What are some differences between Karate and Taekwondo?

[Earl Weiss]

.......................that we lost track of whole people, not just written records.
I know that nowadays we're used to databases, photocopiers, web pages, etc. keeping meticulous track of everything going on, but I don't know that some karate instructor at Chuo University in 1942 is going to bother to make sure that "history remembers" the inauspicious-looking Freshman from Korea named Choi Hong Hi!

..

This was part of the Genius of General MacAurthur. When concentration camps were liberated he called in the press corps to photograph and memorialize what they saw as long as bringing many top officers. He knew that this proof would be needed to refute any claims that accounts were not accurate. We still have holocaust deniers. Even if you had paperwork like Obamas birth certificate. You'd still have jealous deniers.

 

[Prototype]

Read it. . The author uses a video of General Choi at approximate age of 80 and critiques quality of technique

FWIW I had seen General Choi at about that age perform a high Twist Kick without warmup in street clothes and shoes. I for one could only hope to has his level of ability at age 80.

I don't care about YouTube footage of an elderly Choi. What does however raise concern about his legitimacy is this:

“Very few of Choi’s men saw Choi do much martial arts during the fifty years in which they worked with him. He did not have to; he was a two-star general. He gave the orders to lower-ranking athletes, such as Nam (Tae-hi) who brought the art to life.”

 

[Prototype]

Prototype, let me put it another way: if it's a historical record that you want, what exactly would you expect that historical record to be?

• Are you expecting to find cancelled checks from Choi Hong Hi to Funakoshi Gichin, with "For karate instruction" written on the memo line?
• Are you expecting to find a big book in which Funakoshi Gichin wrote down the names and start dates of all his students?
• Are you expecting to find a diary from some Japanese girl at Chuo University that reads, "Dear diary, today the cutest Korean guy started school. I hear he's studying karate! I wonder if he'll ask me out?"

I mean, what's the written document that you think should exist?

I also think your same statement applies to many taekwondo and karate pioneers. We know that Won Kuk Lee moved to Tokyo in 1907 to attend high school...but what date did he start studying karate? We know Hwang Kee was in Manchuria during the 1930s, but what martial arts did he study there, and when? The list goes on and on.

I would at least expect specific years reported. Doesn't prove much but it's a start.

 

[Prototype]

General Choi was not 80 years of age in the clip instructing someone who is reported to be a young Jaroslaw Suska. I can't say that I am believer from that clip.

 

[TrueJim]

I would at least expect specific years reported. Doesn't prove much but it's a start.

But reported by whom??? That's the problem. Reported by somebody 20-years after-the-fact recounting a story they were told by somebody who was there? Because in a lot of cases for both taekwondo and karate, that's all we have...people recounting stories in their later years of things they remember from their youths. People weren't writing this stuff down as it happened.

Secondly, you could unfortunately make the same complaint for a vast number of karate and taekwondo pioneers. "Well we don't know exactly when they studied, but we do know they traveled abroad in such-and-such a year, so it's assumed they started sometime after that..." For quite a few pioneers, that's all we have! It would be so much nicer if people had been writing this stuff down as it happened, but mostly they didn't.

But if it makes you feel any better, I will now officially report that Choi Hong Hi studied under Funakoshi Gichin between 1940 and 1943. You heard it here first! Never mind I wasn't there; never mind it's decades later. It's a sensible conclusion based on when Choi was at Chuo University, where it is known that Funakoshi Gichin did teach. And I'm making it official by typing it in print. It doesn't get much more official than that!

 

[Prototype]

But reported by whom??? That's the problem. Reported by somebody 20-years after-the-fact recounting a story they were told by somebody who was there? Because in a lot of cases for both taekwondo and karate, that's all we have...people recounting stories in their later years of things they remember from their youths. People weren't writing this stuff down as it happened.

Secondly, you could unfortunately make the same complaint for a vast number of karate and taekwondo pioneers. "Well we don't know exactly when they studied, but we do know they traveled abroad in such-and-such a year, so it's assumed they started sometime after that..." For quite a few pioneers, that's all we have! It would be so much nicer if people had been writing this stuff down as it happened, but mostly they didn't.

But if it makes you feel any better, I will now officially report that Choi Hong Hi studied under Funakoshi Gichin between 1940 and 1943. You heard it here first! Never mind I wasn't there; never mind it's decades later. It's a sensible conclusion based on when Choi was at Chuo University, where it is known that Funakoshi Gichin did teach. And I'm making it official by typing it in print. It doesn't get much more official than that!

I would not keep it shrouded in mystery If I were taught by Funakoshi Gishin. Especially if I promote an alternative martial art and seek to establish credibility. But hey, that's just me. Kinda like not wanting it be known that Erwin Schrodinger was your professor in Physics. Let's not get that information out.

Do you see the illogic in all of this?

 

[Tez3]

I would not keep it shrouded in mystery If I were taught by Funakoshi Gishin. Especially if I promote an alternative martial art and seek to establish credibility. But hey, that's just me. Kinda like not wanting it be known that Erwin Schrodinger was your professor in Physics. Let's not get that information out.

Do you see the illogic in all of this?

The 'iilogic'?
Look at the dates...between 1940 and 1943 then have a think what was going on then...a world war. For Japan it was invasions then defeat and the chaos of occupation, for Korea, the end of occupation, then another war, it's no wonder things are unclear, it likely would if it were in the UK, maybe not the US but who knows, the war years weren't kind on anyone. The years during and after the war were notable for the confusion, chaos and people having much more on their minds than who trained with whom and writing about it. Perhaps it was written down and it was lost as so much was then. I think perhaps you need to think about this a lot more, remember two atom bombs were dropped on Japan and events in Korea were horrendous.

 

[TrueJim]

I would not keep it shrouded in mystery If I were taught by Funakoshi Gishin.

Do you see the illogic in all of this?

So you just want a reference that Choi himself said he studied under Funakoshi Gichin? That's easy enough:

FightingArts.com - Storming the Fortress: A History of Taekwondo - Part 4

"Choi stated that he studied karate at Chuo University under Shotokan founder Gichin Funakoshi, eventually earning the rank of 2nd degree black belt (Kimm, 2000)."

Boom! *drops the mic*

 

[Prototype]

So you just want a reference that Choi himself said he studied under Funakoshi Gichin? That's easy enough:

FightingArts.com - Storming the Fortress: A History of Taekwondo - Part 4

"Choi stated that he studied karate at Chuo University under Shotokan founder Gichin Funakoshi, eventually earning the rank of 2nd degree black belt (Kimm, 2000)."

Boom! *drops the mic*

Good! Now why are there still some some within the ITF who question that he in fact trained under Funakoshin? I've seen it written on Martialtalk.

 

[Tez3]

Good! Now why are there still some some within the ITF who question that he in fact trained under Funakoshin? I've seen it written on Martialtalk.

I imagine everyone in ITF says he didn't study under Funakoshin, they probably think he studied under Funakoshi.

 

[TrueJim]

Good! Now why are there still some some within the ITF who question that he in fact trained under Funakoshin? I've seen it written on Martialtalk.

Well pretty much all we have is Choi's word, and the fact that he was at the same university where Funakoshi sometimes taught in that timeframe (so it would make sense)...but for that matter, for a lot of these early pioneers, all we have is what they later told biographers.

And in any case, it's kind of beside-the-point, isn't it? Your original question was, "Why is there no historical documentaton/verification of when General Choi trained Shotokan?" I've already explained when he would have trained (high school and college, by Choi's account) and why there would be no historical documentation (because people generally didn't write these kinds of things down back then, and even if they had, there was a war on).

Take my own story as an example...I originally studied "traditional taekwondo" (i.e., more karate-like) at a college club back in 1978 in a small college outside Charlotte, NC. We trained in a racquetball court, and everybody (except the instructor) wore white belts indefinitely because quite frankly nobody in the club was worrying about what color belt they had. I doubt you'd find "historical documentation/verification" of my training there, and hey -- we weren't even at war! There weren't that many of us in the club, and knowing us all by name was easy, so writing down that "Jim was in the taekwondo club" for posterity's sake would have been a little silly. So, all you have is my word, and the fact that I was at that college in the timeframe I said I was.

Because that's how things worked, back in the day.

 

[Prototype]

Well pretty much all we have is Choi's word, and the fact that he was at the same university where Funakoshi sometimes taught in that timeframe (so it would make sense)...but for that matter, for a lot of these early pioneers, all we have is what they later told biographers.

And in any case, it's kind of beside-the-point, isn't it? Your original question was, "Why is there no historical documentaton/verification of when General Choi trained Shotokan?" I've already explained when he would have trained (high school and college, by Choi's account) and why there would be no historical documentation (because people generally didn't write these kinds of things down back then, and even if they had, there was a war on).

Take my own story as an example...I originally studied "traditional taekwondo" (i.e., more karate-like) at a college club back in 1978 in a small college outside Charlotte, NC. We trained in a racquetball court, and everybody (except the instructor) wore white belts indefinitely because quite frankly nobody in the club was worrying about what color belt they had. I doubt you'd find "historical documentation/verification" of my training there, and hey -- we weren't even at war! There weren't that many of us in the club, and knowing us all by name was easy, so writing down that "Jim was in the taekwondo club" for posterity's sake would have been a little silly. So, all you have is my word, and the fact that I was at that college in the timeframe I said I was.

Because that's how things worked, back in the day.

No account by Choi about his training in Shotokan that I've seen. No mention about Funakoshi as his instructor. All we have is: "I studied Karate". That's basically it. Karate is only mentioned in relation to Tae Kwon-Do as inferior. I want to know about his studies in the art to make such claims.

 

[Tez3]

No account by Choi about his training in Shotokan that I've seen. No mention about Funakoshi as his instructor. All we have is: "I studied Karate". That's basically it. Karate is only mentioned in relation to Tae Kwon-Do as inferior. I want to know about his studies in the art to make such claims.

Why?

 

[Prototype]

Why?

I would be interested as a marthial arts enthusiast to hear what conclusions he drew from his experience in Shotokan and how that influenced his Chang Hon-TKD.

 

[Tez3]

I would be interested as a marthial arts enthusiast to hear what conclusions he drew from his experience in Shotokan and how that influenced his Chang Hon-TKD.

Are you a martial artist or a martial arts enthusiast who doesn't actually train?

 

[Prototype]

Are you a martial artist or a martial arts enthusiast who doesn't actually train?

I do train. Love it.

 

[Tez3]

I do train. Love it.

Do you question your senior instructors the way you have the posters here who are senior instructors?

 

[Prototype]

Do you question your senior instructors the way you have the posters here who are senior instructors?

I haven't questioned senior instructors on their own martial art. I did question their knowledge of the cousin art. Shotokan originally not having roundhouse kicks in anyway shape or form is not a questionable subject either.

 

[TrueJim]

I would be interested as a marthial arts enthusiast to hear what conclusions he drew from his experience in Shotokan and how that influenced his Chang Hon-TKD.

Well I think we'd all like to hear that. Too bad he's dead and can't tell us. I'd just as equally love to hear Funakoshi Gichin talk about studying under Itosu Ankh, and hear about what he changed and why. I'm also curious to know what Hwang Kee studied in Manchuria, and why if quanfa was his base he adapted karate-like patterns for Tang Soo Do. I'd be interested to know if Byung Jick Ro made any changes to his art when he relocated his school from Kaesong to Seoul, and if he attributes any of those changes to the latter school's success after the former school had failed. I'd love to ask Haeng Ung Lee why he made up his own forms in 1969 for ATA/Songahm, rather than just using the ITF or KTA/Kukkiwon forms. I mean, the list of questions I have for dead taekwondo pioneers is massive!

For that matter, Jhoon Rhee is still alive (and lives not that far from me!) and I'd like to ask him why he developed his own forms, when there were so many forms already in existence that he could have picked from. Chuck Norris is also still alive, and I'd like to ask him what was wrong with Tang Soo Do that he felt the need to create Chun Kuk Do.

But you know what? I'm sure they had their reasons.

The point is, you can go down a real rabbit hole wondering what these pioneers changed, when they changed it, and especially why they changed it. For the ones who are dead especially, I doubt we're going to get that satisfaction though.

 

[Earl Weiss]

General Choi was not 80 years of age in the clip instructing someone who is reported to be a young Jaroslaw Suska. I can't say that I am believer from that clip.

Video in referenced / linked seems to be dated 2001 He was born in 1918. So, you are right. That would have made him at least 82 going on 83. (Not 80)