Earl Weiss
Senior Master
There is a photo. I will see if I can determine more about the 3 foot measurement.
What are some differences between Karate and Taekwondo?
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There is a photo. I will see if I can determine more about the 3 foot measurement.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Having now checked the Karate Do Text the photos for front stance seem to show 3 foot lengths from heel of lead foot to toes of rear foot. (This would be the same as the Chang Hon "Low Stance".
Now, with respect to Prototype. I made the comment that there was some uncertainty about the specs for the Shotokan front stance vis a vis longer / deeper than the Chang Hon Walking stance. Prototype expressed disagreement repeating a wideheld (and perhaps accurate) mantra that the Shotokan stances were designed by it's founder to be shorter and higher than many practiced later due to teachings / changes by the Founders son, and that this was an irrefutable truth and accurate.
Toward that end we can simply agree to disagree. I feel there is some uncertainty and disagreement. I have cited a source to support my point. Protoype is of the belief that there is no uncertainty or disagreement. Fine by me. .
Now, with respect to Prototype. I made the comment that there was some uncertainty about the specs for the Shotokan front stance vis a vis longer / deeper than the Chang Hon Walking stance. Prototype expressed disagreement repeating a wideheld (and perhaps accurate) mantra that the Shotokan stances were designed by it's founder to be shorter and higher than many practiced later due to teachings / changes by the Founders son, and that this was an irrefutable truth and accurate.
Toward that end we can simply agree to disagree. I feel there is some uncertainty and disagreement. I have cited a source to support my point. Protoype is of the belief that there is no uncertainty or disagreement. Fine by me. .
I am not excluding the possibility that Funakoshi eventually changed his mind on stance specifics, only that it had no bearing on what came of General Chois Chang Hon-TKD. My own take on it is that Choi Hong Hi more or less took the prevalent Shotokan stance over to TKD, and that later incarnations of Shotokan made TKD representatives, such as yourself, misinformed. And I say that with all due respect. It was not the case that General Choi was subjected to deep Shotokan stances and had the light bulp idea to raise them. As was also stated, they are raised in Shotokan at the appropriate level ranging from 3rd Dan (4th was incorrect). I reject this philosophy and advocate General Chois default stance, but I am also inclined to favour kicking more than your average Shotokan. There isn't neccesarily a right or wrong answer. Shotokan karatekas will tell you that the Chang Hon stance affects punching in a negative way.
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An I am the Undisputed Lord and Master of the Universe. And what do I have to back up my claim? Because I said so, that's what.
I am the law! - Judge Dredd
Well, during the war constant artillery bombardments made the ground shake so much that you needed a lower stance to keep your balance.
(Hey, it's not any more ridiculous a claim than the stories about jumping kicks to knock mounted warriors off of horses or the idea that board breaking demonstrates the ability of an unarmed karateka to punch through a samurai's armor. Other people have had their opportunity to promulgate silly fantasy history - it's my turn now.)
then you are broken............
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
For any pickers of nits. Same length as Chang Hon "Low Stance" but the Low stance still has the kneecap over the heel as opposed to the lower leg being vertical.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Having trained with TKD Pioneers that were doing TSD under the CDK which was basically Koreanized Shotokan, and then later recruited to General Choi's system, all of this in the 1950's, their stances were lower than what he later determined should be part of his system. That is why my perspective is different. They all would have been doing the higher stance if that was what was taught in the early 1950's.
The stances were certainly lower in 1950, but the original system was equal or higher than Chang Hon-TKD. And you would have to discount the Okinawa styles of Karate to begin with, in order to say that the Chang Hon-TKD stance is higher/more flexible for kicking than Karate.
people were shorter then............
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
No, I don't have to "Discount" anything. For convenience of all I repost what I said here:
"Getting back to the OP, as many have stated due to the variety of things referred to as Karate generalizations are difficult. Since you apparently have strong CDK roots which would have strong Shotokan roots we can use that for comparison. A major difference would be the "Strongly rooted" idea of Shotokan with the legendary story of it's founder on a roof in a typhoon versus TKD making power even while jumping. There is some disagreement on what Funakoshi wanted for stance length and depth, but many Karate practitioners favor longer, deeper and less mobile stances and more linear attacks as compared to TKD shorter stances and variety of circular techniques. ."
As you can see my post was qualified vis a vis making generalizations concerning the multitude of systems that may carry the "Karate" moniker. Further, I did not say "Flexible" and therefore cannot elaborate on what might be meant by that.
TrueJim
Master Black Belt
I think a better question is why would we expect there to be any historical documentation? Stepping away from General Choi in particular, just think about martial arts in general, historically...
- I mean, even just watching any of our favorite historical martial arts movies -- Ip Man or Once Upon a Time in China or whatever -- does it look like instructors back then spent a lot of time jotting this stuff down? I'm not sure it would have even entered into the consideration of a lot of instructors that this sort of thing even needed to be written down.
- But okay, suppose there was a school or instructor that kept a journal with a training record of their students -- it's not as if they had photocopiers back then! if that one copy of that one journal gets lost or destroyed, it's gone baby, gone!
- So okay, suppose some school did keep a record, and suppose they even kept it someplace really safe for posterity (though why they would want to do this escapes me) -- along comes World War II, creating enough chaos that we lost track of whole people, not just written records.
Personally, I'd be more surprised if there were any kind of historical documentation. Hell, during the Korean War we lost track of where Yun Moo Kwan's founder Sang Sup Chun disappeared to...we lost track of an entire school founder!!! That's war baby! We should be surprised we lost track of a college doodle on which somebody might (but just as easily might not) have recorded student names?
I raise suspicions if there is difficulties finding the specific years studying the art, let alone dates. Especially given that other reports, such as the Taekkyon information, is highly disputed. As well as the fact that Choi never displayed the level of martial arts proficiency that his name was tied to. No proof whatsoever.
Read this : General Choi Wasn't Very Good at Taekwon-Do | ITF Taekwon-Do
Read this : General Choi Wasn't Very Good at Taekwon-Do | ITF Taekwon-Do
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
It's the haters that dispute this since if you read General Choi's account there is only a brief mention about a short amount of time spent with someone who claimed to know Taekkyon.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Read it. . The author uses a video of General Choi at approximate age of 80 and critiques quality of technique
FWIW I had seen General Choi at about that age perform a high Twist Kick without warmup in street clothes and shoes. I for one could only hope to has his level of ability at age 80.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
Asked Nam Tae Hi about his old documents thinking it would be interesting stuff for an article i was writing. His response was that when he returned home from the Korean war. everything was gone. Home, buildings etc. Paperwork was lost along with it.
TrueJim
Master Black Belt
Prototype, let me put it another way: if it's a historical record that you want, what exactly would you expect that historical record to be?
- Are you expecting to find cancelled checks from Choi Hong Hi to Funakoshi Gichin, with "For karate instruction" written on the memo line?
- Are you expecting to find a big book in which Funakoshi Gichin wrote down the names and start dates of all his students?
- Are you expecting to find a diary from some Japanese girl at Chuo University that reads, "Dear diary, today the cutest Korean guy started school. I hear he's studying karate! I wonder if he'll ask me out?"
I also think your same statement applies to many taekwondo and karate pioneers. We know that Won Kuk Lee moved to Tokyo in 1907 to attend high school...but what date did he start studying karate? We know Hwang Kee was in Manchuria during the 1930s, but what martial arts did he study there, and when? The list goes on and on.
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