Effective Empty Hand vs Knife Strategies

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by MJS
That is something that IMO, should be ruled out. Why risk a move like you'd see in a Van Dam movie?? The Filipinos are some of the best knife fighters that I've seen. With all due respect, I'd have to say that the guy that you did this to didnt know how to fight with a knife very well.

Mike

Everybody gets distracted, even the best. I saw a video of Angel Cabales kicking the knife out of a student's hand. I agree that it is a very dangerous move though. Still, if possible...its much better then closing into stabbing range. If the opening presents itself, why not take advantage. I have trained this move a bit. If the knife is held low and loose (and upright!!!!) and your opponent hesitates, with a snap kick, it is possible to disarm your opponent. To testify to the amount of reality I expect out of this technique, though, I have to state that I have one out of ten patterns where I do this. The rest are more practical. And, one of the times I kicked the knife out, I caught it....now that was sweet.

 

[Matt Bernius]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
Origanally Posted by Paul.

#2. Do something right away that will disable the knife. An immediate disarm of the knife, an immediate interception and control of the knife hand, or an immediate attack resulting in the attacker being completely immobilized would be an example. The problem with this is you can't screw this up at all; if you do, your chances of being cut to pieces rise dramatically. Furthermore, this requires a committed attack; the less committed and telegraphed, the less likely your chances of pulling this off. And finally, to do this option requires an extreme amount of proficiency on your part.

Just a note on this one, often people assume that a disarm requires wrestling the knife (or other weapon) away from the person. I've seen self defense scenarios (in practice only) were a protracted wrestling battle starts while the defender attempts to get the knife away from the person. The problem with this is the longer the battle goes on, the greater number of times the knife will pass across one's body. Plus many manipluation disarms require a high degree of fine motor control.

The far better approach is to clear the blade (often letting the attacker clear it for you with a slash), check the arm so you understand where the weapon is in relation to you, and attack the body/head. It's what your attacker is least expecting and tends to have the most immediate and extreme effect on the person.

Just food for thought. Note, this is also a perferred method for close quarter gun defense.

- Matt

 

[Matt Bernius]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
Which is more dangerous, a large knife or a small knife? I would say that a large knife is going to give more reach yet the defense empty hand would be the same. Get inside and try to stop the knife. (way easier said then done!!!!) A small knife, on the other hand, there is nothing to grab and is generally going to be harder to attack in my opinion.

The longer is most likely more dangerous. As other posters have said it packs more power (penetration and slashing) due to it's length and weight. As small knife can be dangerous but is also more likely to be stopped by things like layers of clothing (like we wear up north here during winter).

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
Anyone have any advice on this situation since this is probably the most common knife defense situation we will see on the street. The long knives we train with, in my opinion, just aren't too practical.

In some ways your right. A lot of the knife defenses people work are based on knives that are of a certain length. All techniques don't work the same on weapons of different lenghts. A six inch tactical folder is much shorter in many cases than the Filipino "knife" that the technique was meant for. There is a difference in cutting ability and penetration power.

Tuhon Bill McGrath (of Pekiti Tirsia International) wrote a great article on this that's archived over at the Inside Kung Fu site (unfotunately the pictures are currently broken). You can find it by scrolling down this page:
http://www.cfw2.com/article.asp?s=cfw&content_id=3077

Hope this helps,

- Matt

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Matt Bernius
Just a note on this one, often people assume that a disarm requires wrestling the knife (or other weapon) away from the person. I've seen self defense scenarios (in practice only) were a protracted wrestling battle starts while the defender attempts to get the knife away from the person. The problem with this is the longer the battle goes on, the greater number of times the knife will pass across one's body. Plus many manipluation disarms require a high degree of fine motor control.

The far better approach is to clear the blade (often letting the attacker clear it for you with a slash), check the arm so you understand where the weapon is in relation to you, and attack the body/head. It's what your attacker is least expecting and tends to have the most immediate and extreme effect on the person.

Just food for thought. Note, this is also a perferred method for close quarter gun defense.

- Matt

Yes...but wrestling with a knife where its cutting you would not constitute doing an "immediate" action that will disable his ability to attack you with the knife. Wrestling would mean that you screwed up your disarm, and now you are forced to wrestle with him.

That being said, I'd rather wrestle with a trained knife fighter then try to pass and parry the knife hand of a trained knife fighter. If you try to pass and parry and strike rather then control the knife hand, I think you will find that the knife fight will last longer then you think, and that your chances of getting cut are much greater.

What you described was "#3", dodge and evade (or let them pass) and attack (or pick something up and attack, or run). This isn't a bad option, and many schools of thought train along these lines. I think that immediately disabling your attackers weapon (immediate disarm, picking up a gun and shooting him, or whatever) is a much better option if available then Option #3. However, I agree with you that the problem with option #2 is that although its the best choice outside of running, it does take a great amount of the right kind of training to be plausable if your without a weapon.

btw...I have read the article you put up before. I think its great. Someone recently put it up on this forum.

PAUL

 

[Matt Bernius]

Originally posted by PAUL
Yes...but wrestling with a knife where its cutting you would not constitute doing an "immediate" action that will disable his ability to attack you with the knife. Wrestling would mean that you screwed up your disarm, and now you are forced to wrestle with him.

I understand what your saying. I think though that many people think about a disarm in terms of manipulating the knife out of the person's hand. Those are possible. But at least from my training in the Filipino arts it's typically considered that disarms occur as a result of softening up the person attacking you (typically though hits to the head or body).

Originally posted by PAUL
That being said, I'd rather wrestle with a trained knife fighter then try to pass and parry the knife hand of a trained knife fighter. If you try to pass and parry and strike rather then control the knife hand, I think you will find that the knife fight will last longer then you think, and that your chances of getting cut are much greater.

I should note that the type of passing and parrying that I'm suggesting is along the lines of Filipino Knife Tapping (the type you find in Pekiti Tirsia and other systems). This is an extremely effective method of passing the knife out of harms way while encorporating striking. What's also important in all of this is to keep the weapon arm in some form of check so you understand it's relative positioning.

Additionally, research has shown that the majority of knife attacks begin with 1 - 3 slashes before a stab comes. All things considered, if I'm in this type of scenario (and I'm aware there is a knife in play) and it's a relatively small one I'm willing to play the odds and risk getting slashed with a tactical folder while wading in to disarm the person by striking to their center (or destroying the arm). I'm choosing that because slashes are (and note I say relatively here) relatively beneign on the scale knife damage (especially from a small blade). As such I'd most likely be falling back on either:

1. stopping the slash before it develops power

or

2. some form of tapping/passing with intergrated strikes

As the blade gets bigger, I'd probably change strategy if I can. BTW, my first stategy in all of this would be run or find an environmental weapon (if nothing else get my belt off as quickly as I could).

Also note that all of the above goes out the window with a trained knife person. But in that case chances are you won't know that they have a knife until you find it sticking out of you.

Originally posted by PAUL
btw...I have read the article you put up before. I think its great. Someone recently put it up on this forum.

PAUL

Thanks for the great discussion Paul. As for the article, I think it's required reading. I've gotten the chance to attend a Bill Mcgrath seminar. He's a great guy with lots of good material. I highly recommend training with him if you ever get the chance.

- Matt

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Matt Bernius

Thanks for the great discussion Paul. As for the article, I think it's required reading. I've gotten the chance to attend a Bill Mcgrath seminar. He's a great guy with lots of good material. I highly recommend training with him if you ever get the chance.

- Matt

I am Familiar with Tuhon McGrath and have done some training with some of his students (Jack Latorre is in a photo in the article somewhere, I think)

Thanks for the input!

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
What? HOW DARE YOU!!!!

Right now I'm taking the technique to new levels by bearing down with my abs, thereby spitting the broken blade out of my torso and back into the attacker's body. The hard part will be getting the knife to rotate to a point-towards-the-attacker position once I eject it.

I must add, too, that practice is difficult. One has to largely work from theory. But hey...Einstein was a theoretician, and not an experimental physicist. Look at the great things HE achieved.


Regards,


Steve

Actually, I have a better one. Maybe when the guy is slashing towards the face, catching it with the mouth might work??

:rofl: :rofl:

Mike

 

[Makalakumu]

If anyone has seen "Saving Private Ryan" then you may remember the knife fight between the american and the german where they end up grappling on the ground with the knife. Talk about a powerful scene! Does anyone train for this situation? If so, what do you do?

 

[Matt Bernius]

Originally posted by PAUL
I am Familiar with Tuhon McGrath and have done some training with some of his students (Jack Latorre is in a photo in the article somewhere, I think)

Thanks for the input!

Yup, Jack Latorre and Doug Marcaida are in one of the photo sequences. Both are excellent martial artists and people in general.

- Matt

 

[hardheadjarhead]

If anyone has seen "Saving Private Ryan" then you may remember the knife fight between the american and the german where they end up grappling on the ground with the knife. Talk about a powerful scene! Does anyone train for this situation? If so, what do you do?

Join the Navy, instead of the freakin' Airborne....


Regards,


Steve

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Actually, I have a better one. Maybe when the guy is slashing towards the face, catching it with the mouth might work??

Sure. But hardly a challenge. But then, one must not show off...modesty IS a hallmark of the martial arts, is it not?


Regards,


Steve

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Sure. But hardly a challenge. But then, one must not show off...modesty IS a hallmark of the martial arts, is it not?


Regards,


Steve

Of course!!:asian:

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

I think its hard to speak of specific techniques as strategy when faced with a situation such as this. Having set techniques to use in this situation will only cause you more harm, in my opinion. You will try to "force" said technique instead of allowing the person with the knife dictate what you will do. Forcing a technique is the best way to get hurt, or stabed in this instence.

7sm

 

[Makalakumu]

I believe you need a set of techniques to train common attack angles and then you need to train instinctive responses. Good training involves NO forced responses. The response happens without thinking. It's classical conditioning at it's best. Basically, its good to have someone take a practice knife and try and plant it, but its also good to call the shots to find out what works for your body. Do both.

 

[7starmantis]

Yes, yes, include situational training as well. I'm not saying avoid such training, but train in a way that if you are faced with a situation you wont revert to trying to force those few techniques you worked on. There may be circumstances that make your technique void, you need to be able to adapt.

7sm

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Matt Bernius
research has shown that the majority of knife attacks begin with 1 - 3 slashes before a stab comes.

Where is this from?

 

[Matt Bernius]

Originally posted by arnisador
Where is this from?

The Kali teacher I've worked with in the past has quoted that on numerous occaisions. I'll go back and ask him for a source (it now occurs to me that I should have done that a while ago).

- Matt

 

[7starmantis]

Getting back to the actual techniques, at least for stabbing type attacks, it is a good technique to learn to use the waist to enter into a break. As an attacker stabs straight towards the midsection, you twist the waist as you gain control of the knife hand. Holding the grab will allow your ribs to lock the attackers elbow and effectivly perfom a break on the attacking arm.

this does have to be quite fast and flawless to work however.

7sm

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I like the techniques wherein you gain control of the hand and then just crack the he-- out of the attacker's elbow with repeated elbows of your own...and I like the "return to sender" techniques.

I do these only if my Celtic Rib Lock fails.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Practice dodging to gain some distance. Then practice throwing things at the guy.

If you get the chance to run, take it.