Tae Kwon Do a Korean art really!!

[puunui]

I think what differentiates Taekwondo and other Korean martial arts is the infusion of Korean culture and values into the art. Taekwondo and Hapkido are different in the sense that they came from completely different art bases (Karate for Taekwondo and Daito Ryu for Hapkido) but there are many similarities. These similarities go beyond just kick orientedness (which is a reflection of Korean culture, 2000 year old stone statues not withstanding).

I think that when you take away the Korean culture aspects of the art, then the art changes into something else. In another discussion, we heard what happened to Kenyan Taekwondo when non-Korean took over from their Korean born pioneers.

We also see it in Taekwondo at USAT, where a lot of the korean culture (which includes such things as respect for seniors) get thrown out the window. the influsion of western culture, more than anything else, and western attitudes towards sport is changing Taekwondo, not "sport" in and of itself.

Watch a basketball game and inevitably you will see coaches and players arguing with referees over calls. We look at that and say "see, that is a sport attitude". But if you go to Japan, and watch a kendo match, no one argues with the referees, at least not in the same fashion. What is the difference? In the US, we are taught to rebel and speak up when we feel something was wrong, whether we are right or not. In Japan, or other asian countries, not so much.

So sport is not changing Taekwondo, western culture is. This is occurring is Korea as well, where the biggest concern from the older generation is the westernization of their country and people.

My suggestion: If you wish to keep Taekwondo traditional, then keep the Korean cultural aspects in there. Don't blame "sport", because it goes deeper than that.

 

[Lord-Humongous]

Who are the two brothers who developed Tang Soo Do and Taekwondo?

Tae & Kwon of course. This is what TKD means "the way of the brothers Tae & Kwon".








Just kidding.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

The point I was trying to make is that the components that make up TKD are something like ~2000 years old (The name itself, "Tae Kwan Do" is only roughly ~55 years old, if I'm not mistaken - It exsisted before then, just didn't have a "unified" name), so to say that it's "not really Korean because the people who invented it studied karate originally" is absolutely asinine.

Yes & no, as there are things that have shaped & went into TKD from Korean culture & history that have helped make TKD Korean. But make no mistake about it, 7 Koreans went abroad & then returned home & started to teach karate with some Chinese martial art influence. The students of these 7 Koreans went on to make Kukki TKD, which they 1st called TaeSuDo & while Gen Choi, 1 of the 7 & his students made Chang Hon or original TKD.

 

[dowan50]

I think that when you take away the Korean culture aspects of the art, then the art changes into something else. In another discussion, we heard what happened to Kenyan Taekwondo when non-Korean took over from their Korean born pioneers.

We also see it in Taekwondo at USAT, where a lot of the korean culture (which includes such things as respect for seniors) get thrown out the window. the influsion of western culture, more than anything else, and western attitudes towards sport is changing Taekwondo, not "sport" in and of itself.

Watch a basketball game and inevitably you will see coaches and players arguing with referees over calls. We look at that and say "see, that is a sport attitude". But if you go to Japan, and watch a kendo match, no one argues with the referees, at least not in the same fashion. What is the difference? In the US, we are taught to rebel and speak up when we feel something was wrong, whether we are right or not. In Japan, or other asian countries, not so much.

So sport is not changing Taekwondo, western culture is. This is occurring is Korea as well, where the biggest concern from the older generation is the westernization of their country and people.

My suggestion: If you wish to keep Taekwondo traditional, then keep the Korean cultural aspects in there. Don't blame "sport", because it goes deeper than that.

I agree with the Korean culture being what gives the beauty, art and life to TKD But it is not Western culture to blame but many of the masters sent here that decided to westernize and commercialize what was meant to be an Eastern philosophy knowledge base. Possibly KKW is to blame for this in stressing commercialization and maybe not? Loyalty, dedication to teaching the whole art were put in the back seat while constant watering down of rank advancement requirements and sport or grooming the elite fighters over the needs of the majority in the pursuit of having bragging rights to owning top fighters or having Olympic qualifications added to thier advertising all of this was in the rush to gain power to get money. Money the root of all evil is to blame and the pursuit of it. Adhering to centuries old principals that is what first drew Americans to MA.

I would tell you that the problems in the US are at the feet of those who brought it here and the chickens have come home to roost. Yes in general Asians/Koreans would never think of conduct like we see here but many of the 5,000 original sent to the US looked at us a commodity a lower class of people to be cultivated like a crop. People respect those who first respect them and they will rebel when they know they are being abused and taken advantage of. Human nature, people become what they are exposed to on a daily basis even health care or behavior health professionals become sick or mentally ill due the exposure to it on a daily basis. A master should care for and love his students even to the point of giving his life against danger if needed and in his old age his students should do the same for him and their students.

There are some wonderful GM Pioneers but to say that all are 100% with out any wrong doing related to how TKD was run in the US is not even historically close to correct. Politics in fighting between groups in every town over turf, bad attitude was a learned behavior. MA was meant to be taught father to son, master to disciple based on love and respect, you cannot buy knowledge from another they will give it or not based on being worthy to learn it. That was lost by TKD and others the day it was decided to be a commercial business. The largest increase in TKD practice in Korea started when it became part of the school system and that is what should have happened in the US instead of pay per student. Our whole society would have changed and we would not be 12-25th in the world in education right now.

I have become good friends with a second generation Korean Master who is brilliant and has a pure love of the traditional TKD who stated you Americans are greedy meaning American Masters. you demand to much respect to early how can you do that to a person who does not understand respect so you must first show it to your students. He stands alone refuses to be part of any of the politics today and he is a huge success.

To argue and focus on the negative will not help TKD but education and focusing on serving the public will. I would not even comment if it were not for blanket statements and generalizations of its all younger generations or Western culture at fault implying that only Korean born masters are perfect?

Really is that why at the World Hanmadang there was almost a riot and the whole thing shut down over a Korean born master attacking a judge that did not give him the score he felt his team deserved and all the non Korean officials were left to sit for two hours in front of the spectators while the Korean officials all walked out angry over being hungry?
This same master had to be physically restrained the next day during awards and to appease him they had to award two first place trophies. Or that an American demo team clearly scored 1st or 2nd place according to the rules by the non Korean judges and they were unanimous but were not allowed to judge officially and the team was put at 4th place. There were reasons for it that it had to be that way but not good ones.

We may not be Korean born or 75 years old but that does not mean we are stupid.

 

[Manny]

My suggestion: If you wish to keep Taekwondo traditional, then keep the Korean cultural aspects in there. Don't blame "sport", because it goes deeper than that.

This is something that really makes my day! In some way I am a TKD person who cares so much about tradition and cultural aspects inside the dojang. That's why I kept the comands, the words, the meanings,etc of TKD. I love the TKD hystory too and the sport side of TKD is not so much relevant to me.

Manny

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My suggestion: If you wish to keep Taekwondo traditional, then keep the Korean cultural aspects in there. Don't blame "sport", because it goes deeper than that.

100% agree: It does go deeper. The two most destructive things that I see to taekwondo are rampant commercialization at the school level and American sports culture.

The commercialization generally results in a school that is expensive and low in quality, be it sport, traditional, or any other aspect of the art.

American sports culture is the source of things like flipping off the judges, heatedly arguing with the ref, fist pumping, trash talking, and victory dances. I do not feel that Americans are taught to rebel in general, though American culture has adopted an attitude of questioning and of skepticism since the sixties. I don't see that as part of American sports culture.

American sports culture, while not all bad, has had a weird way of either overlooking or of rewarding bad behavior based entirely on athletic ability and performance. Athletes who really do not know how to behave make outlandish salaries. Coaches with questionable ethics who are verbally (and in some cases, physically) abusive to their players and the popular practice of trash talking. At a very grass roots level, you get parents participating in these shenanigans to the point of some parents being physically abusive to children playing for the other team and/or getting into fistfights with parents of children on the other team.

American sports culture is very different from the culture of Asian martial arts, even if those arts have a sportive component. Part of that is a general cultural difference, but much of it is specific to athletics in the US. Most Americans shake their heads at the behavior of many in the sports world. American athletics is kind of its own separate culture where behaviors that are normally left behind with the transition to adulthood are perpetuated in people who have long since graduated from high school.

The sport of taekwondo is just a sport. It cannot strengthen or weaken anything by itself, so when people blame the sport on taekwondo's problems, I am with you; they need to look deeper.

Had the sport been established for several decades before introducing it to the US, the bleed over from American sports culture to TKD culture may not have occurred or may not have been so dramatic.

Note: I say American sports culture because I am not familiar enough with sports cultures in other western nations to make that broad a generaliztion. I suspect that you have similar issues outside of the states, however (Angel Matos anyone?).

Daniel