10th Dan?

[jks9199]

Imo, they awarded that 12th dan so that noone would ever equal him in rank.
If he'd 'only' be 10th, then there would be people at the same level as him.
I guess that is why they made it a 12th instead of an 11th. That way they retained the option of someday instituting an 11th dan without having the same problem again.

Of course the kokodan can do whatever they want. They could award an 11th if they wanted to but at this time, that rank does not even exist.

This is not different from the 9th and 10th dan kendo. They still exist, but they are never aarded anymore.

Does 12 have a symbolic meaning in Japan?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Good question. Not that I am aware of.
There are various 'special' numbers from 1 to 10, but iirc, 12 is not really special. I think it was just chosen to keep the option of an 11th open.

I'll ask my sensei tomorrow. He has a masters degree in Japanology.

 

[Grasshopper22]

My Ju-Jitsu sensei is a 10th Dan. In Ju-Jitsu, you only get your 10th Dan (after 9th Dan) if you've made a positive impact on the martial arts community, my sensei has a place in the martial arts hall of fame so he earned his then.

 

[pgsmith]

My Ju-Jitsu sensei is a 10th Dan. In Ju-Jitsu, you only get your 10th Dan (after 9th Dan) if you've made a positive impact on the martial arts community, my sensei has a place in the martial arts hall of fame so he earned his then.

That all depends on the school. I know of several schools that are happy to grant someone a 10th dan as long as they'll either reciprocate, or pay for it. The same is true of many martial arts halls of fame. I was solicited for one a number of years ago when I'd done nothing of note to justify it. All I had to do was fill out the information for my biography, and return it with the $150 processing fee. Then, I could make my own travel arrangements, and pay my own way to their black tie banquet where my induction ceremony would take place. I told them no thank you.

A high rank and/or a position in one of the many halls of fame does not necessarily mean that someone is skilled and/or a good instructor. Research on the art in question, the association that has granted the high rank, and the instructor's teachers is the only way to determine credibility. On the other hand, if a person enjoys their training and are happy with it, then there's no real reason to worry about it.

​

 

[Kinghercules]

Grandmaster is a Title.
sure, half the grandmasters today are complete frauds but speaking about their lies on public forumns is not going to change that.

rather demonstarte to people and those masters what a true Martial artist is about.

Our Honour, respect, Skill and Passion.

I have experience in Judo and karate where your goal is to acheiev higher belts and i do admit that this is the wrong aim.

this is why i balance my walking of the way by practising Taji Gong where the only titles are
Junior student
student
senior student
teacher
and then our deceased sifu Kenny Gong, may his wisdom live on...

so yeh, ignore rank, title's and other such labels, just judge people on thier technique and honour code.

some fraud looking masters are actually very skilled and some are not, dont judge until you know.

I disagree.
We should call them out for what they are.
If they are fake then lets let them know that we know and everyone will know!!!

 

[Kinghercules]

All of this ***** about being ranked by ones own organisation/students is deplorable and makes a mockery of the martial arts. It then becomes an ego issue.
Cheers
Sam:asian:

IDk about that.....because when I think about it how did Mas Oyama get to 10th dan?
And Kenji Midori was a 5th dan when GM Oyama (his teacher) passed but he is now Shihan Kenji Midori promoted by the World Karate Organization.
So who promoted him? It had to be his peers. And I dont think one could say he doesnt deserve that rank considering his history in the art.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

so yeh, ignore rank, title's and other such labels, just judge people on thier technique and honour code.

some fraud looking masters are actually very skilled and some are not, dont judge until you know.

I disagree.
We should call them out for what they are.
If they are fake then lets let them know that we know and everyone will know!!!

You disagree that people should be judged based on their technique and behavior?

 

[Kinghercules]

You disagree that people should be judged based on their technique and behavior?

Yup.
Ive met a few ppl that self train and learned from videos. Yes they might look good, they might understand the technique, they maybe honorable and respectful.....but when it comes down to it they're a fake BB. From my understanding, ppl that self trained back in the days (lets say 1800's early 1900's) would go out and prove themselves. Not postin videos on Youtube about self defens! And yes Im thinkin about someone in particular. LOL!!! There's this guy on Youtube (and Ive been lookin for the damn video to post it) that has a school and is a 6th dan in TKD ( probably a 7th or 8th by now) and he was younger then me. When I asked him who trained him come to find out that he bought his **** online! And I was lookin at his classes and what he was teachin and he was teachin crap to lil kids!

So yeah if you fake Ima say you fake.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yup.
Ive met a few ppl that self train and learned from videos. Yes they might look good, they might understand the technique, they maybe honorable and respectful.....but when it comes down to it they're a fake BB.

If you (the general you) know what you're looking at, you'd be able to pick out the video trained or those trained by someone who picked something up but didn't really practice the art it came from. It always comes down to small details that cannot be picked up from video learning or from learning from someone who simply learned a lot of tricks for his repertoire but never practiced the arts from which those tricks came.

I was taught a couple of iai kata by a former instructor. He never claimed to hold rank in iaido (he is a kendo guy), but he had picked it up and was sharing it with some of us for fun. I learned ipponme and a friend videoed me performing it. I posted it in the Japanese sword section because I was curious as to what feedback I would get from iaidoka. I got quite a bit of good feedback.

I now train at a koryu kenjutsu/iaijutsu dojo and looking at the old video, I can find even more wrong with it. Given that I had no formal iai training at the time, it looked pretty good. But if I were passing myself off as an iai master, anyone who has six months of iai under their obi could have picked it apart.

Lack of formal training shows up in technique. No way to avoid it. Which is why I found it odd that you would not judge the veracity of an instructor based in part on his or her technique.

From my understanding, ppl that self trained back in the days (lets say 1800's early 1900's) would go out and prove themselves. Not postin videos on Youtube about self defens!

And just what is your understanding of people 'self training' in the nineteenth and early twentieth century? Do you have names for any of these self trained luminaries? I ask because in the time period you mention, the technical content of most arts was not well known or readily learned without an instructor unless you were talking about fisticuffs and wrestling, which have been part of western culture for centuries.

And yes Im thinkin about someone in particular. LOL!!! There's this guy on Youtube (and Ive been lookin for the damn video to post it) that has a school and is a 6th dan in TKD ( probably a 7th or 8th by now)

Ranked with whom?

and he was younger then me.

And how old are you?

When I asked him who trained him come to find out that he bought his **** online!

If he bought rank, that would indicate a person of dubious character, which would fall under the category of behavior or code of honor. You are judging him based in part on this, which falls in line with Nadia's comment.

If he trained online (video training essentially), then that indicates a flawed foundation in his technique, which also falls in line with Nadia's comment.

Based on your response to my question, I'd gather that we think along similar lines, though I am not overly motivated to call out the fakes.

The general public is willingly ignorant with regards to the martial arts. Most will spend weeks and months researching a five hundred dollar television, but will do no research whatsoever prior to signing an MA contract that will cost them thousands. With the volume of information available, there simply is no excuse for that. If they cannot be bothered to gather basic information about the school, then I see no need to sound the alarm.

And I was lookin at his classes and what he was teachin and he was teachin crap to lil kids!

Crap in what way? Not saying you're wrong, but saying 'crap' could mean almost anything. Also, did you visit his school? Your header says that you live in DC. If the school is in this area (I'm not to far outside of DC), would you mind posting a link?

So yeah if you fake Ima say you fake.

Take this for what it's worth, but you would greatly enhance the quality of your posts if you would treat this as an internet forum and not as instant messaging or text messaging.

 

[chinto]

in Okinawan Karate, 10th dan equals Hanshi, ( head man) and there is normally only one in a style. the belt is completely red, in most styles below that from 6th or 7th dan ( depending on style normally the red and white "candy cane obi " is worn. ( is red and white alternating bands, a red section then white then red again.

 

[Gentle Fist]

You guys are all wrong!!!

The great Soke Calkins once taught us here on MT that

(1st Dan + 1st Dan)+ Membership to Eagle Fed = 10th Dan

:BSmeter:

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

in Okinawan Karate, 10th dan equals Hanshi, ( head man) and there is normally only one in a style. the belt is completely red, in most styles below that from 6th or 7th dan ( depending on style normally the red and white "candy cane obi " is worn. ( is red and white alternating bands, a red section then white then red again.

Superman's belt is red. No wonder he fights so well! And here we all thought it was super powers.

 

[Chris Parker]

(Psst... Daniel... Superman's trunks are red, his belt's yellow.... sorry...)

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

(Psst... Daniel... Superman's trunks are red, his belt's yellow.... sorry...)

Get with the program Chris. Trunks are so 2010. Superman ditched the trunks last year.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, fair enough... So he's all grown up, huh? Looks younger though... I take it this is part of the whole reboot thing, yeah?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ha, fair enough... So he's all grown up, huh? Looks younger though... I take it this is part of the whole reboot thing, yeah?

Yes. They rebooted the entire DC Comics universe. Hopefully, they can avoid the buildup of bad plot lines that crept in after the last reboot in 1985.

 

[Black/Red Block]

I get supprised everytime I see a 40 to 50+ 10th Dan, I think how many years between the levels

I am the head of my school but I am still only Sandan (3rd Dan) I WILL serve the time that is expected as how would I expect a student to do what I'm not able to do myself.

I believe that the Titles that we see around the place especially with some schools that have been "self-awarded" IF they did the reasearch that you would expect from someone at that level, you would expect them to know that these titles can only be awarded by Japan's Budokai etc.

Under the National governing Body that I am with the timescales between each grade from Godan (5th Dan) to Judan (10th Dan) is 5 years whereas in most it increases with each level. Even then it still takes 43 years to gain Judan from day 1 whitebeltwith the bear minimum timescales.

Normally it would take the average person 58 years to get to Judan (10th Dan) again with the bear minimum timescales.

So as an average 50 years training the minimum age should be around 60 years old!!! NOT 40!!!

 

[Chris Parker]

Sure.... but you also have to realize that that is your organisation, and there is no such thing as a standard application of dan ranks. If a different art/organisation decided that they wanted to award a dan grade every three weeks, that's up to them. They could have 50 dan grades, if they wanted to. All dan means is "level", how many "level's" there are is completely up to the art (and the heads of it) themselves. You might want to read pgsmiths post on the first page for more details on that.

 

[Egon]

I didn't read all posts in thread..

Dan grade have meaning in organisation that issued it, not in other organisations (unfortunately, we have green belts with 10 years of experience and 8th dan worse than that green belt mentioned...really wide span looking worldwide). I think we cank now something about (or believe in) ranks issued by big and proved organizations of martial arts..let's say Bujinkan for Ninjutsu, any of mayor three ITF grupations, and so on..

I also believe that most of major martial arts groups require technical improvement up to 6. 7. dan grade, and after that your dans are awarded by what you do for you art and organisation..so that's how I see highest ranks. Probably 8,9, or 10 dan from some group isn't better then 5 or 6 dan from same group, but he have higher rank because he runs school(s), issue books, promote art..

This having said I discard any possibility that technical skill of highest ranks, 8+, is something special and that they are perfect and best. But, in any serious organisation that kind of rank can't be given' to somebody who isn't great martial artists for loooong period of years, who isn't a gentlemen and who isn't overall great person, most highest ranks I met were persons that can be your idol and you won't mistake.

About those self proclaimed highest ranks, I don't take them very seriously. Most of them that I met were good practicioners of some art, modified it a litlle, given it a new name and self promote himself to 10th dan. Damn, maybe 20 out of 100 people on this boards can do the same thing. Not sying they are bad, but most of them are simple regular folks trying to make extra money by calling himself 10th dan. I always preffered big grupations with traceable timeline, where you can approx. now what and who to except.

 

[Black/Red Block]

I didn't read all posts in thread..

.....................

This having said I discard any possibility that technical skill of highest ranks, 8+, is something special and that they are perfect and best. But, in any serious organisation that kind of rank can't be given' to somebody who isn't great martial artists for loooong period of years, who isn't a gentlemen and who isn't overall great person, most highest ranks I met were persons that can be your idol and you won't mistake.

About those self proclaimed highest ranks, I don't take them very seriously. Most of them that I met were good practicioners of some art, modified it a litlle, given it a new name and self promote himself to 10th dan. Damn, maybe 20 out of 100 people on this boards can do the same thing. Not sying they are bad, but most of them are simple regular folks trying to make extra money by calling himself 10th dan. I always preffered big grupations with traceable timeline, where you can approx. now what and who to except.

ACTUALLY, I've met a few 8th Dan and above Martial Artists who I would definately NOT consider as Idols or Role Models. Some have been the most egotistical, self-important "people" I know and I pray that I would never end up like them, if I did someone tell me and I'll quit martial arts forever. Respect is earned NOT expected

We've had the likes of Hanshi Cook, serving time for certain offences and I'e read about others too.

My opinion of a senior grade is just someone who has been training longer than I have, they're not a Demi God or someone to be worshipped. I hate those Senior grades who you can't directly speak to except through a Senior Dan grade who will ask the quest to the 10th Dan even though you're stood right infront of them too.

I could say I'm Soke X or Shihan X etc as I am the most senior instructor and no one is higher than me but I haven't. I could self award myself 8th Dan etc but I won't because I have respect for myself.

Unless they've been training for 50 years+ don't even tell me you're a 10th Dan (Ninja School is the exception as 10th Dan I think is the equivalent of 5th)

OSU