What can a 10th dan do that a 5th dan can't?

[Brandon Fisher]

Responding to this and the orginal question: Everytime I get a chance to be with a senior Grand master who still has great ability because they have been faithful to thier personal training it is truly and inspiration to me and others to make thier personal training a priority. However because a high rank may or may not look a certain way for many reasons do not be fooled into thinking they have nothing to offer. All things are not always what they seem.

That being said depending on the style 10th degree is usually reserved for one person only at a time possibly the head of the organization and that and higher degrees are usually reserved based on age and what that person has contributed globally not being able to leap a tall building in a single bound.

Those who have kept up thier personal training have adapted with age apropriate training like swiming daily and other regimines.

Usually if you need references or political courtesy or in the case of higher learning skills a 8th dan and higher will only be allowed to participate or you need thier recomendation that a 5th Dan cannot do for you.

You can always tell when you are in the pressence of the real deal.

 

[Cirdan]

After training with several 8-10th dans out here in Hawaii, I'm curious as to what others think regarding the question, what can a 10th dan do that a 5th dan can't?

No-touch KOs.

Some of them anyway. The same that call themselves Soke and pronounce it "soak".

 

[Master Dan]

No-touch KOs.

Some of them anyway. The same that call themselves Soke and pronounce it "soak".

I watched a no touch knock out with 90 of us in the room the guy put out was the biggest Jujitsu person in the room not a freind of the GM most everybody there was not affiliated with the GM. he also demonstrated vibrating palm hit through a yellow pages phone book to a mans chest and we took pictures of the red impresions of a palm on his chest hours later? Work in combat? probably not but in grapling and manipulation when I do it it hurts badly when he does it multply that by 10. The same manipulation of the index bundle to shoulder I do will submit a person when he applied to me with his Chi I could not feel my arm or use it for at least 30 minutes I will say that i felt great after very energized but did not wish to have the other side done.

When we were young the 10th Dan founder of Akido came to our tournament to do a demo on stage he demonstrated the Mind Block he said with his mind and a slight gesture of he hand he could stop an asailant from punching him. Of course all his students could not punch him. Our GM whispered only his students just BS technique of course we all thought that but did not have the guts to say it. We also thought all the self defense with only atackers walking like robots with one arm high in the air to chop you was weak but years later have come to find that there are many fine points to Akido and some very devastating skills. Possilby the demo students were not skilled enough to take the punishment of other applications?

 

[Cirdan]

I watched a no touch knock out with 90 of us in the room the guy put out was the biggest Jujitsu person in the room not a freind of the GM most everybody there was not affiliated with the GM. he also demonstrated vibrating palm hit through a yellow pages phone book to a mans chest and we took pictures of the red impresions of a palm on his chest hours later? Work in combat? probably not but in grapling and manipulation when I do it it hurts badly when he does it multply that by 10. The same manipulation of the index bundle to shoulder I do will submit a person when he applied to me with his Chi I could not feel my arm or use it for at least 30 minutes I will say that i felt great after very energized but did not wish to have the other side done.

Did he cut people in two with a saw and fix them back up too? Pull rabbits out of his hat?

When we were young the 10th Dan founder of Akido came to our tournament to do a demo on stage he demonstrated the Mind Block he said with his mind and a slight gesture of he hand he could stop an asailant from punching him. Of course all his students could not punch him. Our GM whispered only his students just BS technique of course we all thought that but did not have the guts to say it. We also thought all the self defense with only atackers walking like robots with one arm high in the air to chop you was weak but years later have come to find that there are many fine points to Akido and some very devastating skills. Possilby the demo students were not skilled enough to take the punishment of other applications?

You will forgive me if I sincerely doubt Morihei Ueshiba ever made such claims.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I watched a no touch knock out with 90 of us in the room the guy put out was the biggest Jujitsu person in the room not a freind of the GM most everybody there was not affiliated with the GM. he also demonstrated vibrating palm hit through a yellow pages phone book to a mans chest and we took pictures of the red impresions of a palm on his chest hours later? Work in combat? probably not but in grapling and manipulation when I do it it hurts badly when he does it multply that by 10. The same manipulation of the index bundle to shoulder I do will submit a person when he applied to me with his Chi I could not feel my arm or use it for at least 30 minutes I will say that i felt great after very energized but did not wish to have the other side done.

When we were young the 10th Dan founder of Akido came to our tournament to do a demo on stage he demonstrated the Mind Block he said with his mind and a slight gesture of he hand he could stop an asailant from punching him. Of course all his students could not punch him. Our GM whispered only his students just BS technique of course we all thought that but did not have the guts to say it. We also thought all the self defense with only atackers walking like robots with one arm high in the air to chop you was weak but years later have come to find that there are many fine points to Akido and some very devastating skills. Possilby the demo students were not skilled enough to take the punishment of other applications?

I was at an event where such was demonstrated.

I did not believe it.

They also were lined up from the the 4thDan's up to the 10th Dan to try to knock me out with a strike to the neck from an inch or so away.

The distance kept getting larger and still nothing.

When they were working on their third or fourth time depending upon when they got in line, this 8th dan pulled back and I stopped it there. I stated yes I believe and know if you hit me just standing here from the that distance with that force you can knock me out. I said I was not challenging their system. I was there to see others and was invited by one of the presenters. The 10th Dan then went into his explanation about how certain people and algnment of nerves and ... and ... and ... .

Maybe it is my disbelief that makes it not work, but I prefer to believe the physics behind it is just not there.

 

[Master Dan]

Maybe it is my disbelief that makes it not work, but I prefer to believe the physics behind it is just not there.[/quote]

Physiology has alot to do with it from one person to the next even all of you who practice different styles of grapling or manipulation have found some people less effected or in some cases it like thier nerves are dead in places so you have to adapt and look for targets of oportunity.

The basic theory or rather physics related to electrical impulses on some strike points are interupted by pain or duress this is why many need to come with out warning while the person is relaxed, others you want them to resist so it sets up a different group in another area.

The one inch puch was never a one inch punch the trick was that some were so fast you did not see them pull back and actually even the speed is part myth. Its slight of hand or miss direction to hide what you are really doing. In the old times it was called facination which was at type of hypnotisim if you could get them to watch your eyes they won't see what your hands are doing.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hmm, there's a number of interesting claims you're making here, Dan. Leaving aside your experience with "no-touch knockouts", can you provide any more details on "the 10th Dan Founder of Aikido (who) visited your tournament"? I don't know of Ueshiba travelling to promote Aikido that much, it was his son that started sending instructors out to disseminate the art (with himself travelling to the US for the first time in 1963, I believe, although teachers such as Tohei Sensei had already gone before him).

I'm also intrigued by your description of a 1 inch punch involving "drawing your arm back too fast for the other guy to see (?)", as that goes against, well, pretty much everything else ever said about that particular action.

 

[Bruno@MT]

It's funny how those no-touch knockouts only work with people who believe in them. Personally I think it is all hogwash. It only works if you allow yourself to believe it.

Here is Derren Brown, a non-martial artist. He is a mentalist / hypnotist, whatever who is an expert of getting into people's heads. Here he performs a no-touch knockout, just by playing the subconcious of the person he's hitting.

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And here, finally, is master ryukarin. A 10th dan who discovers what happens if he fights someone who doesn't believe in his BS. Master ryukarin retired affter that fight.

[yt]gEDaCIDvj6I[/yt]

 

[Bruno@MT]

Or to put it another way: there are 4 interactions in physics: gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear interactions. None of those 4 are used as a medium for no-touch knockouts. There is no physical interaction which delivers the blow. There is only 1 channel between the 2 persons and that is information. Information flows from 1 person to another, and convinces him that there is something that will knock him out.

Other examples of such manipulation include hypnosis, causing heat blisters with ice cubes, inducing fright, etc....
Another example of such a phenomenon is mass hysteria, in which one persons subconcious is acting as though something is real, simply because there is a group of people (usually with a strong personality) who acts as something is happening while it isn't. Mass hysteria can kill people, by power of persuasion alone.

In that regard, it is possible to knock out a person without touching him, but only if you can convince his subconcious that you are capable of doing this. If you can't, then you get the same results as master ryukarin.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, fun. Here's an old favourite....

[yt]KJr2BdUTYkU[/yt]

 

[seasoned]

Ha, fun. Here's an old favourite....

[yt]KJr2BdUTYkU[/yt]

Looks like a great workout.

 

[dbell]

That last one almost made me puke!! So fake looking!!

 

[Tez3]

I'v seen a no touch knock out close up and it was amazing............. so much so I had to run to the ladies toilet to laugh my socks off! Sorry there's no way that it was real, it may have been in the minds of those doing it but it was absolutely no way that it was a real technique. Loads of flannel about how it takes 30 years to learn and the 'Grand Master' doing it would only do it on his own students as it was too dangerous to do it on anyone else. I especially loved the other students of the 'Grand Master' rushing in to revive the students supposededly KOd one. All part of a choreographed routine I'm afraid.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I especially loved the other students of the 'Grand Master' rushing in to revive the students supposededly KOd one. All part of a choreographed routine I'm afraid.

Actually, I am willing to bet that the majority of his students would testify it is real. Throughout their training they are 'programmed' to react that way until it becomes automatic, just like ryukarin's students. It's only when they are confronted with an outsider that their act falls through.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

No touch knockout! Ridiculous! Shall we say absurd? It will not work in a physical confrontation when someone is trying to take your head off and steal your belonging's. Why? Because that person just does not believe in the mysticism. Simply put, no one can knock you out unless you buy into their sugestion. So if you are like me and most other rational people then you simply will not buy into it! I am more than willing to put up a $1,000 to entice someone to try and no touch knockout me and my friend Rich Parsons or someone else will second me. (ie standing behind so their is no hijinks) It will be video taped of course and their will be no one standing behind us and we will have our hands up! The deal is they get one shot at it with absolutely no contact. If contact happens then they get KO'ed by us! (right quick too) I will of course have lots of local media and try to get Penn and Teller or someone else there to also show the complete rubish that is this parlor trick! Sorry but not buying into this ridiculous trick that is perpetuated on unsuspecting students and the public! Now, I am not saying it cannot be done just that you need someone that is suggestible to you! That is the key! However try it on someone who doesn't buy into your mysticism/crap and you are out of luck!

Yes I have seen the parlor trick performed and understand the dynamics and yes it can be done on a suggestible student! However, step out and try it on Joe Blow MMA/Kickboxer/Muay Thai/Street Punk and well you will not like the results!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Maybe it is my disbelief that makes it not work, but I prefer to believe the physics behind it is just not there.

Physiology has alot to do with it from one person to the next even all of you who practice different styles of grapling or manipulation have found some people less effected or in some cases it like thier nerves are dead in places so you have to adapt and look for targets of oportunity.

The basic theory or rather physics related to electrical impulses on some strike points are interupted by pain or duress this is why many need to come with out warning while the person is relaxed, others you want them to resist so it sets up a different group in another area.

The one inch puch was never a one inch punch the trick was that some were so fast you did not see them pull back and actually even the speed is part myth. Its slight of hand or miss direction to hide what you are really doing. In the old times it was called facination which was at type of hypnotisim if you could get them to watch your eyes they won't see what your hands are doing.

I recognize the body has pressure points.

I understand that the body is a system.

I understand the the mental can effect the physical.

Some people can have a nerve center more exposed then others. Also rubbing it and or slapping can activate it.

My comment was the short strike to the neck did not work on me.

I did not believe the no touch knock out. That group did not offer to demo on me either.

So I may be wrong, but form what I got from your post was that you agee with me. That the no touch knock out is a mental trick on the person and not anything to do with physics.

Did I misunderstand your post?
If I did then I have no clue on what you were trying to post here.

 

[elder999]

Maybe it is my disbelief that makes it not work, but I prefer to believe the physics behind it is just not there
Physiology has alot to do with it from one person to the next even all of you who practice different styles of grapling or manipulation have found some people less effected or in some cases it like thier nerves are dead in places so you have to adapt and look for targets of oportunity.

The basic theory or rather physics related to electrical impulses on some strike points are interupted by pain or duress this is why many need to come with out warning while the person is relaxed, others you want them to resist so it sets up a different group in another area.

The one inch puch was never a one inch punch the trick was that some were so fast you did not see them pull back and actually even the speed is part myth. Its slight of hand or miss direction to hide what you are really doing. In the old times it was called facination which was at type of hypnotisim if you could get them to watch your eyes they won't see what your hands are doing.

1st off, the one inch punch is a one inch punch-what you aren't seeing is that it starts at the heel of the foot.

2nd off, here ya go:

 

[Tez3]

Actually, I am willing to bet that the majority of his students would testify it is real. Throughout their training they are 'programmed' to react that way until it becomes automatic, just like ryukarin's students. It's only when they are confronted with an outsider that their act falls through.

Sadly you are right. The funny thing was that at the last seminar I was at where the no touch people were, Iain Abernethy was teaching too and while they were advertised to do the no -touch thing again they didn't and stuck to proper techniques that do work, odd that having one of the worlds best exponents of applied karate there should make them change their minds.
It was rather sad actually that they have to do the no touch stuff when they had really good SD techniques to teach.

 

[KenpoVzla]

No touch knockout! Ridiculous! Shall we say absurd? It will not work in a physical confrontation when someone is trying to take your head off and steal your belonging's. Why? Because that person just does not believe in the mysticism.

Look man, it's proven proven proven I tell ya. Here.....take a look:

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[seasoned]

Look man, it's proven proven proven I tell ya. Here.....take a look:

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It only works on 40% of the people it is used on. What's the point, if 60% don't feel anything? Waste your time on this, when it only takes 1% to hand you your butt. I was always taught that nothing beats a good well placed hands on, punch or kick, or one of many other well placed techniques. These odds suck, if you ask me.

"Re: What can a 10th dan do that a 5th dan can't?"

Bull crap a lot of people, buyer beware.