Were techniques of HEMA,bare knuckle boxing,and old wrestling TRULY lost before Asian MAs came West?

[Danny T]

You missed something.

Tez, though others may not, I throughly enjoy your humor.

 

[ballen0351]

Sounds like the dude is working out some ideas rather than trolling.

Street fighting has always had shared techniques even if it didn't have a codified system.

I love when trolls stick up for trolls it makes me giggle

 

[drop bear]

I love when trolls stick up for trolls it makes me giggle

New guys should get a bit of a break from the bullies.

 

[7BallZ]

Don't forget the misstatements about prison violence and eastern martial arts as well.

"Prisoners were able to kill someone with a knife. That's the same as using Eastern martial arts. Somehow this is relevant to the question of whether historical European martial arts have maintained a continuous lineage before being re-created from historical documents. Because reasons!"

Orcophile, on the off-chance that you aren't trolling, you are deeply confused about pretty much everything you mentioned in your post. If this is the case, you'll be better off asking questions rather than making a rambling pseudo-argument based on misconceptions.

Been months since I made this thread and I forgot about it but with my recent questions I'll go on.

I'm not trolling/ I'm not lying go watch a documentary on prison violence or even google rpison fights and violence.

I mean the mention of prisoners able to use a makeshift knife to disembowel a person in one slash a la hara kiri ritual used by the Samurais was quite an eye opener.

Not to mention prisoners who never took a martial arts class, some never even learning boxing or wrestling their whole lives, able to knee someone just because of sheer experience in violence was also an eye-opener.

It makes me doubt the notion that outside of a mainstream society, the notion of pinning someone on the wall to repeatedly knee him or knowing how to hit someone on the neck in a manner similar to escrima with a janitor's stick.

I mean prisoners able to imiatate medieval flail swinigng techniques by getting a sock and putting a lock or stone in it? ANd swining it with such skill to crack your skull in one head? Just from sheer experience? Even some of the thrusting techniques used by nunchakku were shown in the documentary I saw years ago by the prisoner who turned his sock intoa flail by inserting a lock in it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Been months since I made this thread and I forgot about it but with my recent questions I'll go on.

I'm not trolling/ I'm not lying go watch a documentary on prison violence or even google rpison fights and violence.

I mean the mention of prisoners able to use a makeshift knife to disembowel a person in one slash a la hara kiri ritual used by the Samurais was quite an eye opener.

Not to mention prisoners who never took a martial arts class, some never even learning boxing or wrestling their whole lives, able to knee someone just because of sheer experience in violence was also an eye-opener.

It makes me doubt the notion that outside of a mainstream society, the notion of pinning someone on the wall to repeatedly knee him or knowing how to hit someone on the neck in a manner similar to escrima with a janitor's stick.

I mean prisoners able to imiatate medieval flail swinigng techniques by getting a sock and putting a lock or stone in it? ANd swining it with such skill to crack your skull in one head? Just from sheer experience? Even some of the thrusting techniques used by nunchakku were shown in the documentary I saw years ago by the prisoner who turned his sock intoa flail by inserting a lock in it.

You're still completely missing the point.

Weapons are force multipliers. You don't need special training or a link to an ancient historical tradition to kill someone with a weapon. An untrained 15-year-old girl can pick up a kitchen knife and stab you to death with it. A reasonably coordinated guy who has never studied a martial art in his life can pick up a heavy blunt instrument and bash your skull in. A thug who has actually been in a bunch of fights before will be that much more deadly when you hand him a lethal weapon.

The point of martial arts training with weapons is to improve your odds of survival when fighting against a prepared adversary who is also armed. Anybody can kill someone with a sword. What training in a sword art gives you is the chance of killing an opponent before he kills you first with his own sword.

The point of

 

[frank raud]

Sticking a knife is someone else's gut and cutting them wide open is not the same as hara kiri. Many in the military are taught to do a "J" stroke to cause maximum damage. Figuring out how to make an improvised weapon is usually out of necessity, but soap in a sock wouldn't be a far stretch for a sailor who has used a monkey fist. Maybe it's your lack of knowledge that shocking, not that when people are put in violent situations, they may react violently.

 

[lklawson]

Been months since I made this thread and I forgot about it but with my recent questions I'll go on.

I'm not trolling/ I'm not lying go watch a documentary on prison violence or even google rpison fights and violence.

So you're not trolling, just naive and poorly informed?

I mean the mention of prisoners able to use a makeshift knife to disembowel a person in one slash a la hara kiri ritual used by the Samurais was quite an eye opener.

That's not Sepuku. And, from what my C.O. buddy tells me, that's also not the most common "makeshift knife" attack either. "Sewing Machine of Death" is, apparently, far more common.

Not to mention prisoners who never took a martial arts class, some never even learning boxing or wrestling their whole lives, able to knee someone just because of sheer experience in violence was also an eye-opener.

So violent people get used to doing violent things and get better at doing them with practice? And that's an eye-opener?

It makes me doubt the notion that outside of a mainstream society, the notion of pinning someone on the wall to repeatedly knee him or knowing how to hit someone on the neck in a manner similar to escrima with a janitor's stick.

Umm... What? No, strike that. Never mind. I'm sure it'll just be more babble so I don't want to know.

I mean prisoners able to imiatate medieval flail swinigng techniques by getting a sock and putting a lock or stone in it? ANd swining it with such skill to crack your skull in one head? Just from sheer experience?

"Imitate medieval flail?" What? Flails have been used by humanity since we first figured out you can tie a vine to a rock and have been in non-stop use ever since. The use of an improvised flail, most commonly called a "Slungshot" for the last two centuries, by both criminal and non-criminal, never stopped and there have always been a few people who could pass on a few "tricks" (high percentage techniques) but, even that aside, it doesn't take particular skill to swing a flail. It does take a little skill to keep from hitting your own self if you miss your target, but that's easily enough learned.

Even some of the thrusting techniques used by nunchakku were shown in the documentary I saw years ago by the prisoner who turned his sock intoa flail by inserting a lock in it.

Friend, just stop trying to justify your original thesis. It was wrong. Learn from that and move on. That's how science and research works. Propose a thesis. Test it and submit it to peer review. If it gets knocked down, discard or modify the thesis for something that won't get knocked down.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Touch Of Death]

You're a troll, right? That's the only way to explain so many misstatements and massive inaccuracies leveled at "HEMA" and WMA in general.

Anyone who writes that much for that long, seems ligit to me.

 

[lklawson]

Anyone who writes that much for that long, seems ligit to me.

He keeps ignoring the subject matter experts replying to him, in favor of his own thesis, and has now started no less than 3 distinct threads with the same basic gist.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk