look like an amateur.

 

[pdg]

I would say that the Guard system they created was certainly a new form of grappling.

I don't know enough about that in particular to say anything either way.

Conversely since neither one of us know this guy's skill level, it could also be argued that the Bjj guy was so good that he made a skilled striker look like an amateur.

I do know enough about striking to confidently state that he was not an accomplished striker at the time of the video.

I don't need to know anything about the individual to be able to say that he was throwing bad punches.

 

[pdg]

I can do a more complete analysis of the striking part of you like?

 

[Hanzou]

I don't know enough about that in particular to say anything either way.

You should read up on it. Closed Guard, Open Guard, Half Guard, Butterfly Guard, etc. Bjj made fighting off your back a possible advantage. In other martial arts and sports, (including wrestling) the fight is over once your back hits the ground.

I do know enough about striking to confidently state that he was not an accomplished striker at the time of the video.

I don't need to know anything about the individual to be able to say that he was throwing bad punches.

Well to be fair, neither of those guys were professional. However, if an elite Bjj guy can hold his own or even stomp an elite striker (which has happened enough times to know that it isn't a fluke), then we know that Bjj does just fine against striking. Consider for example Floyd Mayweather, probably the best boxer on the planet. Everyone acknowledges that if he entered MMA he'd be toast, and he has actively avoided MMA fights and has forced his recent opponents to only boxing rules.

Why? Because they know that once he's taken down and has to deal with Bjj the fight is over.

 

[pdg]

You should read up on it. Closed Guard, Open Guard, Half Guard, Butterfly Guard, etc. Bjj made fighting off your back a possible advantage. In other martial arts and sports, (including wrestling) the fight is over once your back hits the ground.

I've intended to look into it a bit for a while, but as none of my MA practice is anything other than entertainment it's not a high priority.

Well to be fair, neither of those guys were professional. However, if an elite Bjj guy can hold his own or even stomp an elite striker (which has happened enough times to know that it isn't a fluke), then we know that Bjj does just fine against striking. Consider for example Floyd Mayweather, probably the best boxer on the planet. Everyone acknowledges that if he entered MMA he'd be toast, and he has actively avoided MMA fights and has forced his recent opponents to only boxing rules.

Why? Because they know that once he's taken down and has to deal with Bjj the fight is over.

I wasn't expecting or specifying a pro level - but competent would be a start...

That Mayweather example? Unfortunately it doesn't hold much weight with me.

It's no surprise he's not that great in MMA, and not simply due to BJJ. He's spent his life training and applying boxing - where he never has to consider 9/10 of what is in MMA upright, let alone on the ground.

Ok, he's a great boxer, he'd no doubt deal with me in seconds.

How many absolutely top flight (like comparatively equal to his level) muay thai fighters has he beaten? Any karate derivative? Anything that is as much full contact as boxing but without the very restrictive rules?

 

[Hanzou]

I've intended to look into it a bit for a while, but as none of my MA practice is anything other than entertainment it's not a high priority.

To each their own. I find the Guard to be fascinating from a MA perspective.

I wasn't expecting or specifying a pro level - but competent would be a start...

That Mayweather example? Unfortunately it doesn't hold much weight with me.

It's no surprise he's not that great in MMA, and not simply due to BJJ. He's spent his life training and applying boxing - where he never has to consider 9/10 of what is in MMA upright, let alone on the ground.

Ok, he's a great boxer, he'd no doubt deal with me in seconds.

How many absolutely top flight (like comparatively equal to his level) muay thai fighters has he beaten? Any karate derivative? Anything that is as much full contact as boxing but without the very restrictive rules?

Well now we're moving goalposts. We weren't talking about striking vs striking, we were talking about striking vs grappling. How he does versus other strikers is rather irrelevant to this conversation. The point is that Maywheather is a phenomenal striker, but he isn't entering a MMA fight because he would get obliterated by the grappling.

 

[pdg]

Well now we're moving goalposts. We weren't talking about striking vs striking, we were talking about striking vs grappling. How he does versus other strikers is rather irrelevant to this conversation. The point is that Maywheather is a phenomenal striker, but he isn't entering a MMA fight because he would get obliterated by the grappling.

Not really moving them and perfectly relevant imo.

You used him as an example of "a phenomenal striker" - but is he a fully equipped striker?

How is he with elbows, knees and feet? Can he use them or defend against them?

I'd argue that he's a phenomenal puncher - but there's more to striking than punching.

That being the case, it's not a great example to say that a puncher can't deal well with grappling.

 

[Hanzou]

Not really moving them and perfectly relevant imo.

You used him as an example of "a phenomenal striker" - but is he a fully equipped striker?

How is he with elbows, knees and feet? Can he use them or defend against them?

I'd argue that he's a phenomenal puncher - but there's more to striking than punching.

That being the case, it's not a great example to say that a puncher can't deal well with grappling.

So now Boxers aren't considered effective strikers in your opinion? Mayweather isn't an elite striker in your opinion?

Keep in mind that this entire conversation started because you were criticizing a person's boxing skills. Now the best boxer on the planet is still inadequate for you. That's a textbook example of moving goalposts in an argument.

With that said, the situation with Mayweather applies to other strikers as well. No one enters the octagon without grappling experience. Further, there's been multiple cases where superior strikers were beaten by superior grapplers. Vice versa has also occurred of course, but Mayweather purposely avoiding MMA fights in these crazy exhibition contests is a prime example of what we're talking about.

 

[TMA17]

Yeah Mayweather clearly would never enter the octagon without knowing any grappling. It’s a must for anyone who enters it.

At the very bottom of the pyramid is grappling and striking then it splinters off into different striking grappling arts.

 

[pdg]

So now Boxers aren't considered effective strikers in your opinion? Mayweather isn't an elite striker in your opinion?

They are effective within context.

Mayweather is elite in that context.

There is no evidence that he's particularly elite amongst the wider category of "striker" though.

Therefore, using him (or any boxer) as an example in a "striking Vs grappling" argument is introducing a handicap against the strikers.

But maybe that's the point?

Keep in mind that this entire conversation started because you were criticizing a person's boxing skills. Now the best boxer on the planet is still inadequate for you. That's a textbook example of moving goalposts in an argument.

I didn't find out he was a boxer until after I criticised his overall skill as a striker.

As I said before, discovering he was "a boxer" only explained why he concentrated solely on the front of his fists.

Being a boxer is certainly no reason for a poor show though.

Thing is, boxing has one of the most restrictive sport rulesets available, and pretty much everyone who trains boxing never trains outside of those rules. It's no surprise that when confronted with someone who is good outside of those rules the boxer isn't comfortable.

With that said, the situation with Mayweather applies to other strikers as well. No one enters the octagon without grappling experience. Further, there's been multiple cases where superior strikers were beaten by superior grapplers. Vice versa has also occurred of course, but Mayweather purposely avoiding MMA fights in these crazy exhibition contests is a prime example of what we're talking about.

Of course 'nobody' enters the octagon without grappling knowledge - it's a contest that relies heavily on grappling.

It'd be like entering a boxing match as a wrestler who can't punch.

That said, there are more than a couple of videos showing people being rejected because they can't or won't grapple.

The jury is out as to whether that's because grappling is so much better, or whether the grappling element is what sells tickets...





A while back I did find a few videos where grapplers absolutely got their asses handed to them by strikers - but I won't be trying to find them again, or post them.

Because they contained pretty competent strikers, and pretty crap grapplers. Even I could tell they were crap.

Just like the vid you posted, it was an unbalanced contest - it's just that I won't even attempt to use it as any sort of evidence.

 

[Hanzou]

They are effective within context.

Mayweather is elite in that context.

There is no evidence that he's particularly elite amongst the wider category of "striker" though.

Therefore, using him (or any boxer) as an example in a "striking Vs grappling" argument is introducing a handicap against the strikers.

But maybe that's the point?

I would consider an undefeated professional boxer an elite striker in any context. Just like I would consider an Olympic Judoka or a Bjj world champion an elite grappler. I don't think I'm alone in that consideration.

I didn't find out he was a boxer until after I criticised his overall skill as a striker.

As I said before, discovering he was "a boxer" only explained why he concentrated solely on the front of his fists.

Being a boxer is certainly no reason for a poor show though.

Thing is, boxing has one of the most restrictive sport rulesets available, and pretty much everyone who trains boxing never trains outside of those rules. It's no surprise that when confronted with someone who is good outside of those rules the boxer isn't comfortable.

Here's the thing though; While the rules are restrictive, what they're allowed to do has very wide applications. Which is why many people recommend boxing for general self defense, despite it only teaching you footwork, endurance, and a couple of punches. Colin McGregor operates under a ruleset that allows punches, kicks, elbows, and a myriad of other strikes, but I guarantee you that he wouldn't stay standing with Mayweather, he'd take him to the ground as soon as possible. Pro-level Boxers on their feet punching at you are far too dangerous.

Of course 'nobody' enters the octagon without grappling knowledge - it's a contest that relies heavily on grappling.

So now we're back to the classic "MMA favors grapplers" eh?

It'd be like entering a boxing match as a wrestler who can't punch.

Yeah, that analogy doesn't make sense. How is a boxer restricted by MMA rules like a wrestler would be restricted by boxing rules?

A while back I did find a few videos where grapplers absolutely got their asses handed to them by strikers - but I won't be trying to find them again, or post them.

Because they contained pretty competent strikers, and pretty crap grapplers. Even I could tell they were crap.

Just like the vid you posted, it was an unbalanced contest - it's just that I won't even attempt to use it as any sort of evidence.

Okay.

 

[pdg]

Yeah, that analogy doesn't make sense. How is a boxer restricted by MMA rules like a wrestler would be restricted by boxing rules?

You read it backwards...

 

[Hanzou]

Here's a very cool article about Catch Wrestling and its similarities and differences to BJJ:

Catch Wrestling Vs Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Which Is Better?

 

[TMA17]

That was good.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here's a very cool article about Catch Wrestling and its similarities and differences to BJJ:

Catch Wrestling Vs Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: Which Is Better?

Thanks for posting that. I’m largely unfamiliar with CACC, but where these guys describe te different philosophy about being on the back, the Catch philosophy seems closer to my own approach and preference.

 

[Hanzou]

Thanks for posting that. I’m largely unfamiliar with CACC, but where these guys describe te different philosophy about being on the back, the Catch philosophy seems closer to my own approach and preference.

I like their approach to guard escapes and submissions from inferior positions. The great thing is that everything they do is legit in Bjj so you can learn some catch stuff and use it in Bjj rolling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I like their approach to guard escapes and submissions from inferior positions. The great thing is that everything they do is legit in Bjj so you can learn some catch stuff and use it in Bjj rolling.

I’ll have to put catch on my wish list.