What conidtions was TKD made in?

[Deleted member 39746]

I think you can take it a bit far to be honest, I think there maybe some differences from climate/ terrain, certainly jungle fighting is different from desert fighting,

Maybe i do take it too far. I might have put too much emphasis on terrain but i was citing examples from the book. Also i got one wrong, it was farmland, where they had thin singular paths which got muddy hence the need for them to be linear so they didnt slip over and they had no way to flank etc, it was more the combination of elements than one thing.

Some details are overlooked which can result in harm of yourself. You are after all being taught how to fight in your environment not anyone else's. Point examples, kicking when its muddy puts your balance at risk, or maybe you don't have shoes with a good grip for mud if you have shoes at all? So you will adjust to not kick often in a muddy environment. And one for cold weather, insulated clothing provides padding and restricted movement, which means you will get used to having some protection and fighting people with some protection and the same restrictions as yourself. a weapon seems fitting for this condition. One for hot weather, you don't want move as much to prevent sweating and overheating so you will probably want to rely on weapons more and conservative movements, in a desert environment sand can be hard to fight on if you are dismounted so kicks would be restricted and fighting while mounted on a horse of camel will probably fit.

Please tell me if i missed the point, i have a habit of that.

Oh and just because a Japanese Art has "Jutsu" on it doesn't necessarily mean it is Koryu

Excuse the language thing, it was a rule i was told but it doesn't mean their arent exceptions and it was more directed at traditional Japanese styles anyway. I have also done minor research but what i can do is limited.

As said before some of the claims made are not always true

that's for certain, no one is infallible.



back onto the book a killing art, should i get the new edition or old? I dont know the differences between the two and if its significant. (cant edit my old post)

 

[now disabled]

Maybe i do take it too far. I might have put too much emphasis on terrain but i was citing examples from the book. Also i got one wrong, it was farmland, where they had thin singular paths which got muddy hence the need for them to be linear so they didnt slip over and they had no way to flank etc, it was more the combination of elements than one thing.

Some details are overlooked which can result in harm of yourself. You are after all being taught how to fight in your environment not anyone else's. Point examples, kicking when its muddy puts your balance at risk, or maybe you don't have shoes with a good grip for mud if you have shoes at all? So you will adjust to not kick often in a muddy environment. And one for cold weather, insulated clothing provides padding and restricted movement, which means you will get used to having some protection and fighting people with some protection and the same restrictions as yourself. a weapon seems fitting for this condition. One for hot weather, you don't want move as much to prevent sweating and overheating so you will probably want to rely on weapons more and conservative movements, in a desert environment sand can be hard to fight on if you are dismounted so kicks would be restricted and fighting while mounted on a horse of camel will probably fit.

Please tell me if i missed the point, i have a habit of that.



Excuse the language thing, it was a rule i was told but it doesn't mean their arent exceptions and it was more directed at traditional Japanese styles anyway. I have also done minor research but what i can do is limited.




that's for certain, no one is infallible.



back onto the book a killing art, should i get the new edition or old? I dont know the differences between the two and if its significant. (cant edit my old post)

Your definitely enthusiastic and seem hungry for knowledge

Put that effort into training and studying at your school and you will be starting on the right path.

As for the terrain thing I don't know what book you were reading or indeed if the author was talking about "modern times" or if he was going back in time just bear in mind that if it back in time then yes "professional warriors" just like the professional soldiers of today had to train and prepare for different environments. don't get to hung up on that side be aware and look into it but first get the basics and study at a school and go from there

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Your definitely enthusiastic and seem hungry for knowledge

Put that effort into training and studying at your school and you will be starting on the right path.

As for the terrain thing I don't know what book you were reading or indeed if the author was talking about "modern times" or if he was going back in time just bear in mind that if it back in time then yes "professional warriors" just like the professional soldiers of today had to train and prepare for different environments. don't get to hung up on that side be aware and look into it but first get the basics and study at a school and go from there

I will always remain skeptical of what the over arching organizations say their history is. what doesn't help is i dont think there is many primary sources for Korean martial history.


the book in question was is "Eskrima, filipino martial art" by Krishna Godhania, its a overarching book meant to introduce you to the arnis. the terrain segment was a paragraph or two at best more as passing glance over on some of the predominate terrain of the Philippines and how it might effect what priorities they have when fighting/teaching people to fight. Trying not to butcher the point of the section.

 

[now disabled]

I will always remain skeptical of what the over arching organizations say their history is. what doesn't help is i dont think there is many primary sources for Korean martial history.


the book in question was is "Eskrima, filipino martial art" by Krishna Godhania, its a overarching book meant to introduce you to the arnis. the terrain segment was a paragraph or two at best more as passing glance over on some of the predominate terrain of the Philippines and how it might effect what priorities they have when fighting/teaching people to fight. Trying not to butcher the point of the section.

You might want to blame the Japanese and before them the Chinese for that fact the sources are few. Mind you there might be sources they just not in English

 

[Deleted member 39746]

You might want to blame the Japanese and before them the Chinese for that fact the sources are few. Mind you there might be sources they just not in English

i blame all of them for not keeping copies of these things. Yeah of the few sources they would be in a language i dont know and for all purposes i dont plan on trying to learn Korean or any dialect of Chinese anytime soon. Translators interpretation exists as well.

 

[now disabled]

i blame all of them for not keeping copies of these things. Yeah of the few sources they would be in a language i dont know and for all purposes i dont plan on trying to learn Korean or any dialect of Chinese anytime soon. Translators interpretation exists as well.

Rat I could spend a long time and many hours telling you that not all translations are accurate and even two translations of the same text can be different and boy can that start some serious fights lol so just be aware that translations are umm translations

 

[punisher73]

When TKD formed, the transition in Japan to the "-do" arts had already begun. I would say that it was just a natural progression for them to use the same usage.

As for "combat" versus "sport" it depends on a couple things. School to school and different organizations. For the most part, WTF is based on the sport of TKD and that is its main emphasis in their training. ITF focuses more on the "martial" side of things, but has that crazy "sine wave" over exaggeration that it does now. Other styles like Moo Duk Kwan/Tang Soo Do seem to place more emphasis on their karate roots and kept the old style katas like the Pinans, Naihanchi etc. Also, used to be the name(s) for what is now known as TKD.

But, there is alot of re-writing history in many cases to remove certain people or influences. For example, Tang Soo Do claims that it is a chinese style and renamed the Pinans with animals associated with the forms in some lineage claims.

 

[Earl Weiss]

back onto the book a killing art, should i get the new edition or old? I dont know the differences between the two and if its significant. (cant edit my old post)

I haven't seen the new one. However I do know that I and others provided the author with feedback after reading the 1st edition and he may have revised and added material based on information provided. So, the new one might have corrected some issues and provided more info.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Funnily enough, the first ones bookmarked and was on my gift list once. I .

Available on Amazon "Taekwon-Do and I" about $120.00. Where are you located? I may have some extra sets. Bought a few when it came out.

 

[oftheherd1]

Funnily enough, the first ones bookmarked and was on my gift list once. I might see if i can order it now actually pending how much money i have. As for the second one, is that going to be easy to find? Because for the encyclopedia of TKD made by Choi i just found a PDF.

If someone can correct me if i am wrong, doesn't the south Korean army use TKD as a form of discipline rather than actual combative instruction now days? In addition to this, does anyone else find it slightly amusing they call it a military style and have do in their name? When "do" usually denotes self betterment rather than combative skill. (at least that's Japanese)


Also this thread is turning out quite nice, keep up the responses and discussion. I do have another question, is there any word to refer to the type of TKD which focused more on combat than sport/self betterment, or is it just cited as early/combative? Im used to the Japanese styles of where there is a do style there is a jitsu it was based off, or would that be the Kwans?




In addition I feel like i should add more context if some people find it confusing, i picked this up in a book on arnis i got. He cited the different terrain making each school/peoples emphasize teaching different things, like the ones who live in the flat lands would fight with staffs, the ones who live in the over grown areas will use mainly thrusts, the ones around a muddy area would be very linear etc. In addition to that the people of the Philippines were used to being armed and adapted when people forced them to give them up hence why its weapons based.He also viewed it as important to look at terrain etc as to why people fight like they do.

Can you explain what you mean by a form of discipline? Also, how far back do you take "now days?"

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Can you explain what you mean by a form of discipline? Also, how far back do you take "now days?"

Its used like drill is per say, they more use the forms in it to disipline you than to actually teach you to fight and i would presume 60's-70's? Im not that knowledgeable of the south korean military training.

vailable on Amazon "Taekwon-Do and I"

I will look into it.

 

[skribs]

Some details are overlooked which can result in harm of yourself. You are after all being taught how to fight in your environment not anyone else's. Point examples, kicking when its muddy puts your balance at risk, or maybe you don't have shoes with a good grip for mud if you have shoes at all? So you will adjust to not kick often in a muddy environment. And one for cold weather, insulated clothing provides padding and restricted movement, which means you will get used to having some protection and fighting people with some protection and the same restrictions as yourself. a weapon seems fitting for this condition. One for hot weather, you don't want move as much to prevent sweating and overheating so you will probably want to rely on weapons more and conservative movements, in a desert environment sand can be hard to fight on if you are dismounted so kicks would be restricted and fighting while mounted on a horse of camel will probably fit.

It's going to be a lot better than trying to do the kicks in mud if you have no training at all.

 

[now disabled]

Its used like drill is per say, they more use the forms in it to disipline you than to actually teach you to fight and i would presume 60's-70's? Im not that knowledgeable of the south korean military training.




I will look into it.

I doubt that the military in either Korea need to use TKD to teach discipline and if your referring to foot drill in the military yes it does teach discipline, but the discipline it teaches is really how to move together as a unit, there is no deep meaning to being on a parade square although it is a pain in the behind lol.

The military have many more "creative ways" of teaching discipline lol

 

[WaterGal]

If someone can correct me if i am wrong, doesn't the south Korean army use TKD as a form of discipline rather than actual combative instruction now days? In addition to this, does anyone else find it slightly amusing they call it a military style and have do in their name? When "do" usually denotes self betterment rather than combative skill. (at least that's Japanese)

The South Korean special forces has it's own military combatives program that's more, erm, killing-based I guess, called "Taegong Musul". This style uses "musul" ("martial techniques") in the name instead of "do", for I think just that reason.

I think the emphasis on TKD is more about, like you say, discipline, and general fitness training, etc. Mr WaterGal went to the Kukkiwon Master Instructor Course last year when it was being held in Denver, and they had a general from the Korean army teach a class on a more combatives-style self-defense curriculum that he's been developing for them. I don't know if there's been any progress on that, but that's something that's been in the works.

 

[Tez3]

A dude once told me TKD was developed and used to kick soldiers off horses. No joke!

That's usually the 'origin' of the so called flying sidekick, oh and nunchukus were originally used as a horses bridle ( as well as rice flails, obviously a versatile tool!)

 

[oftheherd1]

Its used like drill is per say, they more use the forms in it to disipline you than to actually teach you to fight and i would presume 60's-70's? Im not that knowledgeable of the south korean military training.

...

If you are talking about mental discipline, most martial arts I think, attempt to teach that. But afik, Korean military absolutely teach martial arts to teach military personnel how to fight. I haven't been around any Korean military personnel in about 30 years, but from looking at Korean TV with my wife, it seems they still teach military how to fight. Both TKD and HKD are popular arts, with TKD probably being the most popular since most Koreans will have studied that for at least a while in school.

 

[skribs]

The South Korean special forces has it's own military combatives program that's more, erm, killing-based I guess, called "Taegong Musul". This style uses "musul" ("martial techniques") in the name instead of "do", for I think just that reason.

I think the emphasis on TKD is more about, like you say, discipline, and general fitness training, etc. Mr WaterGal went to the Kukkiwon Master Instructor Course last year when it was being held in Denver, and they had a general from the Korean army teach a class on a more combatives-style self-defense curriculum that he's been developing for them. I don't know if there's been any progress on that, but that's something that's been in the works.

My Master was an instructor in Taegong. He says his experience from there is why he uses the curriculum he uses, as opposed to one that's more up-to-date with the newest forms from Kukkiwon.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Many military MA instructors will concede that empty hand MA training in the military is for mental toughness and esprit de corps. For combat they give you stuff like guns and knives. I think it was some US Navy Seal who was asked to comment on the empty hand training and his comment was something to the effect that if you need to engage in empty hand combat things have gone horribly wrong.

 

[Earl Weiss]

You might want to blame the Japanese and before them the Chinese for that fact the sources are few. Mind you there might be sources they just not in English

You might want to checkout "Bubishi, Bible of Karate." it is a translation of an old text which really has to do with the Chinese origins.

 

[now disabled]

You might want to checkout "Bubishi, Bible of Karate." it is a translation of an old text which really has to do with the Chinese origins.

Thanks

What I was trying to say was that translations are just that translations and it depends on the translator how good they are and also if they got the context right.

I am not knocking anyone just stating a fact no more.