Weapon Techniques

[Robbo]

Is raining lance restabbing your opponent or just continueing his motion through to a new target of your designation? I know it's a question of semantics but it seems to me to be a vital point.

Rob

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Robbo
Is raining lance restabbing your opponent or just continueing his motion through to a new target of your designation? I know it's a question of semantics but it seems to me to be a vital point.

I would think for it to be "restabbing" you would have to have stab the first time...........

It is "redirecting" the initial attack back into the opponent. (self inflected wound) lol

The targets are limited in this case but certainly you or your body is not on the list!!

:asian:

 

[Blindside]

Kenpo Yahoo postedo the gun defenses take into account guns like the semi-auto pistol which has become so popular over the last couple of decades (I don't know, that's why I'm asking)? Several of the techniques have you grabbing the gun to control it. If the gun were a six-shooter, you would be able to fire one round only (because the cylinder wouldn't turn to load the next shot), but with a semi-auto you could fire the entire clip (unless you got a finger stuck in the slide. Either way your going to get burned by the gas (although comparitively it's a small price to pay). Is there a better way to deal with this situation?

Well the semi-auto pistol has been popular for more than a few decades....

Anyway, I'm not saying this is what AK advocates since I'm not an AK guy, but this is what we do. When we do grab the gun, we usually try to grab over the hammer (assuming its exposed.) If the gun hammer is down, and the gun is a double action, then you hold the hammer to the body of the gun. My experimentation shows that a good grip will prevent firing. If the gun is cocked (Single action) then when you grab the hammer you try to seperate the hammer from the body of the gun, preferably by sticking a body part in the way (like the web of your hand). This is particularly difficult, you can also drop your palm over the top of the hammer hope that the pressure of your hand keeps the hammer from dropping. With revolvers you can also try to grasp the cylinder so that it won't rotate with relation to the body of the gun. You can also try sticking a finger behind the trigger of the gun so the trigger cannot depress (this will probably get your finger broken, but its better than nothing).

I'm not saying that these strategies are easy or foolproof, they are options to add into your techniques. I should also say that you must practice these on real guns, or good facsimilies to feel how these work. Try all of these techniques on a real weapon to see how the mechanics work.

Another good drill is to practice gun disarms, while someone else is randomly firing blanks nearby. It tends to break your concentration, see "Glory" for an example. It helps if you live in BFE or your studio doesn't have any nervous neighbors.

Good luck,

Lamont

 

[Nightingale]

just FYI, you can get disappearing ink at toy stores. I think its called Zappit or something like that. Comes in red or blue. it stays visible for about five or ten minutes, and disappears as it dries, leaving white uniforms still white.

 

[Kalicombat]

Originally posted by Chronuss




""well, for starters, rule number one when being confronted with someone with a knife: you ARE going to get cut, but you can choose where it is. I'd rather get cut on my forearm than my noggin', why?, simply because there are NO vital nerves in the forearem. it is simply muscle. ""


It has been my experience that rule number one is not always true. Just because a person has a blade does not mean he knows how to use it. Also, going into any knife confrontation with the expectation of getting cut is too self-defeating for me. It should be understood that it may happen, and be prepared for it if it does, but dont accept that it is inevitable.

Also, if you are going to sacrifice your forearm, do so with the outside of your forearm, not the inside. If the inside is severed, you are unable to make a fist, and your weapon just became a limp noodle, if the outside is severed, your fist cant open, and you still have your weapon. Also, the veins are closer to the surface on the inside of the forearm then the outside.

One other point I'd like to make is that an overhead strike with an icepick grip is a very slow attack, but it is not always easy to defend against because the intitial movemtent is a downward thrusting, or puncturing attack, but in the right hands, can become a draw cut/slash attack. Many defenses against this type of attack I have seen are just plain BS. One such defense is to stop the downward movement before the arm passes the apex with some type of upward block or an x block. If the attacker has any knowledge of the blade at all, he will simple drop his elbow and slice the forearm or X block instantaneously.

Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman

 

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



I would think for it to be "restabbing" you would have to have stab the first time...........

It is "redirecting" the initial attack back into the opponent. (self inflected wound) lol

The targets are limited in this case but certainly you or your body is not on the list!!

:asian:

very true, Mr. C, thanks for pointing that out, guess I was too happily typing. it is more of a redirection of the knife blade...yes...redirecting right into the oppenent's right quad...hehe.

 

[Seig]

A couple of points here......

It has been my experience that rule number one is not always true.

To a very experienced practioner, this is true. to an experienced one...Well, I teach them that they ARE going to get cut, once they have accepted the fact, it seems to hace lessened the fear they have of the attack. I have had students come back and say, they were not afraid of an attack because they knew they were going to get cut, and then they wound up not geting so.

Also, if you are going to sacrifice your forearm, do so with the outside of your forearm, not the inside. If the inside is severed, you are unable to make a fist, and your weapon just became a limp noodle, if the outside is severed, your fist cant open, and you still have your weapon. Also, the veins are closer to the surface on the inside of the forearm then the outside.

Good point. He was referring to the outside of the forearm. I'm not sure if I have made that clear to my students ornot, but I will make sure Ihave explained it al ittle more thoroughly.

It is "redirecting" the initial attack back into the opponent. (self inflected wound)

When i teach Raining Lance, I make sure that when they do the redirect that they bury the knife in the femur. I do this by not only have them doing the redirect but adding some force of their own.

:asian:

 

[FUZZYJ692000]

Originally posted by Stick Dummy

Chronuss,


Talk to me next time I stumble into your dojo - Monday7/08???

I'm sure that Seig knows where this one is going to leade, and it'll be more fun than the "Blue Ball" drill - PROMISE


now where did I put that soothing whale music???????

Oh no, Pete, I don't think I can take another night with those Blue balls. The 1st time with the front kicks was all fine and dandy after that it took me 2 days for my legs to de-Jello themselves. :waah:

That's okay. It was different and fun though. Looking forward to what new and weird things you can come up with next.

Jani

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by FUZZYJ692000





That's okay. It was different and fun though. Looking forward to what new and weird things you can come up with next.

Jani

Now you've done it, I wash my hands of the consequences:EG:

 

[Sigung86]

Personally, and having been there ... I can't imagine that I would want to confront a knife attack empty-handed, if there were a chair or something "large" nearby. In lieu of something to can the crap out of the attacker with (the theoretical chair), I would do all that I could to beat a hasty retreat. No credit card, and most certainly, no job is worth that much... But then that's why I study Kenpo, I am a devout coward, and the idea of presenting any part of my body to be cut is "yucky"! :lol:

No matter which side of your arm you get cut on, if it is deep enough, you are in what we on Farmer Mountain call "The deep weeds"! You are also dealing with the psychological state of seeing blood all over the place, and realizing that it is yours ... Most especially, if you are dealing with an experienced or very lucky inexperienced knife fighter.

Having said all that, let me add, that unless you practice your knife and gun disarms and defenses on a really seriously regular basis, you are, for all intent and purposes, spitting in the wind, if the real thing comes along.

Not trying to poohpooh what anyone has said here, there have been some eloquent statements on the requirements and the techniques. I am simply injecting a reality check for us more chicken-hearted types in this thread.

Dan

 

[Chronuss]

Originally posted by Kalicombat



It has been my experience that rule number one is not always true. Just because a person has a blade does not mean he knows how to use it. Also, going into any knife confrontation with the expectation of getting cut is too self-defeating for me. It should be understood that it may happen, and be prepared for it if it does, but dont accept that it is inevitable.

Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman [/B]

said very eloquently and exactly what I was thinking, I just get into typing sometimes and don't express all my thoughts. thank you for correcting me. it is self-defeating having the expectation to be cut, but it is always possible, simply accepting the fact that you could be cut in a confrontation with a blade is part of defending against it.

 

[Self_Destruct]

Originally posted by Kalicombat


It has been my experience that rule number one is not always true. Just because a person has a blade does not mean he knows how to use it. Also, going into any knife confrontation with the expectation of getting cut is too self-defeating for me. It should be understood that it may happen, and be prepared for it if it does, but dont accept that it is inevitable.

Also, if you are going to sacrifice your forearm, do so with the outside of your forearm, not the inside. If the inside is severed, you are unable to make a fist, and your weapon just became a limp noodle, if the outside is severed, your fist cant open, and you still have your weapon. Also, the veins are closer to the surface on the inside of the forearm then the outside.

One other point I'd like to make is that an overhead strike with an icepick grip is a very slow attack, but it is not always easy to defend against because the intitial movemtent is a downward thrusting, or puncturing attack, but in the right hands, can become a draw cut/slash attack. Many defenses against this type of attack I have seen are just plain BS. One such defense is to stop the downward movement before the arm passes the apex with some type of upward block or an x block. If the attacker has any knowledge of the blade at all, he will simple drop his elbow and slice the forearm or X block instantaneously.

Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman [/B]

All I can say to that is RIGHT ON! It sounds like you've had some training in Kenpo knife fighting. I couldn't agree more with the mentallity aspect. If you've already taken the mindset of getting cut instead of cutting at the onset of engagement then that's what is most likely to happen. Just as you wouldn't have the mindset of getting hit in an unarmed situation...instead you would have the mindset of hitting. Not doing so would give the enemy a tactical advantage before it even started.

Who do you study with? Just curious.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Folks:

I don't know if this'll help, and I've only had a gun pointed at me a couple times (no shots fired), and nobody's come after me with a real knife in more than twenty years, but I did have a couple thoughts.

First off, I was taught that the first rule of fighting someone who's got a knife is this: don't fight someone who's got a knife. Are you crazy? Avoid such situations; run away; talk your way out; give them your money, your pants, your car, but don't fight someone who's got a knife. If necessary, run them over. Shoot them. Hit them with a chair, a staff--but fighting. Nope. You could get hoit. Then, Rule 2 is: if you violate Rule 1, you're going to get cut. You can only decide how bad you're going to get cut.

Second thing is, I note that all the kenpo knife and gun techniques are designed to work againsst somebody who really doesn't know what they're doing. Raining Lance: they overcommit to the classic Norman Bates attack. (On the other hand, have you seen the MaxEx video and x-ray of the guy with the 11-inch bowie running from the top of his skull to his lower jaw?) Thrusting Lance: they fall for the invitation to aim at the stomach, and overcommit. Piercing Lance: they go for the hands framing up high, and inviting a high stab. The only technique, come to think of it, that looks different is Entwined Lance...

Third point I'd like to note is that if you look at Capturing the Rod, particularly after working on the execution of that technique in Long Form 6, the slide on top of a semi-auto is accounted for by the right hand--or, with a revolver, the theory is that that same hand pincches down on the cylinder while the left parry moves the barrel out of line with Robert's precious vital organs.

But this returns me to the start; on Larry Tatum's tapes, everything with guns starts with noting that you do NOT want to have to need these techniques--and their execution is only for a desperate moment. Which is why he argues for then executing the technique with real ferocity.

By the way, I was interested to see that nobody advocated kicking a knife or gun away. back when I first worked in hospitaals, I saw a guy who'd tried it. he was in for an angiogram, because he didn't have any pulses in his lower leg and foot, and they wanted to see if they could repair what got ripped when the knife went completely through his calf from side to side--musta tried a crescent, or a bad roundhouse...

Nice discussion, ladies and germs. Thank you.

 

[kenpo3631]

It is my understanding that the gun and knife techniques in Parker Kenpo are the same techniques. Any validity to that?

Personally I prefer to use some Philipino concepts with my Kenpo knife techniques.

Parker Kenpo is primarily an empty handed system. The Philipino systems are weapons oriented right from the beginning. Tried and proven techniques using sound principles not to mention they flow well with Kenpo.

:asian:

 

[Seig]

First off, I was taught that the first rule of fighting someone who's got a knife is this: don't fight someone who's got a knife. Are you crazy? Avoid such situations; run away; talk your way out; give them your money, your pants, your car, but don't fight someone who's got a knife. If necessary, run them over. Shoot them. Hit them with a chair, a staff--but fighting. Nope. You could get hoit. Then, Rule 2 is: if you violate Rule 1, you're going to get cut. You can only decide how bad you're going to get cut.

That is exactly what I teach my students.
As far as the Filipino, from what I understand, the evolution of FMA and Kenpo is reversed, in Kenpo, you start with empty hand and work your way up to weapons; in FMA, you start with weapons and work your way up to empty hand.

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

I have a feeling this will be an unpopular post but here goes. I have been in AK for many years ,I have seen the advanced weapons concepts of AK. All of the techs. and I have seen and worked with forms seven and eight. The concepts that are being taught do not even come close to touching what the filipino systems do when it comes to weapons. I love AK but a lot of people are being misled when it comes to what they think they are going to be able to accompolish. I have seen a lot of seniors in AK work the weapons and none of it comes close to what I have seen average students of the flipino arts do. American Kenpo is great, it is my base art, but if you want to compliment you empty hands with weapons, study a good filipino system, you will not be dissapointed. As for the common argument that a weapon is merely an extension of your hand, well that is only partially true.
I don't understand why people keep trying to invent the wheel.
Even in form 6 there are many things that go against basic weapons rules.

 

[Kenpo Wolf]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

By the way, I was interested to see that nobody advocated kicking a knife or gun away. back when I first worked in hospitaals, I saw a guy who'd tried it. he was in for an angiogram, because he didn't have any pulses in his lower leg and foot, and they wanted to see if they could repair what got ripped when the knife went completely through his calf from side to side--musta tried a crescent, or a bad roundhouse...

We aint as dumb as we look. Actually, I know of a tkd stylist who tried to kick a box cutter out of somebody's hand and failed miserabily. Now his right leg is so badly damaged that he had to go through rehabilitation(spl) and he still can't support his body on it for very long, not to mention that he's not such a fancy kicker any more. Eventually he did get back into the arts with kenpo.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Seig

As far as the Filipino, from what I understand, the evolution of FMA and Kenpo is reversed, in Kenpo, you start with empty hand and work your way up to weapons; in FMA, you start with weapons and work your way up to empty hand.

Not all FMA are like that but by and large, yes. I put a stick in my students' hands first, and work to empty hand (and knife) later. The concept however is "it's all the same", that is, what we do with the stick translates to other scenarios.

 

[Seig]

Stick Dummy has been introducing me to FMA and I have been enjoying it. I see how easily the two arts compliment one another.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Dear Eternalwhitebelt:

Sorry, but I ain't being misled. I never expected that kenpo would make me invulnerable, nor was it ever suggested in my training that it would.

More importantly, could you explain--with precise examples--precisely what it is that you find so much more comprehensive and developed in the Filipino knife strategies, tactics and techniques? Could you contrast this to the Form 7 and Form 8 material?

I don't mean to merely disagree--I'm certainly not claiming any expertise with weapons--but I should very much like to see details.

Let me repeat: all I'm asking for is precise detail. I've no idea whether you're right or not, and I've no intention of running out to study another art: I'd just like to read some precise explanations of just what you're talking about.

Thank you, in advance, for your time.