Weapon of Choice...Knife?

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
Sevenstar...I'm not mad at all, even from the other thread. I just have a hard time buying some of what you say, thats all. I just hope your not mad at me for being honest!

I'm not mad at all, I think its good to have this kind of discussion. Its allot of fun, and very beneficial to all of us.

Originally posted by PAUL
Now...a short sharp weapon, such as a knife, is very dangerous. It takes very little training to become deadly with the weapon. The only thing that can bme more deadly with less training would be a gun. A knife to me is just below a gun. The reason is because a sharp knife, like a box cutter, hunting knife, folder, etc. is designed to cut....and it cuts meat particularly well. Hang up a slab of pork ribs or a beef cut, and take your blade and practice some slices and stabs. Watch how well even the smallest knife slices meat. You will slice meat into bits, cut through bone, etc. This is what it can do to the body, with very little effort.

Very true, a blade is not a joke, nothing to enter into inexperienced. I completely agree with how dangerous the knife is. However the amount of danger does not change its usage.

Originally posted by PAUL
Also, your empty hand sparring with an untrained person isn't the same as a knife person. An untrained person may never "hit" you, but I garuntee thay can touch you if they are determined. All a knife player has to do is touch you and you are cut. Even the smallest cuts on the hands and arms could be severing nerves, cutting arteries and viens, and hindering your ability to fight. Many times, your attacker (especially if they are terrorists who are determined to lose their lives to make a point) may be so out of their minds that they'll take your strikes, a bloody nose, a broken rib, etc., just to close in and cut you repeatedily. When you can't use your limbs as effectively because of cuts and blood loss, your attacker is able to move in and kill you.

First, I know this may be petty, but I do not practice sparring. I don't find a whole lot of use for it. I only train in realistic situations with uncooperative opponents. As far as the severing of nerves and arteries making you bleed out and no longer effective in a fight, that is where the fight is lost. If any fight unarmed or not takes more than a minute or so, you are already screwed. I'm not talking about using techniques they can take and continue fighting such as the bloody nose or broken rib. In a situation with a knife I'm going to be going for the "kill" shots if you will. Taking out a knee, throat shots, arm breaks, and the like. If you let a knife fight go over 4 or 5 moves its already been lost. The idea is, even if cut, continue your attack. In the mantis system, we don't stop our attack until the opponent is unable to retaliate. Ask around for some of the guys who have fought skilled mantis practitioners. Its a very straightforward system. If the winning technique involves cuts that keep you from using your limbs properly, you have allowed the fight to go too long already.

Originally posted by PAUL
A knife fighter doesn't have to be skilled. He doesn't have to be trained well. All he has to do is touch you. And...that's the problem with going against a knife fighter empty handed.

Very, very true! That is the problem with going against a knife.

Originally posted by PAUL
Now....do I teach empty hand vs. knife. Absolutly! However, I don't want my students (or myself) to have an aire of false confidence regarding a bladed weapon. This way they will exhaust every other option available before it gets to that point, not just decide "hey...I train empty hand...to I'll just go in to a knife fight empty handed because thats what I am used too!" If you are going empty hand vs. knife, you have to consider your self a walking dead person. You are giving your life up right then in their; its a last resort where you say "F-it!" and you go for broke using what you know. Yes...I teach empty hand vs. knife. But No....I don't teach false confidence against a knife wielding attacker.

I think we are still missing my point. I would exhaust every available option before getting into any type of fight, not just a knife fight. I don't mean to say that I think, "hey...I train empty hand...to I'll just go in to a knife fight empty handed because thats what I am used too!" What I'm saying is that if I have exhausted every option and the fight is occurring I'm going to go empty hand. I still don't see why me picking up a knife is going to change all this evidence of how dangerous a knife is.

I consider myself a dead person at the beginning of any true self defense situation. Maybe I'm a nut, but if I'm really fighting thats the way I look at it. Not only when the attacker is armed, but ANY self defense situation. That is why I feel comfortable in my empty hand defense.

Originally posted by PAUL
Now...on a personal note, I have survived a few edged attacks myself. Each time, I didn't have a weapon available to me, and I had to use my empty hand, and I survived unharmed. However, I am wise enough to realize that the Angels were watching me at that time....because if any slight dynamic in the situation would have changed I would have been dead or injured. It wasn't my vast amount of skill alone that got me out of it, and I won't falsly think that it was. I now carry a knife with me almost every where I go...because I don't want that one mistake to happend, costing me my life.

Thats a good way to look at it, I look at it that way with any type of fight. If I'm having to defend myself, I'm praying with each step I take that the angels watch over me. I am not trying to say I think nothing of an encounter, I'm just trying to say that I feel empty hand does have an equal amount of legitimacy against a knife. Does a knife have legitimacy against a knife? If so, then by simple logic, empty hand must as well.

7sm

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I believe there is credence to training empty hand vs knife, because I don't carry a weapon with me, and refuse to, even when I'm licensed as a concealed handgun carrier.

7sm

Why have a concealed carry permit if you refuse to carry? That makes no sense?

Also, most paramedics I know (my brother in law is also a paramedic) do carry some type of tool like a serrated spyderco or at least a multitool to cut seat belts and perform other tasks like prepairing dressings, etc. As a paramedic you don't carry? Although it goes beyond your martial arts beliefs, don't you need it for your job?

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
First, I know this may be petty, but I do not practice sparring. I don't find a whole lot of use for it. I only train in realistic situations with uncooperative opponents.

7sm [/B]

I believe the "sparring" you and Paul are referring to are to totally different things. "Sparring" in the FMA can range from anywhere to no contact to full contact with live weapons, not the typical tournament tag match. Its an eye opener. Can you describe what you mean by training in realistic situations with uncooperative opponents? That can be taken in different ways.

Thanks

Andy

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
This is what I'm confused about however. Why if the knife is so dangerous, does it lose a bit of impossibility when faced with another knife?

7sm

Yourself having a weapon doesn't make the attackers weapon LESS DANGEROUS. What it does is increase your potential at counter offense. A mental game could also happen, lets say the attacker just wants your wallet so he's waiving his knife around, you reach in your pocket pretending to get your wallet but pull out your own blade (I know, it would be better to just give him the wallet). The attacker is now faced with a decision. Is it worth it? He is now mentally put on the defensive. If I get close enough to stab him, he could stab me.

If we use a ratio of 1:1 for 2 empty hand people with equal ability. You put a knife in the first guys hand, for arguments purposes it is now 2:1 (odds are in the knife holders favor) put the knife in the others guys hand as well and the odds are now 2:2 or back to 1:1. I know you will have many points against this..."What if the empty handed person is more skilled, etc" but not knowing that, we have to go by a baseline.

Edgar Sulite had a cool saying. "in a knife fight, if Your better than the other guy you live and he dies. If he is better he lives and you die. If your both really good, you both die."

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by arnisandyz
Why have a concealed carry permit if you refuse to carry? That makes no sense?

Also, most paramedics I know (my brother in law is also a paramedic) do carry some type of tool like a serrated spyderco or at least a multitool to cut seat belts and perform other tasks like prepairing dressings, etc. As a paramedic you don't carry? Although it goes beyond your martial arts beliefs, don't you need it for your job?

I have a concealed handgun permit, so that if I'm ever going somewhere that I feel is dangerous enough to carry, I'm able to legally. It may make no sense to you, but its about having the option available to me if I choose to use it.

I dont currently work as a paramedic, although my liscensure is still current. I quite my job to go back to school to get my masters in Physical Therapy. My reason for not carrying is not any kind of belief, I just don't feel like having to worry about having a weapon on me. I don't let anyone have enough control over me to make me carry if I don't want to. Its a personal prefrence thing I guess. Working as a paramedic, I did carry tools with me, but thats a different story than carrying a concealed weapon for self defense.

Originally posted by arnisandyz
I believe the "sparring" you and Paul are referring to are to totally different things. "Sparring" in the FMA can range from anywhere to no contact to full contact with live weapons, not the typical tournament tag match. Its an eye opener. Can you describe what you mean by training in realistic situations with uncooperative opponents? That can be taken in different ways.

I'm not sure how to explain thins exactly, more than what is allready been said. The closest thing to "sparring" that I do is Chi Saou. My training against opponents is working \with different people who train in different systems. We train in specific situations and also do free training, where neither of us know what the other is going to do. Its hard to explain.

Originally posted by arnisandyz
Yourself having a weapon doesn't make the attackers weapon LESS DANGEROUS. What it does is increase your potential at counter offense. A mental game could also happen, lets say the attacker just wants your wallet so he's waiving his knife around, you reach in your pocket pretending to get your wallet but pull out your own blade (I know, it would be better to just give him the wallet). The attacker is now faced with a decision. Is it worth it? He is now mentally put on the defensive. If I get close enough to stab him, he could stab me.

If we use a ratio of 1:1 for 2 empty hand people with equal ability. You put a knife in the first guys hand, for arguments purposes it is now 2:1 (odds are in the knife holders favor) put the knife in the others guys hand as well and the odds are now 2:2 or back to 1:1. I know you will have many points against this..."What if the empty handed person is more skilled, etc" but not knowing that, we have to go by a baseline.

Edgar Sulite had a cool saying. "in a knife fight, if Your better than the other guy you live and he dies. If he is better he lives and you die. If your both really good, you both die."

What your saying then is that empty hand techniques are not dangerous or destructive enough to defend against a knife. Because the level of danger your own attack has, has no bearing on the level of attack your opponent has. I think this comes down to a lack of confidence in empty hand techniques. All that has been said about the dangers of facing a knife are still present whne you have a knife as well.

A ratio is incabable of explaining anything having to do with a fight. You can't say its a 1:1 in the begining, and you definatly cant say that putting a knife in each persons hand makes it back to 1:1. A ration or statistic is unable to explain something with so many variables.

7sm

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I have a concealed handgun permit, so that if I'm ever going somewhere that I feel is dangerous enough to carry, I'm able to legally. It may make no sense to you, but its about having the option available to me if I choose to use it.

I can respect that. I have all of my paperwork done, I just need to get fingerprinted to get CC permit.


The closest thing to "sparring" that I do is Chi Saou. My training against opponents is working \with different people who train in different systems.

We do similar things, but we call them flow drills (hubad, sombrada, etc). We consider it attribute training to teach timing, rythm, footwork, etc and sometimes as foundation for semi-free sparring, but it is nothing like regular old weapon sparring. Why by the way do you see no value in sparring? You mentioned "working with different people"... this doesn't exactly sound like fighting "uncooperative opponents". It sounds like trading notes so you both can learn, which is great.



What your saying then is that empty hand techniques are not dangerous or destructive enough to defend against a knife. Because the level of danger your own attack has, has no bearing on the level of attack your opponent has. I think this comes down to a lack of confidence in empty hand techniques. All that has been said about the dangers of facing a knife are still present whne you have a knife as well.


Agreed! The danger (or lack of danger depending on your views) of the knife person DOES NOT change no matter if you have a weapon or not. What DOES change is the fact that when you have a knife you have a tool to help you survive. Empty hand techniques CAN work vs a knife, its just my argument that having something to help, provided the person is trained properly, is better. So I have agreed that emptyhand techniques can and do work, I have stated this from the beginning, other posters have given personal accounts of being unarmed vs a knife and surviving, but I'd still rather have a stick or a knife. I will still scavange the ground for a trash can lid or 2x4, and I will still run like hell and be called a coward.

A ratio is incabable of explaining anything having to do with a fight. You can't say its a 1:1 in the begining, and you definatly cant say that putting a knife in each persons hand makes it back to 1:1. A ration or statistic is unable to explain something with so many variables.

7sm

How else would you explain 2 equal fighters? I used this as a baseline because of all the variables of you could be better, the attacker could be better, you both don't know whats going on, or your both expert killers. Of course if the knife person is a novice and the emptyhand person is a seasoned expert it going to sway the ratio. I'm trying to keep it even so that when we introduce the item in question, the knife, we can determine if it has an effect on the fight. Do you mean to tell me if you get 2 trained people that are both pretty good and put a knife in one of there hands, its not going to matter?

 

[arnisandyz]

sorry, some of my replys got mixed in with your quotes 7sm

 

[arnisador]

Bear in mind that if you have a knife and your opponent has a knife then he is going to adjust his game. Yes his knife is just as deadly, but he'll likely use it in an even more tentative way (that isn't really the word I want here but it'll have to do). So, there is a fundamanetal difference in my opinion if you both have knives.

A knife makes one punch-one kill much more of a possibility than just empty hands. It also makes the empty-hands strategy of closing to finish off an opponent potentially riskier.

 

[lhommedieu]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
Your using statistics to prove an encounter that contains an abundance of variables that render statistics inaccurate. A fight, is in no way limited by statistics. Its not feasable to accept an outcome of an encounter using statistics.

Actually, I'm not using statistics to bolster my argument; I'm arguing that the odds of surviving a knife vs. knife encounter are approximately "even" (50/50), or "less than even," if neither party stops short of being stopped while trying to stop the other guy. Why? Because of the well-known adage that there are three possible endings to this sort of encounter: a) you both end up dead; b) they're dead and you're not; c) you're dead and they're not. (Notice that you end up dead 2/3's of the time.) Now, I'm well aware of the fact that this is a somewhat artificial arguement, and I'm merely using it a tool to focus the discussion. For example, it's possible to be stabbed repeatedly and still survive this kind of fight. It's also possible, that if two unarmed opponents make up their minds not to stop until they've stopped the other guy, one of them might end up dead as a result of the other's actions, e.g., A breaks B's neck with a hold or B stomps A to death with his boots after knocking him down and out.

It's just so much more likely to happen with an edged weapon than without one, for the following reasons:

1. The inherent lethality of the knife, which indescriminately severs arteries and organs irrespective of skill or technique.
2. The inherent randomness of fighting, which takes #1 and exponentializes it. (I am thus not discounting the "abundance of variables," as you suggest above, but accepting them as a given).

In my personal opinion, if my odds are so poor to begin with knife vs. knife, then they are even less unarmed vs. knife, as stated previously.

I don't understand if an attacker is weilding a knife, and I'm unarmed, what is going to raise my chances of survival so much by me taking up a 3" blade? Your telling me that all this speed and dangerous tearing of arteries done by well trained knife fighters is going to go away because I pick up a blade myself? Forgive me, but that is naive.

I never said that anything was going to "go away." I said that your chances were better with a knife than without, and added the caveat that they weren't so good anyway. And yes, I'd prefer a 3" blade over nothing at all.

No one on this thread is suggesting getting into this type of situation, in fact, I prefer to stay out of any type of physical encounter myself. A dangerous fantasy would be entering into an encounter hoping on statistics to save you. A dangerous fantasy would be to believe that because you pull a blade you are invincible. Training empty habd vs knife is a realistic situation to train against, because it can happen to you. Training realistically against it, knowing your going to get cut, possibly even seriously, is realistic. I know the realism of getting cut, but that doesn't change that think a skilled fighter can effectivly defend themselves against an edged weapon. I've seen it done, I've had to do it myself, it is possible, and very worth training for.

7sm

With respect to knives, I train "I have a knife, you don't," "I have a knife, you have a knife," "I don't have a knife, you have a knife." They're all worth training for, and for different reasons. I favor having a weapon "in hand" when facing another weapon merely because it increases my odds, however marginally.

No one wants to be in the situations we've been describing, for obvious reasons. And, to be honest, this is just an internet chat - far away from anything that can be adequately described in words. I don't think I've engaged in dangerous fantasies by stating that weapons make good equalizers, given that I'm kind of pessimistic in the first place. I certainly wouldn't, for example, put down my weapon against an armed opponent because I had more confidence in my unarmed fighting abilities than the average guy (even if they were better). I guess my hypothetical question would be: "Who goes unarmed to a knife fight?" I'll fetch my gun.

BTW, in an informal survey of 1024 gladiators in the coliseum circa 256 A.D., 0.0% chose to enter the arena without their weapon. This survey had a margin of error of 0.5%.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by lhommedieu
I certainly wouldn't, for example, put down my weapon against an armed opponent because I had more confidence in my unarmed fighting abilities than the average guy (even if they were better). I guess my hypothetical question would be: "Who goes unarmed to a knife fight?" I'll fetch my gun.

I think the answer to your hypothetical question would be nobody. I'm not suggesting entering into any type of fight, I'm saying that if a situation arises, I would prefer to be empty handed. Thats my prefrence. For anyone to say that is naive or unrealistic is ignoring the reason they themselves train. I am perfectly aware of the dangers of a knife fight, I have been saying them myself, I don't see why my belief that empty hand has the same margin for victory that another knife would is offensive or intemidating. All the facts that you guys have so ardently presented as to why not to fight a person with a knife applies to whether you have another weapon or are unarmed.
The idea that empty hand is not devistating enough to defned against a knife is just a voice of inexperience in empty hand techniques.

Originally posted by lhommedieu
BTW, in an informal survey of 1024 gladiators in the coliseum circa 256 A.D., 0.0% chose to enter the arena without their weapon. This survey had a margin of error of 0.5%.

How many gladiators used 3" knife blades? Thats all we are talking about here, not long weapons.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by arnisandyz
We do similar things, but we call them flow drills (hubad, sombrada, etc). We consider it attribute training to teach timing, rythm, footwork, etc and sometimes as foundation for semi-free sparring, but it is nothing like regular old weapon sparring. Why by the way do you see no value in sparring? You mentioned "working with different people"... this doesn't exactly sound like fighting "uncooperative opponents". It sounds like trading notes so you both can learn, which is great.

I'm sorry, I can't find a more appropriate way to explain my training to you. I think the problem is more an issue with you not wanting to accept my training as valid. Thats ok, I have seen other schools train, from TKD, CMA, FMA, BJJ, MMA, and from watching them I am more convinced that my training is one of the most realistic I have come across. I'm not talking about "trading notes" but realistic hardcore training.
Please dont take this as me being upset with what you wrote, I'm not at all, I just don't know how to explain my training more.

Originally posted by arnisandyz
Do you mean to tell me if you get 2 trained people that are both pretty good and put a knife in one of there hands, its not going to matter?

No, I'm not saying it wont matter, I'm saying it wont make the "fight" completely impossible. I'm saying that certain people or certain systems train in empty hand vs blade and are competent enough to defend against it.

7sm

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I'm sorry, I can't find a more appropriate way to explain my training to you. I think the problem is more an issue with you not wanting to accept my training as valid. Thats ok, I have seen other schools train, from TKD, CMA, FMA, BJJ, MMA, and from watching them I am more convinced that my training is one of the most realistic I have come across. I'm not talking about "trading notes" but realistic hardcore training.
Please dont take this as me being upset with what you wrote, I'm not at all, I just don't know how to explain my training more.

7sm

Its not that I don't want to accept your training, just trying to understand what you do.

so far I've heard you describe your training as..."Realistic Hardcore training, Chi Saou. I only train in realistic situations with uncooperative opponents. My training against opponents is working with different people who train in different systems. We train in specific situations and also do free training, where neither of us know what the other is going to do. We focus on applicable techniques and work on the realistic application of ever technique...focus simply of the realism of self-defense."

Here is an example of one of our sparring matches (perhaps this will help you define your hardcore training to me)... We fight either within a 2 minute period continuous OR we fight till potentially leathal or disabling blows prevent the other person from fighting. We fight with 28" rattan sticks or 12" aluminum daggers or 6" aluminum folder simulators or empty hand and variations of all of the above. We do wear headgear (were not stupid) and light hand protection and a cup. knee and elbow pads optional, but we don't go too heavily padded up. Striking and kicking are permitted. Ground fighting, grappling, biting, pinching is permited. Disarms sometimes happen in which case the fighter that lost his weapon continues empty handed vs the weapon. The potential for broken bones and bruises is there, leathal target areas (mainly the head) is somewhat protected by gear. I will almost bet the others that have posted will tell you something somewhat similar in their training. We're not quite the Dog Brothers (lol) nor do we want to be, but we want to make our training as realistic without major injuries. Someone is REALLY tring to hit or stab you and you return the favor. Hopefully by this post you can see how to describe your training to us.

 

[arnisador]

Another good place for info. on this sort of thing is BladeForums. Here's a thread on untrained attackers:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=285599

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by arnisandyz
Its not that I don't want to accept your training, just trying to understand what you do.

so far I've heard you describe your training as..."Realistic Hardcore training, Chi Saou. I only train in realistic situations with uncooperative opponents. My training against opponents is working with different people who train in different systems. We train in specific situations and also do free training, where neither of us know what the other is going to do. We focus on applicable techniques and work on the realistic application of ever technique...focus simply of the realism of self-defense."

Here is an example of one of our sparring matches (perhaps this will help you define your hardcore training to me)... We fight either within a 2 minute period continuous OR we fight till potentially leathal or disabling blows prevent the other person from fighting. We fight with 28" rattan sticks or 12" aluminum daggers or 6" aluminum folder simulators or empty hand and variations of all of the above. We do wear headgear (were not stupid) and light hand protection and a cup. knee and elbow pads optional, but we don't go too heavily padded up. Striking and kicking are permitted. Ground fighting, grappling, biting, pinching is permited. Disarms sometimes happen in which case the fighter that lost his weapon continues empty handed vs the weapon. The potential for broken bones and bruises is there, leathal target areas (mainly the head) is somewhat protected by gear. I will almost bet the others that have posted will tell you something somewhat similar in their training. We're not quite the Dog Brothers (lol) nor do we want to be, but we want to make our training as realistic without major injuries. Someone is REALLY tring to hit or stab you and you return the favor. Hopefully by this post you can see how to describe your training to us.

We use our training weapons which are either wooden, steel, or hard rubber. We practice at about 85% speed and power. We allow any and every technique including sweeps and chin na techniques. I'll give you an example. One seesion consists of a 5 minute horse stance, followed by a timed 3 mile run, followed by our newest 6 forms full speed 3 times each, followed by 45 minutes of continuous fighting (full speed and power chi soau).
After this, we do continuous fighting with weapons, including staff, daggers, spear, flute, and broadsword, usually. That is the kind of training we do 4 times a week. After the continuous fighting we will go to specific situational training. That means I have no knife, you have a knife and you attack me in any way you feel fit. I defend myself. Then I have a knife, you have a knife, you attack me in any way you fel fit. I defend myself.

I don't feel the need to compare my training with anyones, I don't think that helps any of us. I'm sure you train hard as well. My training regiment shouldn't come into play here, as yours shouldn't either.

We are discussing the affectivness of empty hand techniques against a knife armed assailent. I think it is naive and close-minded to think that empty hand techniques are less legitament against a knife than any other type of defense.

7sm

 

[KumaSan]

Back to the central question, I might as well drop by and add my two cents. For me, personally, it's part of the mindset. If the bad guy has a knife, then me drawing my blade is my mental declaration of the Cold War era nuclear war protocol. Mutually Assured Destruction. Either we both die, or only he dies. His life is forfeit.

Also, a lot of people around here probably (if not, forgive me) train the common FMA style defang the snake methods (or behead and disembowel the snake for the Sayoc people). While these techniques can be effective empty handed, they have a higher percentage of working with a weapon in hand.

 

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
We use our training weapons which are either wooden, steel, or hard rubber. We practice at about 85% speed and power. We allow any and every technique including sweeps and chin na techniques. I'll give you an example. One seesion consists of a 5 minute horse stance, followed by a timed 3 mile run, followed by our newest 6 forms full speed 3 times each, followed by 45 minutes of continuous fighting (full speed and power chi soau).
After this, we do continuous fighting with weapons, including staff, daggers, spear, flute, and broadsword, usually. That is the kind of training we do 4 times a week. After the continuous fighting we will go to specific situational training. That means I have no knife, you have a knife and you attack me in any way you feel fit. I defend myself. Then I have a knife, you have a knife, you attack me in any way you fel fit. I defend myself.

I don't feel the need to compare my training with anyones, I don't think that helps any of us. I'm sure you train hard as well. My training regiment shouldn't come into play here, as yours shouldn't either.

We are discussing the affectivness of empty hand techniques against a knife armed assailent. I think it is naive and close-minded to think that empty hand techniques are less legitament against a knife than any other type of defense.

7sm

Thanks for sharing! Its not that i want to compare training regiments to prove "I'm better than you" or "your better than me". I've "borrowed" various training techniques from different people, and even though you may not see any benifit in exchanging ideas, I like to see what other people are doing out there in regards to knife fighting/defense. Thats all.

I don't think anybody claimed emptyhand techniques are LESS legitimate. If you read through the post again the overtone of most people (even yourself) is "I prefer..." or "I feel more comfortable ...""for me, I like to think of it as a police officer would look at the weapons available to him 1. pistol 2. baton 3. pepperspray. While pepperspray CAN be very effective in putting someone down the other 2 levels of force are more effective. Its up to the officer's protocol as to which tool to use depending on the situation and his comfort level with his tools.

 

[arnisandyz]

I don't think we will ever come to an agreement, nor did expect us to from the beginning. But as I mentioned, I've enoyed debating with you 7sm. You sound like a true Martial Artist who trains very hard for what you believe in, and I can't find any faults with that. good luck in your training and stay safe on the streets.

Andy

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by arnisandyz
I don't think we will ever come to an agreement, nor did expect us to from the beginning. But as I mentioned, I've enoyed debating with you 7sm. You sound like a true Martial Artist who trains very hard for what you believe in, and I can't find any faults with that. good luck in your training and stay safe on the streets.

Andy

I think your right, nothing either of us will say is going to change our training or mindset. We have had some good discusion here about empty hand vs knife. You guys sound like hard training martial artist as well, and that is a good thing.

I hope that if nothing else, some of you have at least given a little more thought or creedence to an empty hand person defending against a knife. I take away more knowledge of the dangers of a knife which have allways been high. Good Discussion.

7sm

 

[Cruentus]

You guys ended the discussion w/out me! I have only a few things to add.

I believe the "sparring" you and Paul are referring to are to totally different things. "Sparring" in the FMA can range from anywhere to no contact to full contact with live weapons, not the typical tournament tag match. Its an eye opener. Can you describe what you mean by training in realistic situations with uncooperative opponents? That can be taken in different ways.

Thanks

Andy

Yup...I just wanted to reinerate that I am not talking about tournament sparring. I am more or less talking about live training as opposed to drill based or form based training.

I consider myself a dead person at the beginning of any true self defense situation.

7sm

I think that this is a good mentality to have, one that I have as well. However, if we are to look at the issue in terms of statistics, statisticly speaking less then 1% of all murders each year are committed by someone without a weapon. So, realistically, if you are empty hand vs. empty hand, you are most likely not going to die. Your chances of dying are far greater if the person has any kind of weapon...but especially if they have a blade or gun. This is just something to think about.

Why can "picking something up" help reduce the danger of a knife wielding attacker?

Part of the danger with a knife attacker is that they can do what has been termed "nickle and dime" you. Basically this entails not throwing a commited attack, but rather slashing repidly and tightly at your limbs and areas thought to be "non-vital". The danger in this is that each cut makes it more difficult for you to return an attack, or defend against his. Once you have been "nickle and dimed" to the point where you are having extreme difficulty defending, then your attacker is able to close in on you much easier to go for a kill. This "nickle and dime" approach is very dangerous because even if you manage to take his weapon and/or take him out, how many "nickle and dime" cuts can your body take? Even 1 of these could be a nerve or artery severing blow, causing you death or perminent injury, even after the attack has ended.

Now I'll address "picking something up" that is not bladed. This could be a stick, a coat, a belt, a rock....anything. How does this help even the highly trained empty-hand martial artist? By picking something up, you are able to put an object between yourself and the attackers blade, potentially preventing him from "nickle and diming" you. If I am wearing a thick leather coat and leather gloves, for instance, I may be able to keep it on, and the sleeves and gloves may protect my arms from slashes, and the coat in general may protect me from stabs, to a degree. All those rapid little slashes may only do minimal damage in this case. Or, lets say I have a kevlar helmet (like on a battle feild), or a rock. I can use the helmet or rock to strike his knife hand, and I can use it as a shield. Basically, what you are doing with "picking something up" is you are allowing the "object" to be nickle and dimes rather then your own limbs and body. This may buy you an opportunity to take control of his knife hand, return the attack, or flee the scene. The limitation of a non-bladed object, however, is that it is more defensive then offensive. You can shield and block and even attack, but your blocks and attacks may not damage your attacker enough to stop him, making it enevitable that he will close the gap and kill you unless you are able to render him unable to attack. Plus, your nonsharp object may fail to defend you; the knife could cut through my leather jacket, or he could slice the hand that is holding the kevlar helmet or rock. There is no sure thing, with this, but it does improve your chances.

Now, let's say "you pick something up" that is sharp. Lets say you draw your own knife, for instance. Now...you have all the advantages of the protection of the blunt object...you can put something in front of the knife other then your own limbs. However, now you can be more offensive rather then only defensive. If he touches you with his blade...you are cut....but the same is true for him if you touch him with yours. Even if you are mostly an empty hand fighter, your skin is not steel proof, and you can't slice him open with your punches. It is an advantage for you to have a blade even if you only know how to fight empty hand. The reason is because as a trained martial artists, you have develped the timing, awareness, angling/distancing, and technique to be able to hit the opponent, and not get hit. The difference now is that when you "hit" you are cutting, and when you block or parry, you are cutting. He can't "nickle and dime" you without worrying about being "nickle and dimed" himself. He cannot simply close the gap to kill you without having to worry about your blade in the process. A knife is the great "equalizer."

So....I maintain that no matter who you are and what you know, Picking up something to put in front of a knife is better then nothing, and picking up a blade will put you on somewhat of an even ground with your attacker, even if your not trained well with the blade.

Some of you can disagree with me, but this is what I think...

PAUL
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by arnisandyz
I've "borrowed" various training techniques from different people

You're a better man than I am--I've outright stolen them!

I take stuff from this board back to my teaching and training--especially my teaching, as I "borrow" someone's way of saying or viewing things--and that's what makes these discussions not just sterile, academic debates.