Weapon of Choice...Knife?

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Thats a little strange out of context. I was refering to the ability of someone to backup and avoid being cut. You can back up and put space between you and not get cut.

Yes, you can back up to create space in an attempt to avoid a cut...to a point.

The problem is that your attacker will be able to charge forward faster than you can back up. Furthermore, the knife wielder only needs to cover just enough distance for the blade to touch flesh, unlike an unarmed assailant who not only needs to ensure that his weapons can reach you, but that they can penetrate to do enough damage.

Cthulhu

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Yes, you can back up to create space in an attempt to avoid a cut...to a point.

The problem is that your attacker will be able to charge forward faster than you can back up. Furthermore, the knife wielder only needs to cover just enough distance for the blade to touch flesh, unlike an unarmed assailant who not only needs to ensure that his weapons can reach you, but that they can penetrate to do enough damage.

Cthulhu

Very true, however, backwards is not the only way you can yield. I'm not trying to say its not riscky, however, you can yield in many directions to avoid getting cut, or hit. Backing up is good, then if the opponent is "charging in" you can also move to the side, and almost even behind the attacker. It isn't a "sure thing" so no one think I'm saying that, but it is possible to do.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

It never ceases to amaze me how many people firmly believe that there is not possible defense against a knife. There are other threads where this is very prominent as well.
So I thought I would do some research on it....
If it is true that there is no defense against a knife, these must be illegitimate. I don't have personal experience with all these, but a few I do.

http://www.turtlepress.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=256

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0897500504/qid=1073058653/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-4587285-5726307?v=glance&s=books

http://www.itatkd.com/v-132.html

http://www.dvdsportszone.com/product_info.php?products_id=379&osCsid=3ce2d1ac3066e13a2eb4261303f06b9d

http://www.fastknife.com/Martial_Arts_Info/article4.htm

If any of these are legitamate, then there is afterall, a possible action that can successfully protect against a knife attack.

7sm

 

[Cruentus]

1. Once again, I have not misquoted you. When I have said things like “so what you are saying is this….”, or “you are saying….” , I am paraphrasing what you have said in my own words to better understand your points. This is common to any good conversation, debate, or argument. Now, if I have misunderstood what you have said, then you can say something like “No you misunderstood me. I am not saying bla bla bla, as you have thought. I am trying to say blee bla blee.” If I have misunderstood what you have said on certain points, then say so, and re-explain your position. But, don’t say I “misquoted you.” I haven’t.

2. You confuse a lot of what I say with the idea that I am “being arrogant,” or that this is somehow about me “being beaten” or “being undefeated in a fight.” This debate is not about my fighting or teaching skills. If your sifu and sifu’s sifu is as qualified as you say, I am sure that they have more knowledge then I do. This isn’t a “my art can beat your art” or “my teacher can beat your teacher” conversation. I don’t think that you are turning it into this, but I think that you think that I am trying to make it a my art against yours type of argument. I am not.

I’m having to repeat myself here, but all I am doing is illustrating the dangers of the knife. That’s all. This has nothing to do with my skill.

3. It seems as if you have been retracting a lot of what you have said in the beginning. You said

I was the first to say your at an extreme disadvantage going against a knife.

But the thing is, you weren’t. Your first comment was this:

The attackers durin the 9/11 attacks were brandishing "boxcutters" I would imagine similar to the ones mentioned above. How much damage could you inflict with one of those before someone takes you down. Its not like you could even really hit any main arteries or anything with the small blade. What would make a whole plane full of people sit in thier seats and not try to take them down if all they had were those knives?
I know the one plane did "revolt" but I just dont see anyone doing any amount of damage to me with one of those before I've broken a knee or two, am I being optomistic? I don't think so.

Your first quote, and your many back-up comments is hardly condusive of admitting that you are at an extreme disadvantage against a knife attacker. If you feel that you are at a disadvantage, then great…we agree. Problem is, that’s not what you said at first, and you have yet to retract your statements that appear to contradict what you are now saying.

So, I think that is a big part of why we are argueing, and why I have a hard time letting it go. You have said some things that may have been said in haste, or that may have been wrong. This is not a problem, we all do that from time to time. The problem occurs when you refuse to retract your statement for fear of being “wrong.” That’s what I see happening. You didn’t say that the knife was dangerous at first. You instead expressed that you didn’t see how it could do much damage before you took your opponent out, so to speak. You may have miscommunicated what you were trying to say, but instead of rephrasing or retracting what you said, you have been struggling to back up your statements. It would be much easier for us to communicate if you would just say that “hey maybe I miscommunicated what I was trying to say….here is what I am really saying.”

4. Since you seem to have changed your position regarding certain things, Lets address what we agree on. We agree on the idea that the knife is a dangerous tool. We agree that the knife attacker is at an advantage because of the knife. We both believe that empty hand vs. knife is not impossible, although it might be difficult.

Now lets examine where we disagree: You believe that empty hand knife defense is much more of a possibility then I do. You feel that you would be better off not using a weapon at all against a knife, where I believe that NO person should go into a knife fight empty handed unless they have too.

I guess we can agree to disagree and move on. I have given you some sources that express that empty hand vs. knife is never a good idea. I urge you to take a look at them. If you have any sources that express the opposite that I can look at, post them here, and I would be happy to take a look.

Respectfully,

PAUL
:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
It never ceases to amaze me how many people firmly believe that there is not possible defense against a knife. There are other threads where this is very prominent as well.
So I thought I would do some research on it....
If it is true that there is no defense against a knife, these must be illegitimate. I don't have personal experience with all these, but a few I do.

http://www.turtlepress.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=256

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0897500504/qid=1073058653/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-4587285-5726307?v=glance&s=books

http://www.itatkd.com/v-132.html

http://www.dvdsportszone.com/product_info.php?products_id=379&osCsid=3ce2d1ac3066e13a2eb4261303f06b9d

http://www.fastknife.com/Martial_Arts_Info/article4.htm

If any of these are legitamate, then there is afterall, a possible action that can successfully protect against a knife attack.

7sm

Sorry...you posted your sources before I posted. You beat me to the punch!

I just wanted to reinerate that I don't believe that empty hand vs. knife defense is an impossability. I know that some people say that, but I feel that is irrational. I just think that it is an IMPROBABILITY (not probable that you'll get out of the circumstance unscathed), no matter what you train in, an no matter how experienced you are.

People teach empty hand vs. knife and that doesn't make them illigitamite; it's WHAT and HOW they are teaching it that could make or break their legitamicy. I LOVE traininig empty hand vs. knife myself. But, I realize that getting out of an empty hand vs. knife situation un-damaged is not a probable thing. It's having at least that much wisdom that will hopefully keep me alive.

Anyways, thanks for the sources. I'll take a look at them and lend my thoughts.

:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

O.K....I've looked at your sources, and I'll try to be "nice" here.

I'll state again, that just because people teach empty hand vs. knife, that doesn't mean that they (the teachers) believe that going into a knife fight empty handed is a good idea. If you are forced into a circumstance where you are weaponless against a knife, then you have to know how to deal with it.

There are some who are saying that empty hand vs. knife is an impossability. You are right, credable instructors teaching empty hand vs. knife would shoot that arguement down.

I, and many of the people here, however, are not saying that defending yourself against a knife is impossible. We are just saying that it is improbable that you'll come out unscathed, and very dangerous.

You've expressed that you would rather go into a knife fight empty handed because that is what you train the most in. I have expressed that going into a knife fight empty handed is NEVER a good idea, regardless of how you train. The sources I have brought forth I have personally viewed, and I can vouch that they support what I am saying. Many of the sources that you put forth may slam down the idea that knife defense is "impossible," but they actually support what I am saying as well (If possable, don't go into a knife fight empty handed; know the Krav Maga one supports this, at least).

Now, if you have an external source that we can view that supports your view; expressing that empty hand vs. knife could be prefered over grabbing a weapon yourself if that is what you are used to training in, I would be happy to look it over.

Thanks,

PAUL :asian:

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
2. You confuse a lot of what I say with the idea that I am “being arrogant,” or that this is somehow about me “being beaten” or “being undefeated in a fight.” This debate is not about my fighting or teaching skills. If your sifu and sifu’s sifu is as qualified as you say, I am sure that they have more knowledge then I do. This isn’t a “my art can beat your art” or “my teacher can beat your teacher” conversation. I don’t think that you are turning it into this, but I think that you think that I am trying to make it a my art against yours type of argument. I am not.

This seems a little contradictory to statements such as....

Originally posted by PAUL
Hell, if its all true, I'd quite my style(s) and move to Texas to train.

Originally posted by PAUL
As to "crushing someones attack"...let me say that I am 5'7 1/2", yet I weight 230 (I am cutting wieght though right now, so I'll probably weigh 215 in a few months); I squat over 600lbs. and bench around 400....and thats reps. I have been told that I hit like a "ton of bricks" by professional fighters.

Originally posted by PAUL
Give me 15 minutes to train anyone, and we'll see the outcome against you, or the highest ranking priest from fuk m upp temple. You'll be suprised to find the outcome. I am not saying that your instructors would be helpless, but I am saying that I believe that you'll be suprised that their standard of error...in other words I'll bet that at least 50% of the time your "Masters" are going to get diced by the untrained person in the process of their defense. Its just the way life is.

Originally posted by PAUL
I have said this before in othet threads, but I have a sort of "open challange" going here for anyone who is very confident with they're empty hand vs. knife skills. Basically, you try to take MY knife away, and I try to attack and kill you. I give my personal garuntee that more times then not you will be cut several times and fatally...and I don't care who you are or what you've trained in.

It seems this is very much about your abilities.

Originally posted by PAUL
3. It seems as if you have been retracting a lot of what you have said in the beginning.

Actually Paul, I haven't retracted anything I have said. I stand behind what I said at the very beginning, and what I am saying now. They are in no way contradictory. Your confusing my statement about being able to defend against a knife as a declaration of its inadequacy. That's not what I'm saying, and never has been.
Yes, I do think the boxcutter is an inadequate weapon of choice for a bladed weapon, and if your saying you would choose it over any of your knifes you train with, you would be lying and all of us know it.

Originally posted by PAUL
So, I think that is a big part of why we are argueing, and why I have a hard time letting it go. You have said some things that may have been said in haste, or that may have been wrong. This is not a problem, we all do that from time to time. The problem occurs when you refuse to retract your statement for fear of being “wrong.” That’s what I see happening. You didn’t say that the knife was dangerous at first. You instead expressed that you didn’t see how it could do much damage before you took your opponent out, so to speak. You may have miscommunicated what you were trying to say, but instead of rephrasing or retracting what you said, you have been struggling to back up your statements. It would be much easier for us to communicate if you would just say that “hey maybe I miscommunicated what I was trying to say….here is what I am really saying.”

Ok, here is an example of when I feel you misquoted me, however, I will now say, I meant blee blee blee.
I never said the knife was not dangerous, your confusing my statements about a 1/2" boxcutter, with those of a fighting knife. Two different situations if you ask me. Neither of them being not dangerous Paul, both dangerous, both different.
I don't feel I have been struggling at all to "back up" anything, I just posted several sources for self defense against a knife, check them out.

Originally posted by PAUL
4. Since you seem to have changed your position regarding certain things, Lets address what we agree on. We agree on the idea that the knife is a dangerous tool. We agree that the knife attacker is at an advantage because of the knife. We both believe that empty hand vs. knife is not impossible, although it might be difficult.

Now lets examine where we disagree: You believe that empty hand knife defense is much more of a possibility then I do. You feel that you would be better off not using a weapon at all against a knife, where I believe that NO person should go into a knife fight empty handed unless they have too.

I guess we can agree to disagree and move on. I have given you some sources that express that empty hand vs. knife is never a good idea. I urge you to take a look at them. If you have any sources that express the opposite that I can look at, post them here, and I would be happy to take a look.

Once again Paul, I haven't changed my position on anything. I have posted trying to let you see I'm not trying to say that there is no danger, or that you should get into any type of altercation, but that is not changing my views, that is explaining them more precisly.
You have changed your statements however because you originally said it was impossible to defend agaisnt a knife, even posting links to articles that supported your beliefs, now your saying its possible just not probable.

Your statemtent...

Originally posted by PAUL
I believe that NO person should go into a knife fight empty handed unless they have too.

Is exactly what I have been saying this entire thread and the last. Your not saying anything I haven't allready said. You seem to think I am encouraging a knife fight, I'm saying run as fast as you can ie...

Originally posted by 7starmantis
My first reaction is to run, or cry like a little baby girl and maybe not even have to fight.

I'm not saying get into an altercation unless completely neccesary. I'm just saying if that occurs, and I'm empty handed, I would still be able to defend myself, your saying I couldn't. For example....

Originally posted by PAUL
But for you, I would be happy to TAKE THE CHALLANGE EVEN FURTHER. Since it is said that I have considerable training with the knife, its almost not fair to do the challange with me. So, I would propose that we could even do it with a determined attacker with little or no martial arts experience.

This is where are disagreement and argument is coming from, because the only thing we truly disagree on is 1) it is extremely possible to defend yourself agaisnt a knife empty handed. 2) I'm a lyer and nothing I say can be believed.

Sources posted.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

This is where the argument is getting out of hand.
I'm not suggesting going into a knife fight empty handed. I'm suggesting not going into a knife fight.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
But, I realize that getting out of an empty hand vs. knife situation un-damaged is not a probable thing. It's having at least that much wisdom that will hopefully keep me alive.

Why is this an issue, we agree here.

7sm

 

[Cruentus]

1. I can see how you would have thought that I was trying to fluff my abilities. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I had stated certain things about my abilities and experiences because my abilities and experience is my point of reference for my beliefs. However, my point wasn't "look how sweet I am." My point was "look how dangerous the knife is".

2. I believe you have either changed your views mid-thread, or at the very least miss-stated your views in the beginning. You obviously disagree. Moving on...

3. You'll never find a quote here that says I said that it is impossible to defend against a knife. Everything I have said points towards its improbability, nots its impossibility.

4.

Why is this an issue, we agree here.

I'm not suggesting going into a knife fight empty handed. I'm suggesting not going into a knife fight.

Really. Well thats news to me....good news! Great you agree with me! Glad we cleared at least that much up!

 

[Phil Elmore]

Weapons are tools, not magic wands. All have their advantages and disadvantages, their limitations and their ideal applications. Dealing with them is dangerous by definition, because they are weapons -- but it is not necessarily impossible.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
Really. Well thats news to me....good news! Great you agree with me! Glad we cleared at least that much up!

That was cleared up on the first thread....you must have missed it. I've been saying that all along.

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Weapons are tools, not magic wands. All have their advantages and disadvantages, their limitations and their ideal applications. Dealing with them is dangerous by definition, because they are weapons -- but it is not necessarily impossible.

Very well said. It is true, weapons are a great tool. I'm not trying to imply not using weapons. I train very hard in weapon usage, so if I made that point, I most certainly didn't mean to. I'm just trying to show that empty hand defense can be devistating as well. My statement about prefering empty hand is still what I believe, however I want to clarify it just a bit. In a real self defense situation my first reaction is to end the fight ASAP, if that includes running over the other guy in a car, that is the first thing I will do. My point, which maybe I didn't make clear, was that after the attempt to avoid a physical confrontation fails, empty hand is not so useless as sometimes believed.

7sm

 

[arnisador]

http://www.fastknife.com/Martial_Arts_Info/article4.htm

Notice, this is an exaggerated, karate-punhc-style step-through attack. The attacker ends with his weight set in a way that limits his mobility.

Look at the second picture. The guy with the knife stands there and gets hit. Someone with some training would do something. Looking at it, I might:

1.) Step forward on a 45 degree angle with my left foot, keeping low.

2.) Use my left hand to check his body (his right side) or his right arm.

3.) Cut across his belly with my knife.

Remember, we've all done the exercise where we hold our arm straight out, make a fist, top of the fist pointing straight up, and someone pushed it to the side. It's hard to push it to the outside but easy to push it to the inside. So, it'll be hard for him to stop me from moving my blade in the direction I've indicated.

I've made an assumption here about how he's blocking/holding the hand because I can't make it out--the picture is too dark. If he's doing something different than what I think, I might use my left hand to free my right hand while stepping off to the right on a 45 degree angle with my right foot. I might cut along his belly with a backhanded slash along the way, or stab to his side/back after the step.

Yes, it's possible to defend against the knife fighter who fights like he wasn't holding a knife. But it's exceedingly difficult to defend against the experienced knife fighter, or the committed knife fighter who charges in and is willing to take a hit in order to be able to give a stab.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Very true, however, backwards is not the only way you can yield. I'm not trying to say its not riscky, however, you can yield in many directions to avoid getting cut, or hit. Backing up is good, then if the opponent is "charging in" you can also move to the side, and almost even behind the attacker. It isn't a "sure thing" so no one think I'm saying that, but it is possible to do.

Then what I said wasn't out of context, and I never said it was impossible to do. The point is this...you WILL get hit/cut. Cuts, versus hits, are far more damaging.

As far as movement, you're preaching to the choir here. Alot of these guys do Filipino Martial Arts (Paul does), and they hit footwork from day one.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people firmly believe that there is not possible defense against a knife.

I don't believe it is impossible. Even the Sayoc guys train for that eventuality. It certainly isn't preferable.

Paul makes it clear that he thinks empty handed defense is possible, but not probable.

I'm not suggesting going into a knife fight empty handed. I'm suggesting not going into a knife fight.

As far as I'm concerned, I never "go" into a knife fight. If he draws a knife...I run...unless flight is impossible. If flight is impossible, I draw my gun/knife. If the latter, it is then, I suppose, a knife fight. I do not go into it willingly or with any relish, knowing that I'll most certainly get hurt. "The winner drips, the loser gushes." goes the saying.

Empty hand is the LAST option.

Now, 7 Star, you mentioned that you had aknowledged the lethal potential of a knife. But you diminish its potentiality by dissing a box cutter with a one inch blade. This is why I pointed out, very graphically, what a one inch blade can do. One doesn't need a foot long knife to kill or disable. The motor nerves of the arm are within easy reach of a one inch blade.

If you want to go empty handed into the night, do so. Paul will not, I suspect, nor will most of the FMA's on this board. But please understand that one of the reasons they don't advocate empty hand versus knife is that they TRAIN these techniques and actively spar with them.

This training makes one keenly aware of several things: The guy with the knife has a brutal advantage. It sucks to be the guy without the knife. The empty hand techniques are far more difficult to pull off than a simple slash that any thug can do. The simple slash causes more damage than any empty hand technique.

It was pointed out somewhat tongue in cheek that when surveyed gladiators opted not to go into the arena unarmed. They also, I wager, would have elected to wear the best armor available. There is a reason the sword and spear evolved into being the king and queen of battle for millenia (until the advent of the gun). Note that the Spartans didn't show up to Thermopolae empty handed. Neither did the Persians.

I most certainly didn't mean to. I'm just trying to show that empty hand defense can be devistating as well.

Few would argue that they can't be if lucky enough to pull off the techniques...but the argument here is who would have the odds of being more devastating, the knifer or the bare handed fighter. History and common sense show the latter would likely die pretty quickly, even if he had skill.

A blade in the hands of an untrained fighter with committed intent often makes up for any disparity of skill advantage the empty handed martial artist may possess.

This is safely testable using Lameco training "knives" or their home made equivalent). Try it sometime. Find a bunch of FMA's and ask to spar them empty handed versus their knife. Now, granted, you might be reluctant to whack them or lock them...but they can wear pads and protection I suppose. Locking them, I suspect, will be difficult...but they can always "tap" if you're lucky enough to get a hold on a limb.

There are plenty of Pekiti Tirsia guys down there in Texas. You might contact them and ask them if they'd be up to such an experiment.

If you lose, however, you'd be losing to trained knifers. You might be able to find some untrained thugs that would spar for a case of beer or something. Make sure they sign a waiver. I'd also make sure they had empty pockets when they walk in the door. Wouldn't you just hate for one of them to pull out a live blade and ruin the experiment? Or worse, validate it?

Kumasan wrote: I know I haven't posted here in ages, but I put something towards the bottom of page one that wasn't even glanced at. Please look at it and give me some validation.

Sorry, Chris...I don't see the post. I've looked twice. Are you sure you posted it to this thread?

Regards,


Steve

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by KumaSan
I know I haven't posted here in ages, but I put something towards the bottom of page one that wasn't even glanced at. Please look at it and give me some validation.

Thanks,
Chris

Sorry...I looked for your post too and couldn't find it.

 

[lhommedieu]

Page 3.

Back to the central question, I might as well drop by and add my two cents. For me, personally, it's part of the mindset. If the bad guy has a knife, then me drawing my blade is my mental declaration of the Cold War era nuclear war protocol. Mutually Assured Destruction. Either we both die, or only he dies. His life is forfeit.

Also, a lot of people around here probably (if not, forgive me) train the common FMA style defang the snake methods (or behead and disembowel the snake for the Sayoc people). While these techniques can be effective empty handed, they have a higher percentage of working with a weapon in hand.

With respect to your first point, I'm reminded of the saying "While you're in the kitchen, I'll be gettin' a sandwich." Knife fights are no fun, and, as 7sm has correctly pointed out, worth avoiding at all costs. (It's worth noting that 99% if us could probably avoid them 99% of the time, given a decent upbringing and some basic common sense; most of us are training for that 0.1% "unknown" factor.)

It's also interesting to note that Tuhun William McGrath writes in Inside Kung Fu that "after 24 years in the pekiti-tirsia system I would draw my gun over my knife should someone pull a knife on me with harmful intent."

This article is archived at http://www.cfw2.com/article.asp?s=cfw&content_id=3077. It also contains some very interesting insights with respect to the differences between Filipino "knife" techniques and the way that Filipino arts are taught in some schools in the United States. His main thesis is that small knife technique is different from large knife technique, i.e., the weapon dictates the technque. There's a lot of meat in this article.

With respect to your second point, I've been taught merely to cut what's closest. Often this is the weapon hand as it attacks, so the "defanging the snake" part is a riposte of sorts. Other times there may be targets of opportunity which are impossible to define ahead of time, but which footwork and good body mechanics offer a better chance at getting.

I want to offer the caveat here that I do not consider myself proficient at fighting with a knife: this is armchair theory.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Mutually Assured Destruction. Either we both die, or only he dies. His life is forfeit.

Excellent attitude...and very necessary.

"after 24 years in the pekiti-tirsia system I would draw my gun over my knife should someone pull a knife on me with harmful intent."

So would I, I think. My gun doesn't go everywhere with me, however. I'm not licensed to carry, say, in Delaware or Illinois. I can carry knives in those states (I think). McGrath makes a good point, however...you use the weapon that is more effective. This is a no brainer. It does, however, lead to discussions as to WHAT gun, WHAT caliber, WHAT ammunition, etc. That is best put in the gun portion of the forum.

McGrath's clearly understands the severity of the situation regarding knife on knife.

He also understands that not everything is a "one shot stop" which needs to be kept in mind. People can be stabbed in the heart and survive. They can have eighty percent of their bicep cut through and still have some use of the arm. Note I say "can" and not "will". We remember anomalies far better than we remember routine events.


Regards,


Steve

 

[KumaSan]

Thanks guys. And thanks for that link l'hommediu. I also agree with Tuhon McGrath. Unfortunately, I got rid of my pistol when I first moved overseas in '95, and haven't got around to acquiring another since I've been back. My pocket knife, on the other hand, is usually with me for utility purposes.

Another good link I came across which deals with realistic effects of wounds is here. It actually refers to fencing, but it has some good info nonetheless.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Interesting article...thanks Kumasan.


Regards,


Steve Scott

 

[Makalakumu]

I have had the pleasure of attending a long and intensive seminar on small knives with Tuhon McGrath. He played Conan the Barbarian music when we did our partner drills! That seminar was very good source of information and it was a real eye opener for me, who was just starting FMA at the time.