sport TKD

[ATACX GYM]

If you come from a kenpo/TKD root, how is it that you teach karate?

I can't answer for Thesemindz,but imo Kenpo and TKD aren't really that different in techs...their difference lies in training philosophy which results in a different emphasis on certain techs. The superficial book on these arts goes like this: lightning hand skills? Kenpo. Lightning kicking skill? TKD. Put them together? You get a lightning storm in every range of striking.So it makes sense to start with a Kenpo-TKD hybrid or a Kenpo-TKD-Muay Thai hybrid and work from there to many people. I'm a MT instructor too,and I see maaaany benefits from blending and upgrading these 3 systems...they synergistically enhance the results of each other. I also hold a black belt in Judo and a blue in bjj,and I'm a wrestler and I'm certified in firearms,do lotsa stick and knife fighting,train in iaido (seitei-iaido) and other stuff.

 

[mastercole]

To me there is just Taekwondo. I do not see a divide between sport or martial art. Gen. Choi pushed that propaganda to support his agenda and I think those that repeat it have knowingly or unknowingly bought into that propaganda.

I see that a small percentage of students are interested in competition. The mass majority have no interest in attending tournaments. So Taekwondo is not turning into some exclusive tournament activity, actually today, it is moving further away from tournaments and becoming a family activity.

 

[mastercole]

I hear ya Manny. I come from a kenpo/TKD root myself. I don't teach sport at all, except as a training drill for real combat. Sports are fine for people that want to play them, sometimes I do myself, but we teach fighting karate, not sport karate.

Different strokes. But I hear what you're saying.


-Rob

I don't think being a martial arts teacher, hard core on not, qualifies anyone to teach combat/fighting/SD. I think instructors who preach SD a lot are living in a fantasy world and are more likely to get their students hurt, or killed. Also, being in shape, or being fit does not give a person a great advantage in self defense and convincing a student of this can give a false sense of confidence, or over confidence and get them hurt, or killed. These days self defense is psychological and strategic as much as it is physical, more so I'd say. If you really want to be a combat/fighting expert, join one of these groups:

crips, bloods, ms-13, black gorilla family, aryan brotherhood, latin kings, triads, etc.

These members get lots of real life combat/fighting experience. Other than that, if really you feel in danger, get a conceal carry permit, learn to use a gun, be prepared to use it in SD and carry it.

 

[Thesemindz]

If you come from a kenpo/TKD root, how is it that you teach karate?

I was using the word "karate" as a general term for martial arts.


-Rob

 

[Thesemindz]

I don't think being a martial arts teacher, hard core on not, qualifies anyone to teach combat/fighting/SD. I think instructors who preach SD a lot are living in a fantasy world and are more likely to get their students hurt, or killed. Also, being in shape, or being fit does not give a person a great advantage in self defense and convincing a student of this can give a false sense of confidence, or over confidence and get them hurt, or killed. These days self defense is psychological and strategic as much as it is physical, more so I'd say. If you really want to be a combat/fighting expert, join one of these groups:

crips, bloods, ms-13, black gorilla family, aryan brotherhood, latin kings, triads, etc.

These members get lots of real life combat/fighting experience. Other than that, if really you feel in danger, get a conceal carry permit, learn to use a gun, be prepared to use it in SD and carry it.

That's all probably very true about bad instructors. However, when I say we teach self defense, I mean that we discuss issues relating to self defense situations including environmental awareness, ambush defense, legalities of self defense, how to survive a violent assault, and techniques specifically related to self defense situations. Then we do spontaneous self defense drills specifically designed to build structured reactions to common assaults. When I say we teach self defense, I mean that we have security professionals and legal professionals come to our school and talk to our students about self defense. I mean that we take actual, real world assaults, and explore them in the classroom. I mean that we spend a significant portion of our time discussing how our techniques apply to dynamic combat scenarios and practicing them in that context. That's what I mean when I say we teach self defense.

When I say we teach fighting, I mean that we fight in class. Standing, prone, both. We practice kicking and striking and grappling each other. We fight with our techniques, we fight with weapons, we fight with rules and specific targets and controlled techniques, and we fight without any dictated rules or targets or techniques. We fight to make sure our techniques work in a fight. That's what I mean when I say we teach fighting.

No doubt, many martial arts instructors are bad at what they do. But not all martial arts instructors are in fantasy land when they discuss fighting and self defense. I'm not delusional about what I teach. I teach my students that self defense is "stun and run," and that the only rule is survive. Get home to see your family one more time. Of course getting a gun is a cheaper, faster method of gaining the ability to defend yourself. But you still have to train in how to use that as well. Just having the permit and the tool doesn't automatically make you safe.



-Rob

 

[mastercole]

That's all probably very true about bad instructors. However, when I say we teach self defense, I mean that we discuss issues relating to self defense situations including environmental awareness, ambush defense, legalities of self defense, how to survive a violent assault, and techniques specifically related to self defense situations. Then we do spontaneous self defense drills specifically designed to build structured reactions to common assaults. When I say we teach self defense, I mean that we have security professionals and legal professionals come to our school and talk to our students about self defense. I mean that we take actual, real world assaults, and explore them in the classroom. I mean that we spend a significant portion of our time discussing how our techniques apply to dynamic combat scenarios and practicing them in that context. That's what I mean when I say we teach self defense.

When I say we teach fighting, I mean that we fight in class. Standing, prone, both. We practice kicking and striking and grappling each other. We fight with our techniques, we fight with weapons, we fight with rules and specific targets and controlled techniques, and we fight without any dictated rules or targets or techniques. We fight to make sure our techniques work in a fight. That's what I mean when I say we teach fighting.

No doubt, many martial arts instructors are bad at what they do. But not all martial arts instructors are in fantasy land when they discuss fighting and self defense. I'm not delusional about what I teach. I teach my students that self defense is "stun and run," and that the only rule is survive. Get home to see your family one more time. Of course getting a gun is a cheaper, faster method of gaining the ability to defend yourself. But you still have to train in how to use that as well. Just having the permit and the tool doesn't automatically make you safe.

-Rob

Does all that work against assassin/killer types?

 

[Thesemindz]

Does all that work against assassin/killer types?

Yes.


-Rob

 

[puunui]

To me there is just Taekwondo. I do not see a divide between sport or martial art. Gen. Choi pushed that propaganda to support his agenda and I think those that repeat it have knowingly or unknowingly bought into that propaganda.

General Choi pushed the difference, but only after his efforts to secure IOC International Federation status for the ITF failed.

 

[puunui]

I see that a small percentage of students are interested in competition. The mass majority have no interest in attending tournaments. So Taekwondo is not turning into some exclusive tournament activity, actually today, it is moving further away from tournaments and becoming a family activity.

A small percentage of students are interested in competition, but I also think that a small percentage of students are interested in self defense as well. It is definitely not a "sport or self defense" dynamic. The vast majority of students come to dojangs for reasons other than these two things, if you focus on either of these two things, then you will miss the biggest markets, which are 1) children, followed by 2) parents of children.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

We get people to fill in a questionaire when they first start. We ask "why are you starting tkd?". The number 1 response is fitness, closely followed by self defence. Then there are a heap of other reasons which all come in well below the top 2.

 

[mastercole]

A small percentage of students are interested in competition, but I also think that a small percentage of students are interested in self defense as well. It is definitely not a "sport or self defense" dynamic. The vast majority of students come to dojangs for reasons other than these two things, if you focus on either of these two things, then you will miss the biggest markets, which are 1) children, followed by 2) parents of children.

This is true. It's rare now that anyone checks off the self defense box on our membership application. No one joins asking for tournaments either.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

This is true. It's rare now that anyone checks off the self defense box on our membership application. No one joins asking for tournaments either.

No one ever ticks tournaments on ours either. But really, if you dont want self defence then why even train in martial arts. From an exercise perspective they would be heaps better off taking up aerobics or some other form of exercise. Each to their own I guess.

 

[andyjeffries]

This is true. It's rare now that anyone checks off the self defense box on our membership application. No one joins asking for tournaments either.

This is a good idea I hadn't thought of...

Out of interest, would you mind sharing the top 3 reasons people join your club (along with percentages, if you don't want to reveal numbers)?

 

[mastercole]

This is a good idea I hadn't thought of...

Out of interest, would you mind sharing the top 3 reasons people join your club (along with percentages, if you don't want to reveal numbers)?

Family class is #1, then confidence and maybe self control

 

[Manny]

To me, reason #1 is enough of a reason to continue practicing self defense techniques. Part of the path of the martial arts is tailoring the art to your own desires, wants and personality. But usually it does not stop there. People for some reason feel the need to justify their position and say this or that is wrong, that I focus on this and this is the true way. Or I cannot do something so it isn't important or not really a part of our art. I personally am interested in everything connected with Taekwondo so I don't really make those sorts of distinctions. But I recognize that other people do. If you want to do Taekwondo only for self defense, then do that. At the same token, if others want to do Taekwondo purely for competition purposes, then that should be ok too, just like it should be ok for the overweight couch potato 7 year old with a nintendo control thing glued to his hands to do Taekwondo for exercise or social purposes. Taekwondo is big enough and broad enough to encompass everyone. It was designed to be an inclusive art by the pioneers, where everyone has a place, no matter what that the reasons for being involved.

Puunui, thanx a lot, this is one of the times that we are fully agree.

Manny

 

[StudentCarl]

From an exercise perspective they would be heaps better off taking up aerobics or some other form of exercise.

Not IMO. Our classes are plenty aerobic and do more to develop balance, flexibility, coordination, and efficient body mechanics than other forms of exercise, and ours is a progressive curriculum with discipline and a positive culture. You don't get that playing soccer or basketball, and you won't see it in the weight room.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't think being a martial arts teacher, hard core on not, qualifies anyone to teach combat/fighting/SD. I think instructors who preach SD a lot are living in a fantasy world and are more likely to get their students hurt, or killed.

With respect, what are you basing this on? Who would you say is qualified to teach SD?

Also, being in shape, or being fit does not give a person a great advantage in self defense and convincing a student of this can give a false sense of confidence, or over confidence and get them hurt, or killed.

Again, with respect, this is incorrect. Being in good physical shape helps a person better navigate the O.O.D.A loop, deal with adrenaline dumps (tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, loss of manual dexterity in the extremities etc), better use gross motor skills and above all....think clearer under duress. L.E. has known and trained this for years which is why physical conditioning is a big part of initial training. Unfortunately, after the academy many recruits go back to bad habits.

Being in shape also lends to positive confidence, which can lead to enhanced command presence which is a body cue a potential BG can pick up on.

 

[Thesemindz]

Not to mention the fact that physical fitness has a direct impact on your ability to succeed in any violent confrontation. It's no mistake that elite level professional fighters maintain themselves in peak physical condition. The better shape you are in, the longer and stronger you can fight. Period. Better is always better. That doesn't mean you can't defend yourself if you are fat and weak. But you will be more able to defend yourself if you are fit and strong. Partly because villains will be less likely to attack you.


-Rob

 

[mastercole]

With respect, what are you basing this on? Who would you say is qualified to teach SD?

1. a street kid, who lived among street gangs and thugs, fought for their life and survived to become a street wise adult, nothing to do with a martial art at all.

2. even then, I don't think anyone can teach self defense, I think they can just introduce you to the psychology of self defense, maybe a few techniques, but that's it.

3. this street kid, if taught GOOD martial arts would enhance their self defense capability, but martial arts alone won't do much, unfortunately.

Again, with respect, this is incorrect. Being in good physical shape helps a person better navigate the O.O.D.A loop, deal with adrenaline dumps (tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, loss of manual dexterity in the extremities etc), better use gross motor skills and above all....think clearer under duress. L.E. has known and trained this for years which is why physical conditioning is a big part of initial training. Unfortunately, after the academy many recruits go back to bad habits.

I am familiar with the O.O.D.A. loop, it's very interesting and well done I believe. But I don't fully agree "rules" being based around it. There are always exceptions, but for the most part, I agree with it, because I lived it, before the concept was coined.

Agreed, a healthy and fit "normal" person would have an advantage in SD if they are fit, but being fit is secondary, maybe third place.

When I think of SD, I think of where I grew up, Cleveland's Little Italy. We had, and have, big fat out of shape guys who grew up in a culture of violence. These guys are pro's at turning a decision into violent action in the blink of an eye, and they are some of the most feared guys in the City. They are the best psychological warriors I have ever met.

Puunui might have a similar experience with the Samoan culture of Hawaii?

One guy, who used to be the biggest, fattest guy in the neighborhood, I'll call him "Johnny Rocks", when he fought someone, he would find a big stone, a curb or a brick wall and start banging the guys head on it until he was out, hence, the "Rocks" part of his name. Now I was a pretty good street fighter, and Johnny was my friend, but I alway thought if I had to fight Johnny, I was going to have to just shoot him, I was pretty sure that it would be my head being banged on a rock. But I don't have to worry about that now, some years back they found Johnny at the bottom of a water filled rock quarry, missing head, hands and feet.

In the early part of this video, you can see the police in diving suits pulling Johnny's torso out of that quarry.

This video also talks about my neighborhood and the friends I grew up with.

Being in shape also lends to positive confidence, which can lead to enhanced command presence which is a body cue a potential BG can pick up on.

Maybe, depends on what kind of bad guy.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

1. a street kid, who lived among street gangs and thugs, fought for their life and survived to become a street wise adult, nothing to do with a martial art at all.

2. even then, I don't think anyone can teach self defense, I think they can just introduce you to the psychology of self defense, maybe a few techniques, but that's it.

3. this street kid, if taught GOOD martial arts would enhance their self defense capability, but martial arts alone won't do much, unfortunately.



I am familiar with the O.O.D.A. loop, it's very interesting and well done I believe. But I don't fully agree "rules" being based around it. There are always exceptions, but for the most part, I agree with it, because I lived it, before the concept was coined.

Agreed, a healthy and fit "normal" person would have an advantage in SD if they are fit, but being fit is secondary, maybe third place.

When I think of SD, I think of where I grew up, Cleveland's Little Italy. We had, and have, big fat out of shape guys who grew up in a culture of violence. These guys are pro's at turning a decision into violent action in the blink of an eye, and they are some of the most feared guys in the City. They are the best psychological warriors I have ever met.

Puunui might have a similar experience with the Samoan culture of Hawaii?

One guy, who used to be the biggest, fattest guy in the neighborhood, I'll call him "Johnny Rocks", when he fought someone, he would find a big stone, a curb or a brick wall and start banging the guys head on it until he was out, hence, the "Rocks" part of his name. Now I was a pretty good street fighter, and Johnny was my friend, but I alway thought if I had to fight Johnny, I was going to have to just shoot him, I was pretty sure that it would be my head being banged on a rock. But I don't have to worry about that now, some years back they found Johnny at the bottom of a water filled rock quarry, missing head, hands and feet.

In the early part of this video, you can see the police in diving suits pulling Johnny's torso out of that quarry.

This video also talks about my neighborhood and the friends I grew up with.



Maybe, depends on what kind of bad guy.

I had a mate some time back who couldnt fight to save himself, any fight he got into he lost, many were not his fault as his job had him in some bad areas at the wrong times and he was mugged more than once. He took up martial arts and trained his *** off and a couple of years later someone attempted to mug him. The mugger made a big mistake and ended up being on the wrong side of the altercation. In this case what my mate had learned helped him to "defend himself", and therefore I would say that, to a degree, he had learned some "self defence". So if the owner of the dojang he trained at claimed to teach some self defence then I personally wouldnt have a problem with that because I know that without his MA training it would have just been another successful mugging. I understand where you are coming from when you say you cant claim to teach self defence but I dont think its that black and white.