What can a 10th dan do that a 5th dan can't?

[KenpoVzla]

Make organizational decisions?

I for one don't associate absolute or even relative martial skill with dan ranks at all. I've seen too many lower ranked black belts who can run circles around their seniors.

I hope you don't mean technical. You can't compare a 3rd-5th dan - around 25-30years old, to 8th and above...... 50 years old.

That and well, there's a tendency for seniors to teach and not train, I know some of the senior senseis I've trained with have lost some serious skill because of lack of training. i.e. they become masters at teaching the art.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I hope you don't mean technical. You can't compare a 3rd-5th dan - around 25-30years old, to 8th and above...... 50 years old.

That and well, there's a tendency for seniors to teach and not train, I know some of the senior senseis I've trained with have lost some serious skill because of lack of training. i.e. they become masters at teaching the art.

Good point. I know a few 5th and 6th dans that have dedicated the last 10 years to teaching the art and helping with organisational parts of the club, but in doing this they have not had a chance to actually train in over a decade. This would have to seriously affect their skill level.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I'd say it depends on the organization.
In my previous org (which was an organization for individual modern JJ dojo), dan grades were awarded for time in rank and contribution to the art (teaching). There were sensei who got their grades despite not training actively anymore.

In Genbukan, there is not a single person with 10th dan, and the system is set up so that only the next grand master will get there. Even people who have been training nearly full time for the last 30 years have only 8th dan. All practicioners are expected to keep training with their sensei, no matter how high they get. And each of their exams is a real exam. So in terms of difference: the difference between 5th and 10th dan would be enormous, and plainly visible.

Even Tanemura sensei himself keeping training under a different sensei in a different art and has to abide by the ranking order in that dojo. He says it is important to always keep training and learning, no matter what your rank is or how old you are.

 

[Mark Jordan]

10th Dan has shown commitment, perseverance and strength of character to handle the responsibility that comes with the grade and to keep going.

 

[Bruno@MT]

10th Dan has shown commitment, perseverance and strength of character to handle the responsibility that comes with the grade and to keep going.

I guess that depends from organization to organization.

For example, 10th dan in Bujinkan is attainable in 20 years.
In Genbukan, 5th dan in the same time period means that you put in a lot of effort and trained real hard.

A 4th dan in Genbukan means you trained very hard for a long time and really know what you are doing.
A 4th dan in Bujinkan can mean that you trained very hard for a long time and really know what you are doing, or it can mean you paid RVD several hundreds dollars for an online certification, or anything in between.

It is pointless to talk about the meaning of dan grades as if there were a universal standard of what each grade means and what you have to do to obtain it. Even withing 1 organization it can vary wildly. It all depends on how the organization is structured and how it is run.

 

[terryl965]

Basically they should have more wisdom and better understanding of the said art. But seriously all they can really do is talk about the glory days and promote people to 6th - 9th Dan.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Basically they should have more wisdom and better understanding of the said art. But seriously all they can really do is talk about the glory days and promote people to 6th - 9th Dan.

There is not a soul in the Genbukan who'd dare to take on Tanemura sensei.
And not because of the fact that they'd get kicked out, but because they'd get curbstomped.

I've read / heard several accounts of skilled members who had to attack him for an impromptu demo. If they ask how they should attack, he just says 'Don't worry. Any attack is good'. And then it invariably ends with them attacking for real and then going through a world of hurt.

I've even seen video footage online of Tanemura sensei holding a seminar for some branch of US law enforcement where he did something similar with the officers attacking him. And it ended the same way.

So as I said: it depends on the organization. In some organizations like Genbukan, the grand master keeps on training and improving his skills.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Depending on the art, age, and the way that they became tenth dan, it kind of depends. In kendo, the highest dan grade was ninth until a year or two ago when the FIK stopped issuing ninth dans, so the highest is eigth dan.

The level of depth in the art and the sublties that are mastered are staggaring by that level. Also, one has the perspective of age and the ability to see the big picture in a way that a fifth dan is not able. In arts where an association test is required, an eighth to tenth dan cannot promote a fifth dan to sixth on their own. But they can probably help that same fifth dan to find the ways to improve in the art and to attain greater depth and to prepare them for their sixth dan testing.

Now, if you are an eigth to tenth dan who is in their thirties, this will not be the case, which begs the question of how one got to eighth or ninth dan at so young an age. Many systems have minimum ages for high dans as well, so most eighth to tenth dans in their thirties or probably even forties, are likely not true eigth to tenth dans.

Chances are, a ninth dan under the age of forty has probably started his or her own federation and/or art declared himself or herself ninth dan, in which case they really are only whatever dan they were prior to that. Or they were promoted by someone else under questionable circumstances.... or simply registered themselve with an organization that takes a fee and does not check credentials.

Now, in arts where tenth dan is posthumous, it means that they have the answers as to what comes after death and are presumably continuning to train.

Daniel

 

[Touch Of Death]

After training with several 8-10th dans out here in Hawaii, I'm curious as to what others think regarding the question, what can a 10th dan do that a 5th dan can't?

This is assuming your martial art uses the dan ranking system, btw.

Win an eating contest. LOL

 

[Nomad]

In any organization that I've ever heard of, a 10th dan will win any argument with a 5th dan, regardless of who was "right".

 

[Bruno@MT]

In any organization that I've ever heard of, a 10th dan will win any argument with a 5th dan, regardless of who was "right".

Rule number 1: Soke is always right.
Rule number 2: If Soke if not right, rule number 1 applies.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

It depends there are 10th Dan's who have spent a lifetime perfecting their art not just physically but the mental part of it also. Then there are paper 10th Dan's who just had to much money burning a hole in their pockets. The 5th dan who trains and develops their skills both teaching and training are important to achieve this are far more qualified then the 10th dan who is only a 10th dan on paper.

 

[KenpoVzla]

Good point. I know a few 5th and 6th dans that have dedicated the last 10 years to teaching the art and helping with organisational parts of the club, but in doing this they have not had a chance to actually train in over a decade. This would have to seriously affect their skill level.

Something I do is ask higher dans 8th to 10th how they manage to teach so much, seminars and so on and keep up with their personal training. So far the answers I've got is that they simply can't keep up like before.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Then there are paper 10th Dan's who just had to much money burning a hole in their pockets.

I happen to know such an individual personally... sadly.

Daniel

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I happen to know such an individual personally... sadly.

Daniel

Me to. :-(

 

[Kajowaraku]

Rule number 1: Soke is always right.
Rule number 2: If Soke if not right, rule number 1 applies.

Soke is not 10th dan. Being soke is being above the kyu dan system, it is effectively the lineage holder. Only one exists in each ryuha *cough*
But you know this.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Soke is not 10th dan. Being soke is being above the kyu dan system, it is effectively the lineage holder. Only one exists in each ryuha *cough*
But you know this.

Of course. But according to the rules of the grading system, only the next Genbukan kancho can achieve 10th dan. And that person would (most likely) also be soke. So that is why I posted it like that.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

English - romanji - kanji - definition
soke - souke - 宗家 - head of family / originator
The heir to a ryuha would be considered "soke"

 

[Master Dan]

English - romanji - kanji - definition
soke - souke - 宗家 - head of family / originator
The heir to a ryuha would be considered "soke"

Sorry I thought they meant Sake or Rice Wine? for rule 1 and 2 my bad?

 

[Master Dan]

It depends there are 10th Dan's who have spent a lifetime perfecting their art not just physically but the mental part of it also. Then there are paper 10th Dan's who just had to much money burning a hole in their pockets. The 5th dan who trains and develops their skills both teaching and training are important to achieve this are far more qualified then the 10th dan who is only a 10th dan on paper.

Responding to this and the orginal question: Everytime I get a chance to be with a senior Grand master who still has great ability because they have been faithful to thier personal training it is truly and inspiration to me and others to make thier personal training a priority. However because a high rank may or may not look a certain way for many reasons do not be fooled into thinking they have nothing to offer. All things are not always what they seem.

That being said depending on the style 10th degree is usually reserved for one person only at a time possibly the head of the organization and that and higher degrees are usually reserved based on age and what that person has contributed globally not being able to leap a tall building in a single bound.

Those who have kept up thier personal training have adapted with age apropriate training like swiming daily and other regimines.

Usually if you need references or political courtesy or in the case of higher learning skills a 8th dan and higher will only be allowed to participate or you need thier recomendation that a 5th Dan cannot do for you.