Brother John
Senior Master
I really thought more people would comment on this thread than this...
Oh well.
Maybe in the future.
Your Brother
John
Oh well.
Maybe in the future.
Your Brother
John
Originally posted by Brother John
I really thought more people would comment on this thread than this...
Oh well.
Maybe in the future.
Your Brother
John
It's just one of those subjects that has been discussed several times.
There will never be the unity as there was during the SGM Parker days. Everybody will do their own thing. After the 1st generations are gone, I'm sorry to say, many will go their own way.
Right now, Kenpo is a generic term for a grouping of various systems.
20 years down the road, it's quite possible that American Kenpo will be a generic term for a style which will comprised many different systems. Its already started and I'm sure some will say that's what it is now.
These are just my opinions and I could always be wrong.
just not likley.
there wasn't much unity in Mr. Parker's day either-- most of his first group of black belts left him REAL early. He maintain good relations with a few of them but they still went off to do their own version of Kenpo or other arts.
German, Ibrao, Tracy, Inosanto, Dimmick, Castro, Muhammed, Tuilosega, etc.
peace.
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
Ed Parkers American Kenpo however is just that...... LOGIC..... utilizing whatever is necessary for the current circumstances as tailored for the individual.
I feel that there is a GREAT foundation already systematized... it's when individuals do not learn completely or understand the broad interpretations, is when there becomes a problem of limited expansion.
Our "Traditional" system is based upon learning all of the "Kenpo Tools" (learning the strong foundation [physical, mental & spiritual] that was established and training it) that we now have and continually searching/expanding for new or better ones. Thinking "outside the box" is a set philosophy for the advanced student. So many, are still in the embryonic stages of technique sequencing that they do not see and may never see the beauty of what Ed Parker really had developed, a multi-dimensional system.
What I want from my organizations students is to learn as much as they can from me, develop strong physical skills, learn the Kenpo Tools well, practice what they have learned, then explore and validate for themselves what has been shown to them by researching other "Kenpo Systems" and compare the material and results. It will be self evident.
Also I try to instill discipline, respect for the founder of the System (Ed Parker), His art and our lineage, camaraderie, (a sincere effort to always work with and help each other & share their specific individual talents on anything that they can), and finally to pass on all the art as they have received for the future generations to benefit as we have.
Dedicated students are hard to find...... but they are out there! The training may not be easy, fun, or convenient at times, but like the old saying goes...... "When the student is ready....... the teacher will appear".
The future looks very bright to me.....
"There are two ways of spreading the light.... 1) to be the candle, or 2) the mirror that reflects it."
:asian:
OP
OP
Kenpo Yahoo
Guest
I was hoping you might jump in here. Thank you for your response, your insight is always appreciated.
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
Thank you!
:asian:
:asian:
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Being a "Tracyite", my comments may not be welcome, but you're gonna get them anyway. :lol:
I think that folks have to see beyond the politics ... Those are going to be around forever. All the American Kenpo Associations, in my limited experience, seem to be in an ongoing process of stealing students from each other. Good or bad? Don't know... But it is one sure way of spreading the art, and creating new ways of seeing, being and doing. There will be loyalists to each of the groups, but there are many who will move around and get different views and education. They will, in turn, push a lot of different views and slants on the theories, philosophies and techniques.
Occasionally I get questions from AK folks and they are surprised that the actuality doesn't live up to the "bad" press. We have as much of the technical as AK does, just different terms and those are only words. Definitions of anything we agree on are only as valid as your paradigm and hallucinations intermesh with mine. That's not to start an argument. Just saying that you can't believe all the boo-ha-ha that is out there, if you don't go and see for yourself. After all, the eskimos have 17 different definitive words for snow, whereas we only have about two, snow and yellow snow... And you have to watch where the huskies go, and dont you eat THAT yellow snow. :lol:
I see Kenpo in America continuing to be and expanding even more into different methods and ways, particularly as the seniors pass out of the art and their roots aren't as well grown or as deep as they should be perhaps. Maybe due to limited sight or concept of artistic potential given up in lieu of political gain.
Even the Tracy Organization goes through the splits and regroups. They're just not as widely advertised or well known. People are changing syllabus all the time, changing technique and grasping for financial and political power within the organizations, all of them, changing emphasis and realigning allegiances and loyalty.
The only thing that is really certain in any living art like Kenpo is change. Particularly as our education process and communication process improves. We would have killed for internet connectivity back in the mid-sixties when I, and a number of others first got into the arts, way back in the old days. I'm excited to see what this will all be and where we will all be in ten years. Who knows ...
And in an aside, I would be classified as a senior, but Dennis Conatser assures me that I really am his son, and so, am only a junior!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Dan "Dennis Junior but somewhat better looking" Farmer
I think that folks have to see beyond the politics ... Those are going to be around forever. All the American Kenpo Associations, in my limited experience, seem to be in an ongoing process of stealing students from each other. Good or bad? Don't know... But it is one sure way of spreading the art, and creating new ways of seeing, being and doing. There will be loyalists to each of the groups, but there are many who will move around and get different views and education. They will, in turn, push a lot of different views and slants on the theories, philosophies and techniques.
Occasionally I get questions from AK folks and they are surprised that the actuality doesn't live up to the "bad" press. We have as much of the technical as AK does, just different terms and those are only words. Definitions of anything we agree on are only as valid as your paradigm and hallucinations intermesh with mine. That's not to start an argument. Just saying that you can't believe all the boo-ha-ha that is out there, if you don't go and see for yourself. After all, the eskimos have 17 different definitive words for snow, whereas we only have about two, snow and yellow snow... And you have to watch where the huskies go, and dont you eat THAT yellow snow. :lol:
I see Kenpo in America continuing to be and expanding even more into different methods and ways, particularly as the seniors pass out of the art and their roots aren't as well grown or as deep as they should be perhaps. Maybe due to limited sight or concept of artistic potential given up in lieu of political gain.
Even the Tracy Organization goes through the splits and regroups. They're just not as widely advertised or well known. People are changing syllabus all the time, changing technique and grasping for financial and political power within the organizations, all of them, changing emphasis and realigning allegiances and loyalty.
The only thing that is really certain in any living art like Kenpo is change. Particularly as our education process and communication process improves. We would have killed for internet connectivity back in the mid-sixties when I, and a number of others first got into the arts, way back in the old days. I'm excited to see what this will all be and where we will all be in ten years. Who knows ...
And in an aside, I would be classified as a senior, but Dennis Conatser assures me that I really am his son, and so, am only a junior!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Dan "Dennis Junior but somewhat better looking" Farmer
Brother John
Senior Master
I think that it's scope will be even more vast than it is now, as a whole. By that I mean that the different "branches", if you will, will add a great deal of diversity and change. Some will raise the bar higher than it's ever been (as I feel the AKKI is doing, along with some others) some will just be 'different', some will stay the same and others will water-down and dilute. I think that the torch must be passed for logic and refinement regardless of what 'branch' your'e on... this is what will make Kenpo and Kenpoists greater and greater. Kenpo is enriched by the presence of the "Elder Dragons" of Kenpo, but when they "Pass" (in whatever manner you may take that) it's what they have given us that will go on breathing or die; Kenpo doesn't rely on them... no matter how much we may love them.
my thoughts
Your Brother
John
John James
Yellow Belt
Hello Everyone,
I usually don't partake in these discussions, but this one is one that I have been pondering since my teacher, Professor Cerio, passed away. It is true that after the passing of a leader/founder that things will not be the same as they were when the leader was alive. No matter how hard the system tries. The evolution of the martial arts is growth and sometimes this requires change. Sometimes big and sometimes small. When Professor Cerio passed away, the schools that wanted to leave and go independent did just as it happened when other systems leaders passed away. The offshoot systems will definitely change, that usually is the primary reason for them leaving. They want to be in charge/control of their future and they want control over how they teach their art. This sometimes means 'modifying' techniques for the 'better'. My opinion on the future of Kenpo simple. When leaders pass away the senior students become the leaders. They have the responsiblity of upholding their teachers art and memory with honor and dignity. This is not only loyalty and respect for your teacher but it is also EXPECTED under the martial arts code of ethics. Why has Shotokan stayed relatively intact. Because senior students have been loyal to Funakoshi's teachings. However, I do advocate for the GROWTH of a system. It is only natural for senior students to emphasize what they like and can do best in their teachings. This is going to lead to sub-systems within a system if done correctly. This is a GOOD thing. One senior might continue his training in the 'traditional' Kenpo, another might choose jui-jitsu, another might continue along the internal arts. But ALL will continue to practice their BASE art together. Then they will add 'optional' techniques to the cirriculum when their understanding of their chosen specialty is sufficient to do so. This way you will have different flavors within a system and will make it more diverse and be able to grow with strength and unity rather than the usual student leaves and changes the school name and professes to be teaching the 'real' art. I am sorry for overdoing this post, but I sometimes shake my head in disbelief at what happens when the leader/founder passes. When this happens, the sytem should be STRONGER not weaker because all the seniors should band together to make sure that their teachers memory is upheld with honor and dignity. Unfortunately, you know the rest. This rarely happens. When seniors leave, are they doing it for their teacher or themselves? The art you learned is a gift given to you by your teacher and one he trusted to you. Do the right thing by him and make him proud that you were his student. Just my thoughts. Thank you for your time.
Sincerely
John James,
Nick Cerio's Kenpo
I usually don't partake in these discussions, but this one is one that I have been pondering since my teacher, Professor Cerio, passed away. It is true that after the passing of a leader/founder that things will not be the same as they were when the leader was alive. No matter how hard the system tries. The evolution of the martial arts is growth and sometimes this requires change. Sometimes big and sometimes small. When Professor Cerio passed away, the schools that wanted to leave and go independent did just as it happened when other systems leaders passed away. The offshoot systems will definitely change, that usually is the primary reason for them leaving. They want to be in charge/control of their future and they want control over how they teach their art. This sometimes means 'modifying' techniques for the 'better'. My opinion on the future of Kenpo simple. When leaders pass away the senior students become the leaders. They have the responsiblity of upholding their teachers art and memory with honor and dignity. This is not only loyalty and respect for your teacher but it is also EXPECTED under the martial arts code of ethics. Why has Shotokan stayed relatively intact. Because senior students have been loyal to Funakoshi's teachings. However, I do advocate for the GROWTH of a system. It is only natural for senior students to emphasize what they like and can do best in their teachings. This is going to lead to sub-systems within a system if done correctly. This is a GOOD thing. One senior might continue his training in the 'traditional' Kenpo, another might choose jui-jitsu, another might continue along the internal arts. But ALL will continue to practice their BASE art together. Then they will add 'optional' techniques to the cirriculum when their understanding of their chosen specialty is sufficient to do so. This way you will have different flavors within a system and will make it more diverse and be able to grow with strength and unity rather than the usual student leaves and changes the school name and professes to be teaching the 'real' art. I am sorry for overdoing this post, but I sometimes shake my head in disbelief at what happens when the leader/founder passes. When this happens, the sytem should be STRONGER not weaker because all the seniors should band together to make sure that their teachers memory is upheld with honor and dignity. Unfortunately, you know the rest. This rarely happens. When seniors leave, are they doing it for their teacher or themselves? The art you learned is a gift given to you by your teacher and one he trusted to you. Do the right thing by him and make him proud that you were his student. Just my thoughts. Thank you for your time.
Sincerely
John James,
Nick Cerio's Kenpo
S
Steve Howard
Guest
Mr. James,
thank you. I don't think you overdid your post at all. Quite the contrary, I thought that you struck clearly and honestly into the heart of the matter. If we could embrace the basis of the art that we share while celebrating our individual differences and uniqueness instead of arguing over who gets to be top man on the totem pole our art would be much stronger. Let's hope your post didn't fall on completely deaf ears. Our senior have started to take steps toward healing the rift with such events as Gathering of Eagles and similar gatherings. Let's hope the younger generation of practitioners will pick up this torch and really run with it.
Salute,
Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com
thank you. I don't think you overdid your post at all. Quite the contrary, I thought that you struck clearly and honestly into the heart of the matter. If we could embrace the basis of the art that we share while celebrating our individual differences and uniqueness instead of arguing over who gets to be top man on the totem pole our art would be much stronger. Let's hope your post didn't fall on completely deaf ears. Our senior have started to take steps toward healing the rift with such events as Gathering of Eagles and similar gatherings. Let's hope the younger generation of practitioners will pick up this torch and really run with it.
Salute,
Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com
K
Kroy
Guest
As long as the IKKA is still around you will always see Parker Kenpo taught the way he intended. Stay true to the art.:asian:
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
I hate to be the one to break the news to you but......... What does the IKKA have to do with the way Mr. Parker intended his system to be taught? I disagree totally!
There are several of us out here that are carrying on Mr. Parker's system "as Mr. Parker intended it to be taught" {as you say} equal to if not better than anyone in the IKKA. The "association" means nothing in relation to what you say, many of us who spent years with him are still as loyal today as we were 13 + years ago, (yes, I also realize that some are totally off base as well, but we can't stop them - can we) and are still keeping his name and his ART alive and well [the IKKO is such an Organization].
Please don't confuse specific associations with Ed Parker Loyalists, regardless of affiliation.
:asian:
C
Chicago Green Dragon
Guest
I see Kenpo in the future progressing forward but I also see the constant bickering and politics still being there. I do see a lot of new styles developing from Kenpo too. Previous students and teachers going their own way and progressing forward.
I understand there are different trees of life for different styles relating to Kenpo. I respect peoples trees from which they sprang.
But, I do feel that if the constant bickering and name calling was to seece the progress would be that much better.
With the exchange of techniques and thoughts that are out there. Kenpo could become something more incredible in the future then it ever was now.
Just my thought on the question of the future of Kenpo
Chicago Green
Dragon :asian:
I understand there are different trees of life for different styles relating to Kenpo. I respect peoples trees from which they sprang.
But, I do feel that if the constant bickering and name calling was to seece the progress would be that much better.
With the exchange of techniques and thoughts that are out there. Kenpo could become something more incredible in the future then it ever was now.
Just my thought on the question of the future of Kenpo
Chicago Green
Dragon :asian:
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
I think the "bickering and politics that you talk about is over exaggerated. Sure on the forums it is present (and like you say will always be there) but it is no worse than it was. In fact, when several of us get together ~ there is a lot of positive exchange going on .... I see it as getting better as the upper ranks exchange ideas thru camps and seminars more as time moves on.
The Future looks bright to me.
:asian:
K
Kroy
Guest
I stand corrected:asian:
I
Iron Dog
Guest
I don't know.... I think the future will require Kenpo to endure a few more "problems". But the art is bigger than the person in some respects since it comes in the form of thoughts, which become movements and ideas. Yet, the agendas of some will not let it bloom into each practitioner (unless they train specifically with them) and there can be one of the problems. That aside, the bulk of of those that pass it on (Black Belts) are genuine men and women and want the best for the system. When the Seniors go, new Seniors will take their place and the cream will rise to the top. To endure, one must be positive...which is hard sometimes..
I.D.:yinyang:
I.D.:yinyang:
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
Like I always say................ "You can lead a horse to water........... but you can't smear cake on his lips"!!!
:asian:
molson
Orange Belt
quote: Originally posted by Iron Dog
When the Seniors go, new Seniors will take their place and "the cream will rise to the top". I.D.
True. But what if every organization splits when their senior is gone. Is there a potential for more splits and new associations and systems. There probably are around 100 now and could end up to be 1000. Can it get too watered down. With that said, I know the 4 0r 5 true associations will still be there.
When the Seniors go, new Seniors will take their place and "the cream will rise to the top". I.D.
True. But what if every organization splits when their senior is gone. Is there a potential for more splits and new associations and systems. There probably are around 100 now and could end up to be 1000. Can it get too watered down. With that said, I know the 4 0r 5 true associations will still be there.
True2Kenpo
Purple Belt
Fellow Kenpoists,
I would have to agree with Mr. C... I believe there are a lot of great instructors beyond the bounds of the IKKA. Each in their own right are passing Kenpo on into a new and bright future.
Of course over time I feel new associations will emerge and some will dissolve, but Kenpo will live on no matter. Many people mention that Kenpo will become watered down, however I feel just the opposite. I think Kenpo will become even more sophisticated through instructors that preserve Mr. Parker's teachings and push on such as Mr. C, Mr. Planas, Mr. Whitson, Mr. Mills, and then list goes on and on...
Politics will always exist. But unity will always exist as well. We all love our journey in Kenpo and I feel if it came down to it, we would all put opinions aside and stand for each other. I know I would!
In anycase, I wish everyone the very best. Good journey!
Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh
I would have to agree with Mr. C... I believe there are a lot of great instructors beyond the bounds of the IKKA. Each in their own right are passing Kenpo on into a new and bright future.
Of course over time I feel new associations will emerge and some will dissolve, but Kenpo will live on no matter. Many people mention that Kenpo will become watered down, however I feel just the opposite. I think Kenpo will become even more sophisticated through instructors that preserve Mr. Parker's teachings and push on such as Mr. C, Mr. Planas, Mr. Whitson, Mr. Mills, and then list goes on and on...
Politics will always exist. But unity will always exist as well. We all love our journey in Kenpo and I feel if it came down to it, we would all put opinions aside and stand for each other. I know I would!
In anycase, I wish everyone the very best. Good journey!
Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh
W
warriorsage
Guest
I also agree with the Golden One on this. The bad blood is out there for sure, but on the internet it seems like it is everywhere, running rampant.
I hate to dispell the myths, BUT I've worked out with quite a few different kenpo students and instructors from various "camps" and for the most part I've been welcomed and treated with respect. No pressure to convert. Not too much trash talking of others, and usually when it was done, it was more in the spirit of making my kenpo better: "well so-and-so does the technique like this, which is OK, but if you really look at it, you can see such-and-such isn't optimally efficient, etc."
I hate to dispell the myths, BUT I've worked out with quite a few different kenpo students and instructors from various "camps" and for the most part I've been welcomed and treated with respect. No pressure to convert. Not too much trash talking of others, and usually when it was done, it was more in the spirit of making my kenpo better: "well so-and-so does the technique like this, which is OK, but if you really look at it, you can see such-and-such isn't optimally efficient, etc."
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