Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Dear Eternalwhitebelt:
Sorry, but I ain't being misled. I never expected that kenpo would make me invulnerable, nor was it ever suggested in my training that it would.
More importantly, could you explain--with precise examples--precisely what it is that you find so much more comprehensive and developed in the Filipino knife strategies, tactics and techniques? Could you contrast this to the Form 7 and Form 8 material?
I don't mean to merely disagree--I'm certainly not claiming any expertise with weapons--but I should very much like to see details.
Let me repeat: all I'm asking for is precise detail. I've no idea whether you're right or not, and I've no intention of running out to study another art: I'd just like to read some precise explanations of just what you're talking about.
Thank you, in advance, for your time.
The word invunerable is no where in my post, so I don't know where that was coming from, but I will try to answer your post as best as I can. I have a feeling I am being set up by your questioning but I will give it my best shot anyway. Need I state that these are of course just my opinons, and I do think I am qualfied because I have trained in both arts. Do I think I know everything? Of course not, but here goes.
The weapons of AK consist of the basic techs. against a club, stick, knife, and Gun. Staff set. Form 6 introduces these techs. in a set pattern with some other empty handed techs., adapted for this purpose. Old form seven was orginally a double dagger form. It was later moved to eight and seven became a double stick form. The original double dagger form has been changed. Some do it the old way and some do not.
We can probably agree on this so far. (I hope.) Now the debate.
1. Form 6 doesn't take into account the reverse motion of an attackers hand. (Unfurling the lance as an example.) I find this strange because kenpo is big on reverses and opposites and things like that. Every filipino art I have studied takes this into account with the first lesson. With the exception of striking disarms, this form does not go into detail about disarms. Yes the isolations at the end teach two. How many people know this? What about the other variations, such as a strip and keep? What about from other angles of attack? What about counters? What about trap door techs.? This is too difficult to teach in a form( I say impossible). If the opponent does not drop the weapon, do most people know to not let go of the weapon bearing limb and perform the techs. one handed or no handed? (I.E. never let go untill th weapon is gone!) More importantly do they train this? I have sen a lot of high ranking black belts commit this error. Slice and Dice is the term we use.
2. Form 7. The premise is wrong. You have two sticks against an unarmed opponent. This teaches nothing about weapons combat. The second set of moves (Reversing Storm) violates a rule of weapons. Weapon always moves on the outside first. This is one of the reasons ( I think) that kenpo sticks are supposed to be shorter than most filipino sticks. If you have weapons training and you see someone perform this move it makes you cringe because it is one of the first things you are taught NOT to do in the filipino arts. The stick is easily trapped. If this motion were transfered to the blade you would cut your own arm. Hence the rule. This is a MAJOR difference between an unarmed system and a system based on weapons.
3.Form 8. Same as above. I have seen this form done many ways, against a mythical armed opponent and ofcourse against an unarmed opponent and so on. TO ME, what I stated above still apllies. To be quite honest with you, after studying the filipino arts I quit doing these forms. They seemed like a waist of time, and something that was just added on to the system.(my opinion). Whirling Lance will get you sliced if the opponent knows what he is doing. I still do 6. I just think about adding the disarms. When I work these techs. on a person I always do a strip or never let go of the limb. You have to do on or the other.
4.There is no laid out curriculum for weapon vs weapon training. I know I will get a lot of responses stating that Mr. Parker took it into consideration, just read insights and so on and so forth. However from my experience with many different seniors, some have tried to DEVELOPE a curriculum and some have not. I speak mainly of Mr. Pick and Mr. Mills. Huk also taches weapons. Can these men handle weapons in a fight? Of course they can. It is my experience in AK that they are the exception and not the rule. It is also my experience that a lot of the things they are teaching are in the Filipino arts, almost verbatim. Is this an unpopular view? Yes, but again it is just my observation. Some seniors will say that and some will say they created it. I don't really care either way, knowledge is knowledge.
5. The filipino arts that I have studied, not only teach you a systematic approach in dealing with certain weapons senarios,(unarmed vs knife, unarmed vs stick, knife vs knife,knife vs stick, stick vs stick, and so on, but they aso give you flow drills that help you practice them AGAINST ANOTHER PERSON PROVIDING RESISTANCE. Instead of just doing repititions of static techs. you get the feel of working at full speed with MANY variables thrown in. A persons skill level jumps by leaps and bounds.
6.Kenpo lacks these drills, even for empty-handed combat. That is why a lot of people are adding hubud-lubud, and chi-sao to their training. It only helps. This structure is not in kenpo. I don't believe the argument that it is in the freestyle part of the system. This is severely lacking when compared.
6. Many people always state, it is all in kenpo you just have to know what you are looking for. Granted this statement is usu. by a student who has only been in it a couple of years but still you get the point. That is hogwash. I learned more in 3 months of filipino weapons training than I ever learned in years of working kenpo weapons. The strucure is just not there when it comes to WEAPONS.
.7. And of course the most important reason is that I have never seen a kenpo person handle a weapon as good as a person who has been trained in the filipino arts. This goes for both the stick and the knife. Have I seen everyone? No. Again just my opinion. It took a lot for me to admit to myself that I did not know anything about weapons. It is hard to be arrognant when you are consistently being disarmed and your knife is returned to your throat. You either accept the truth and swallow your pride, or you can continue to live in a fantasy world and hope that a deadly situation never comes up. I chose to swallow my pride and started to learn other ways. In fact every person in kenpo that I have met in person and has had an open enough mind to work out, has left the session with their mind changed when it comes to weapons. I say this freely admitting that I am only an average student when it comes to the filipino arts. I have only studied them for five years and I consider AK my true art. If you were to take AK as the base and learn basic weapons rules and some flow drills like( spelling is wrong I am sure) hubud, siniwalli, palisut, sumbrada, basic lock flows, and learn how to incorporate all of that together, well I can't think of anything better.
This was long winded and I am not sure that I even really accomplished what you wanted. Ultimately, it does not matter, because as long as a person has faith in what they know that is half the battle right? Some say attitude is the most important thing but I really think it is knowledge. Knowledge is really the key. I just want to understand motion. Empty handed and with weapons.
Mr. Robertson I hope I did a decent job of answering your post. I also do want to repeat that I think AK is a wonderful Empty-Handed art.
Salute.
