sport TKD

[puunui]

Puunui might have a similar experience with the Samoan culture of Hawaii?

Samoan, Tongan, Hawaiian, take your pick. That's why back then my goal was to be able to drop someone at least 50 pounds heavier than me with one crack.

 

[puunui]

When I think of SD, I think of where I grew up, Cleveland's Little Italy. We had, and have, big fat out of shape guys who grew up in a culture of violence. These guys are pro's at turning a decision into violent action in the blink of an eye, and they are some of the most feared guys in the City. They are the best psychological warriors I have ever met.

Speaking of psychological warfare in Cleveland, during the 2001 Nationals there, a few of us wanted to watch an Indians game. The stadium was close so we went there. There were scalpers all over the place and we approached one, a big huge guy who was giving us the sell. So we bought some tickets from him. I gave him a couple of hundred for our tickets, and he gave us the tickets but was refusing to give us our change. He was mouthing off and trying to intimidate us, which was working on the guys I was with. In the middle of his hostile rap, I snatched the cash right out of his hands, as I stared at him with unblinking eyes. His mouth was open and didn't look like he would do anything if we walked away, but I got out exact change and handed it to him. No one said a word and we walked into the stadium, the two guys I was with staring at me with their mouths open too. Those two guys now coach for Hawaii, including one who was USOC Coach of the Year a couple of years ago, so if anyone goes to this year's Nationals and happen to be sitting next to them, try asking them about it. True story.

 

[mastercole]

I had a mate some time back who couldnt fight to save himself, any fight he got into he lost, many were not his fault as his job had him in some bad areas at the wrong times and he was mugged more than once. He took up martial arts and trained his *** off and a couple of years later someone attempted to mug him. The mugger made a big mistake and ended up being on the wrong side of the altercation. In this case what my mate had learned helped him to "defend himself", and therefore I would say that, to a degree, he had learned some "self defence". So if the owner of the dojang he trained at claimed to teach some self defence then I personally wouldnt have a problem with that because I know that without his MA training it would have just been another successful mugging. I understand where you are coming from when you say you cant claim to teach self defence but I dont think its that black and white.

I would venture to say that it was those fights he lost, those beating he took. How it all started, how it went and how it ended and what he thought about after each one, that changed his psychology, that changed his approach to fighting. Martial arts just helped, in a secondary way.

 

[mastercole]

Speaking of psychological warfare in Cleveland, during the 2001 Nationals there, a few of us wanted to watch an Indians game. The stadium was close so we went there. There were scalpers all over the place and we approached one, a big huge guy who was giving us the sell. So we bought some tickets from him. I gave him a couple of hundred for our tickets, and he gave us the tickets but was refusing to give us our change. He was mouthing off and trying to intimidate us, which was working on the guys I was with. In the middle of his hostile rap, I snatched the cash right out of his hands, as I stared at him with unblinking eyes. His mouth was open and didn't look like he would do anything if we walked away, but I got out exact change and handed it to him. No one said a word and we walked into the stadium, the two guys I was with staring at me with their mouths open too. Those two guys now coach for Hawaii, including one who was USOC Coach of the Year a couple of years ago, so if anyone goes to this year's Nationals and happen to be sitting next to them, try asking them about it. True story.

Smooth move, I like it. You did the right thing, of course, you were also very ready to back it up. I'm sure you have been in that spot before.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't think being a martial arts teacher, hard core on not, qualifies anyone to teach combat/fighting/SD. I think instructors who preach SD a lot are living in a fantasy world and are more likely to get their students hurt, or killed.

If your comment was in regards to sport methodology training, or refined motor skill training then I'd agree. But in regards to SD, with respect, I have to disagree. If an instructor is knowledgeable about the aspects and principles of SD, then it is actually quite easy to teach. Gross motor skill is easier to teach than refined. More importantly, it is usable in an actual altercation, whereas refined is not. And most important, it is stored in long term memory for easier recall, in some cases even decades after the initial training. And SD, effective SD can be taught in a much shorter time span. Sometimes a single weekend depending on the principle. For example, I've posted this before;

Many believe that years of training are necessary in order to defend themselves or ‘master’ the art. On this I’ll call B.S. This is not a correct statement and is not backed up by real world data. For example; the edged weapon defense developed by Darren Laur and promoted by Peter Boatman is very probably the best system of edged weapon defense, bar none, in the world. It is certainly the best documented in actual LEO edged weapon encounters.

Fact: Prior to the implementation of this program, officers in Great Britain were injured in 87% of the edged weapon encounters.

Fact: After implementation, the injury rate dropped to 17%.

Fact: This program is taught to line officers in a single 8 hour course and focuses on gross motor skill responses.

Fact: Refresher training was annually but increased to 18 months since it was demonstrated to be effective long after the initial training and was retained in long term memory.

Fact: My own agency (and those that use the system) have refresher training from 1-2 years since it has been demonstrated to be effective long after initial training which was less than 8 hours in duration.
Another example would be WWII combatives as developed by Fairbairn and O'Neill and taught to the FSSF, SAS and other special forces units. The training was anywhere from 8-24 hours. Based on gross motor skills. This system was effective in personal H2H combat and the results were usually lethal. According to a CIA report, WWII combatives as taught was found to be retained in long term memory and usable DECADES after the initial training with a high rate of success.
Long hours of training may make one feel good about what they train in...but it isn't necessary for self-defense IF what you train in is actually geared towards self-defense. As mentioned, it is gross motor skills that are easily learned and retained in long term memory. Knowledge of the O.O.D.A. loop, flinch response and adrenaline induced factors. Most 'modern' martial arts don't train in these things and don't even know what they are.

Teaching effective SD is like anything else, if you're qualified it is pretty easy which leaves more actual training time (though not always needed). If one isn't qualified then yes, it can get themselves or a student hurt.

 

[mastercole]

If your comment was in regards to sport methodology training, or refined motor skill training then I'd agree. But in regards to SD, with respect, I have to disagree. If an instructor is knowledgeable about the aspects and principles of SD, then it is actually quite easy to teach. Gross motor skill is easier to teach than refined. More importantly, it is usable in an actual altercation, whereas refined is not.

I think you and I are communicating with courtesy and I don't expect you to agree with me, and when you do, I don't find it disrespectful. I think you and I are doing fine. With that said,

Olympic Taekwondo uses gross motor skills. Also having someone trying to knock you out is an altercation, would you agree?

Maye you and I think differently about self defense, to you what "the aspects and principles of SD" ?

 

[mastercole]

If your comment was in regards to sport methodology training, or refined motor skill training then I'd agree. But in regards to SD, with respect, I have to disagree. If an instructor is knowledgeable about the aspects and principles of SD, then it is actually quite easy to teach. Gross motor skill is easier to teach than refined. More importantly, it is usable in an actual altercation, whereas refined is not. And most important, it is stored in long term memory for easier recall, in some cases even decades after the initial training. And SD, effective SD can be taught in a much shorter time span. Sometimes a single weekend depending on the principle. For example, I've posted this before;



Teaching effective SD is like anything else, if you're qualified it is pretty easy which leaves more actual training time (though not always needed). If one isn't qualified then yes, it can get themselves or a student hurt.

I hear knives are a big weapon of choice for thugs in England, many innocent folks and police get cut up and it is so bad that the government tried or did outlaw knives.

So much for taking everyones guns away.

 

[ETinCYQX]

My personal belief is that sport diminishes the art.

Sport is fine, as long as it remains a subset of what is practiced.

When art becomes sport, or sport becomes the primary focus of practice, then virtually all practice will fall within the realm of what is allowed in the sport. That is, if a technique is disallowed in the sport (or unrewarded), then that technique will not be practiced.

Lead leg kicks and twist kick come quickly to mind here. Master Koo taught us that lead leg kicks are usually not counted as points in competition because it is believed that they lack power. And yet, at one of the last tests I judged, one of the students going for 4th dan broke a stack of 6 boards (hand held) with a lead leg side kick.

Years ago in freestyle competition (where I spent the bulk of my competition career) spin kick (or hook kick) was not counted because it was thought to have little power.. that was the first reason. Once we started knocking people out, then they disallowed it because it was an uncontrolled technique (like a spinning elbow).

Taekwondo competition actually hampers self defense training in my opinion. This, because a punch to the head is disallowed in competition, the competitors tend to keep their hands low.. and don't really train against people who might punch them in the head. Even though this is the most common attack one encounters, sport taekwondo practitioners don't learn to guard against this in training. This, I feel is wrong.

The other side, however, is that you're training against full resistance when you spar in class. Same with Judo. In my personal opinion some techniques are worth sacrificing some development on for competition, because competition builds martial artists who can fight. A competitive TaeKwonDoin who trains the art as well is going to be an athletic, well conditioned, hard hitting fighter.

I am not advocating sport TaeKwonDo for self defense. Competition has been my focus in martial arts since 1998 or so when I started at 6 and I firmly believe I'm a better martial artist and better equipped to defend myself than I would be had I never had a competitive sparring match.

Just another side of the coin.