Weapon of Choice...Knife?

[arnisandyz]

Originally posted by PAUL
You guys ended the discussion w/out me! I have only a few things to add.

Why can "picking something up" help reduce the danger

Paul, didn't really mean to end the discussion, I was just running out of things to say!!! Good point about using objects as a "shield". I watched one video I think it was marc mcYoung were he mentioned that plastic garbage can lids are great (if available) because the knife might get stuck in it, so while the attacker is working to get his knife out, you run or fight. One of my friends who has no MA experience at all, told me that when he got into a run in with a knife he actually took one of his shoes off ready to use as you mentioned.

Another thing to think about would be using the enviornment for the same purpose. Make they guy chase you around a tree or lamp post, car. Keep the object between you and the knife.

Andy

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I'm sorry, I can't find a more appropriate way to explain my training to you. I think the problem is more an issue with you not wanting to accept my training as valid. Thats ok, I have seen other schools train, from TKD, CMA, FMA, BJJ, MMA, and from watching them I am more convinced that my training is one of the most realistic I have come across. I'm not talking about "trading notes" but realistic hardcore training.
Please dont take this as me being upset with what you wrote, I'm not at all, I just don't know how to explain my training more.

7sm

7SM,

If you are ever in the Mid West, please let me know. I would like to see your style of fighting and sparring. I am always willing to learn and learn new ways.

:asian:

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
Now, let's say "you pick something up" that is sharp. Lets say you draw your own knife, for instance. Now...you have all the advantages of the protection of the blunt object...you can put something in front of the knife other then your own limbs. However, now you can be more offensive rather then only defensive. If he touches you with his blade...you are cut....but the same is true for him if you touch him with yours. Even if you are mostly an empty hand fighter, your skin is not steel proof, and you can't slice him open with your punches. It is an advantage for you to have a blade even if you only know how to fight empty hand. The reason is because as a trained martial artists, you have develped the timing, awareness, angling/distancing, and technique to be able to hit the opponent, and not get hit. The difference now is that when you "hit" you are cutting, and when you block or parry, you are cutting. He can't "nickle and dime" you without worrying about being "nickle and dimed" himself. He cannot simply close the gap to kill you without having to worry about your blade in the process. A knife is the great "equalizer."

This doesn't have to be "closed". I do have a few things to retort with. "Please Allow me to retort" (Samuel L. Jackson quote)

I don't think the 3" long, 1/2 inch think blade is going to act as much of a protection or shield. Trying to use your blade to block or shield his blade is just going to get you cut. I'm not trying to say its good to only train as an empty hand fighter, I certainly don't.
I think the problem is focusing on the "slicing him open" statment. You don't need to slice him open if you can crush his attack. Thats my point. If your empty hand techniques are devistating enough, the needing extra damage in your attacks is not neccesary.

I understand the dangers of the "nickle and dime" situation. What my strategy would be is to not let the fight last long enough for a nickle and dime strategy to even have merit. If you fighting a 275 pound 6'4" full contact UFC fighter, are you going to try and stall the fight long enough to get him tired? Are you going to try and trade punches with him? No, your going to try and take out a knee, or something so devistating that he will not be getting back up to finish the fight. Its the same with a knife weilding opponent. Don't stick around long enough to let him nickle and dime you, or for the nickle and dime to take effect. I know your saying that after the fight, you may still be seriously cut. That is very true, but the true danger of him killing you is over, you can then get to a hospital or whatever is neccesary. True, you could still die. Those are the dangers of defending against a knife, armed or unarmed.

Originally posted by PAUL
Part of the danger with a knife attacker is that they can do what has been termed "nickle and dime" you. Basically this entails not throwing a commited attack, but rather slashing repidly and tightly at your limbs and areas thought to be "non-vital".

Ok, let me give you my strategy about this type of situation. Him (or her) throwing, not comitted attacks, but slashing rapidly and tightly, is going to cause me to back up, or move to the side in order to stay out of the attacks. This means the slashing is not contacting with me at all. However, the rapid slashing will bring us closer at which point I will find a spot to steal his/her attack and stop the encounter as quickly and devistatingly as possible.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
7SM,

If you are ever in the Mid West, please let me know. I would like to see your style of fighting and sparring. I am always willing to learn and learn new ways.

:asian:

I would love that, I really enjoy training with people from other systems. You can really learn alot that way.
If your ever in East Texas, let me know, we'll do some training.

7sm

 

[Cruentus]

First off, a 1 inch blade does act as a "shield" in the sense that if you use your empty hand to block, the knife wielder can easily twist his wrist around and cut your limb. If your block is actually an attack to the opponents wrist with a 1 inch blade, then this becomes more difficult. So, your right in that this isn't a 'shield' in the conventional sense, but I guess that is hard to explain over the internet. So, if you come accross a school that teaches real knife tactics, ask them about this and I am sure that they can show you.

I guess my biggest problem is that I feel that you have a very unrealistic outlook here. Unless your running, in control of the knife hand already, or shielding, you don't have much control over the nickle and dime effect, period. You seem to think that your going to close the gap and prevent him from nickle and diming you, not realizing that he can retreat as you close, slicing you up in the process. It doesn't sound like you understand this "effect" at all. You also seem to have a lot of faith in your ability to "crush his attack." The way you describe how you would "take out his knees" (even if he's a 275 lb UFC fighter) is akin to superhuman powers. You also seem to believe that your method of "sparring" superceeds all other styles (that you've seen). I guess if that was true, then that would explain your superhuman abilites to close the gap, and crush your opponents attack, right? Well, its a little to much to swallow for me.

It would seem to me that your either A. Extremely niave or B. You know your full of it, but you want all of us to believe you have superhuman abilities. I don't know the answer, but if I had to guess, I'd guess its both. You talk like someone who has never really had to defend themselves outside of the MA school, but who wants the world wide web to believe otherwise.

Now, I know the above could be seen as very insulting, so I apologize. I am not angry or upset, but I just can't believe what you say. I mean this in the friendliest way possible, but if we ever have the chance to run into each other, your going to have to prove a lot of what you say to me for me to believe it. Hell, if its all true, I'd quite my style(s) and move to Texas to train. I guess "seeing is believing" in this case, and I have yet to have the superior empty hand vs. knife abilities demonstrated to me that you have illustrated. And I have been training for 19 years in the martial arts, I have trained with some of the best in the world (for their field), and I have experienced styles from almost every genre and culture. I have yet to see demonstrated the abilities you describe.

Have a good one....

PAUL

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
First off, a 1 inch blade does act as a "shield" in the sense that if you use your empty hand to block, the knife wielder can easily twist his wrist around and cut your limb. If your block is actually an attack to the opponents wrist with a 1 inch blade, then this becomes more difficult. So, your right in that this isn't a 'shield' in the conventional sense, but I guess that is hard to explain over the internet. So, if you come accross a school that teaches real knife tactics, ask them about this and I am sure that they can show you.

I know exactly what your talking about, we use it in our knife training. You seem to think that I have no training with the knife, quite the contrary. If I had to use a weapon of my choosing, the knife would be my first choice. I have trained quite a bit using the knife, not as much as you I'm sure, but enough to understand what your suggesting about the "shield". I just don't believe, except in Steven Seagal movies, that using a knife to deflect or block another knife is a good idea. I guess we differ there.

Originally posted by PAUL
I guess my biggest problem is that I feel that you have a very unrealistic outlook here. Unless your running, in control of the knife hand already, or shielding, you don't have much control over the nickle and dime effect, period. You seem to think that your going to close the gap and prevent him from nickle and diming you, not realizing that he can retreat as you close, slicing you up in the process.

Its ok that you can't see what I'm talking about. People who train heavily in a particular weapon or technique generally have a hard time hearing it is not the end all be all of fighting. Your talking about my closing the gap and having control of the knife hand as two separate things. This mentality took me a while to lose as well when I started studying under my Sifu. Its hard to see three of four or more techniques thrown in to an almost simultaneous movement. Why would I close the gap without either A) having control of the knife hand (iffy at best) or B) having yielded out of the way allowing the attacker to become over committed.
Your taking everything I say as a declaration of my superiority. Thats a little hasty as I have said I am not condoning fighting an opponent armed or unarmed. My first reaction is to run, or cry like a little baby girl and maybe not even have to fight. I'm just giving you my beliefs and experience which lead me to believe that defending empty hand against a knife is not an impossible accomplishment.

Originally posted by PAUL
It doesn't sound like you understand this "effect" at all. You also seem to have a lot of faith in your ability to "crush his attack." The way you describe how you would "take out his knees" (even if he's a 275 lb UFC fighter) is akin to superhuman powers. You also seem to believe that your method of "sparring" superceeds all other styles (that you've seen). I guess if that was true, then that would explain your superhuman abilites to close the gap, and crush your opponents attack, right? Well, its a little to much to swallow for me.

I did some "soul searching" since we have been talking about this subject. I went to my sifu and talked with him in length about this type of situation to see if maybe I'm being a little overly confident. In turn he spoke with his Sifu about it. Now we are talking about a man who trained under, and then taught for Master Chan Poi in the Wah Lum Temple for 4 years. He has trained under the best in the world in mantis and several systems of kung fu, including Lee Kam Wing, Chan Poi, and Henry Chung to name a few. They seem to be under the same inclination that I am. We do have allot of faith in our ability to "crush an attack" just as you seem to have allot of faith in your ability to "nickel and dime" me to death. Or kill me as I try and disarm you. Each time you say what I'm saying is hard for you to swallow, you make the same narcissistic comments about your training and beliefs that you say make you not believe me.

If your under the impression that me (6'2", 206lbs) would need to have superhuman powers to take out or crush a knee of a 275 pound person is inexperienced at best. I suggest talking with a sports medicine doctor or possible trauma surgeon and asking what amount of pressure is needed to break a patella, or even the tendons around a knee. You will be amazed at the response you get. The head trauma surgeon for Mother Francis Hospital Services happens to work out with us here at the school and he seems to think about 8 or 10 pounds of pressure appropriately placed would not only crush someone's attack, but possible sever the arteries around the knee causing massive internal bleed out and death within 8 or 10 hours if not treated.
I'm not trying to throw knowledge on you to make you believe me, I'm trying to let you see how much training and study I've put into my beliefs. Its not something I take lightly, I'm very serious about my training, as are you from what I gather. Why not learn from each other, and not write each other off as imbeciles.

I don't believe that my method of "sparring" supercedes anyone's. I believe you have interpreted that incorrectly. I do think after having seen many people training regiments, that mine is quite legitimate, but I don't take credit for that, my sifu is who developed and taught me how to train. You seem to be more comfortable believing I'm a rambling lunatic saying I'm better than everyone else. I haven't said I'm better than ANYONE else. I don't believe in making those type of comparisons, I don't think it helps my training, and if my training isn't improved, or my skill, why do it? I can tell you, after having played hands and done just a few drills with my sigung, I would deffinatly label his skill level as "superhuman". But thats just my inexperience talking probably. Attack him with a knife and he would be nothing I'm sure.

Originally posted by PAUL
It would seem to me that your either A. Extremely niave or B. You know your full of it, but you want all of us to believe you have superhuman abilities. I don't know the answer, but if I had to guess, I'd guess its both. You talk like someone who has never really had to defend themselves outside of the MA school, but who wants the world wide web to believe otherwise.

Thats fine. Your choosing to interpret my beliefs as me wanting to sound better than anyone, even when I continually say I don't think I'm better than ANYONE. Thats ok though, its easier to write me off that way. I'm really sorry I have come across as sounding naive or inexperienced, my goal was to simply discuss the equation of empty hand defense against a knife. I do not attempt to show myself as being some type of superhuman skilled warrior. I see myself as a young inexperienced student, who has a lifetime of stuff to learn. It looks as if we are about the same age, Paul, I'm about a year older than you. It looks like we started MA about the same time. I would presume we could learn allot from each other if we weren't trying to write each other off.

Originally posted by PAUL
Now, I know the above could be seen as very insulting, so I apologize. I am not angry or upset, but I just can't believe what you say. I mean this in the friendliest way possible, but if we ever have the chance to run into each other, your going to have to prove a lot of what you say to me for me to believe it. Hell, if its all true, I'd quite my style(s) and move to Texas to train. I guess "seeing is believing" in this case, and I have yet to have the superior empty hand vs. knife abilities demonstrated to me that you have illustrated. And I have been training for 19 years in the martial arts, I have trained with some of the best in the world (for their field), and I have experienced styles from almost every genre and culture. I have yet to see demonstrated the abilities you describe.

I would love to show some of what I'm talking about, but not for the reason of proving I'm better than you or anyone else. If we could work together to both learn from the encounter, that would be nice. I'm not trying to show that my "style" is any better than anyone's. I'm trying to show that unrealistic training is that which ignores that facts that what your doing is not the only thing in the world. To say that "no one no matter who they are or what they have trained in" would best you if you had a knife, is a little conceited, and unrealistic in my opinion. It has been my experience that there is ALLWAYS someone much better out there whom you haven't yet encountered. I'm not claiming to be this person, I'm just saying, train hard, as you do, but train realistically. You cannot believe that one type of weapon can beat anyone at any time regardless of skill level.

7sm

 

[Cruentus]

I agree...we could both learn a lot by getting on the floor with each other. I try to learn from anyone that way, frankly. Like I said, this is one of those cases where I'd have to "see to believe" because much of what you say is contrary to what I have learned in my 19 years of training.

As to "crushing someones attack"...let me say that I am 5'7 1/2", yet I weight 230 (I am cutting wieght though right now, so I'll probably weigh 215 in a few months); I squat over 600lbs. and bench around 400....and thats reps. I have been told that I hit like a "ton of bricks" by professional fighters. Sorry to sound like I am grandstanding here, but I am making a point. That point is that the human body is at times much more fragile then we think, and is also much more resilient then we think. With my size, strength, and stiking ability, I hope that if I smash my foot into someones knee, it breaks. Yet, I know that if my focus is the least bit off, and if he is a resilient attacker, this may not happend. I can't be as arrogent to expect this to occur.

Here is a project that might help you. Find a MMArtist, and say that you want to fight him full contact, but ask if knee strikes could be allowed. Most MMArtists can be pretty cocky, so I am sure you'll find one that will agree. Then...play. I think you'll be very suprised that his knee might not shatter on contact, where he'll need medical attantion within 8-10 hours to prevent his injury from becoming fatal.

I will say that my full contact experience, although I am refering to competition and not combat, was really sobering for me in understanding the effects of my strikes on a resisting opponent, and the effects of their strikes on my. I wouldn't put my straightened knee accross a table to let someone smash it with a hammer at 10 lbs of pressure, but I'd let someone try to kick it while I am fighting them anyday.

Also...understand that when I am talking about the dangers of a knife attacker, I am not boasting my own abilities. Give me 15 minutes to train anyone, and we'll see the outcome against you, or the highest ranking priest from fuk m upp temple. You'll be suprised to find the outcome. I am not saying that your instructors would be helpless, but I am saying that I believe that you'll be suprised that their standard of error...in other words I'll bet that at least 50% of the time your "Masters" are going to get diced by the untrained person in the process of their defense. Its just the way life is.

Anyways, I don't mean to write you off, but I don't think I will be able to believe what you say just from the internet. There aren't any sources you can point to to support your arguement (not your fault, but this is just the way it is), yet there are plenty to support mine. So, I'd have to "see to believe".

Here is an interesting article you should check out. Besides learning that combative's instructors shouldn't do math (lol), I think this site is very informative:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/statisticalchances.htm


PAUL
:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Weapon of choice....knife?

Well, if the question is "weapon of choice....blade?" then the answer is...

YES

Rather, the weapon of choice for combat has always been something that cuts through flesh. The only exception is when rules are imposed (stick dueling in the PI, or sparing matches in the US for instance), which is not real combat per say, or when armor is involved. Most of the time, and throughout history, the weapon of choice is something that can cut through flesh. knives fall into this category. Even firearms....what does a bullet do? IT projects at a high speed, thus cutting through the person on contact. Bullets cut through flesh also.

So...as long as blades have been in existance, I maintain that something bladed is prefered over something that isn't; if your object is to kill in combat.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
I agree...we could both learn a lot by getting on the floor with each other. I try to learn from anyone that way, frankly. Like I said, this is one of those cases where I'd have to "see to believe" because much of what you say is contrary to what I have learned in my 19 years of training.{/B]

What is it that I say that is so contrary to your extensive experience? That you can back up and not be cut? That you can close someone throat with a strike to that region? I'm not sure what is contrary to your training that I stated?

Originally posted by PAUL
As to "crushing someones attack"...let me say that I am 5'7 1/2", yet I weight 230 (I am cutting wieght though right now, so I'll probably weigh 215 in a few months); I squat over 600lbs. and bench around 400....and thats reps. I have been told that I hit like a "ton of bricks" by professional fighters.

I'm glad you feel confident in your body. What does this have to do with our discussion? The more I listen to your posts, the harder it is getting to accept what your telling me as well. I'm sorry, no ofense ment, but c'mon.

Originally posted by PAUL
That point is that the human body is at times much more fragile then we think, and is also much more resilient then we think. With my size, strength, and stiking ability, I hope that if I smash my foot into someones knee, it breaks. Yet, I know that if my focus is the least bit off, and if he is a resilient attacker, this may not happend. I can't be as arrogent to expect this to occur.

First thing, your only thinking in "one deminsion". There are about a million ways to kick someone's knee. Not all have to be straight on full power crushing kicks. I full weighted downward kick to the side of the knee will force the knee into the concrete or asphalt and effectivle crush the knee. That will not take an exorbitant amount of pressure or power.

Originally posted by PAUL
Here is a project that might help you. Find a MMArtist, and say that you want to fight him full contact, but ask if knee strikes could be allowed. Most MMArtists can be pretty cocky, so I am sure you'll find one that will agree. Then...play. I think you'll be very suprised that his knee might not shatter on contact, where he'll need medical attantion within 8-10 hours to prevent his injury from becoming fatal.

I regularly train with a MMA guy who uses our bag room. We do basically full contact training. I mentioned that allready. Your not seriously suggesting fighting full contact and me trying to take out his knee with a full contact kick? Thats not very smart, you don't keep training partners that way. Paul, I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, but lets not go overboard and try to make what I say sound retarted. I never said anything about shattering anything on contact. Oh, and for a project, do that research I talked about. Not believing me is fine, I mean I don't yet have my masters degree in Physical Therapy, but go aska sports medicine doctor, or trauma sergeon. A full power kick to the side of a knee driving it into the concrete is not goign to be something easy to recover from.
Also, I never said anythin about expecting that to end it. In fact I said in the mantis system you keep going with more nad more techniques.

Originally posted by PAUL
I will say that my full contact experience, although I am refering to competition and not combat, was really sobering for me in understanding the effects of my strikes on a resisting opponent, and the effects of their strikes on my. I wouldn't put my straightened knee accross a table to let someone smash it with a hammer at 10 lbs of pressure, but I'd let someone try to kick it while I am fighting them anyday.

And you want me to believe that you have actually used your skills in self defense? This is an arrogent and inexperienced statement. This makes me see your mentallity, and honestly, I can see why you can't take what I say to heart, but rather write it off.

Originally posted by PAUL
Also...understand that when I am talking about the dangers of a knife attacker, I am not boasting my own abilities. Give me 15 minutes to train anyone, and we'll see the outcome against you, or the highest ranking priest from fuk m upp temple. You'll be suprised to find the outcome. I am not saying that your instructors would be helpless, but I am saying that I believe that you'll be suprised that their standard of error...in other words I'll bet that at least 50% of the time your "Masters" are going to get diced by the untrained person in the process of their defense. Its just the way life is.

That is probably one of the most disrespectful and plain offensive thing I have read on these forums. I now understand your position, and I see your "experience".
I post on this forum to have respectful and mature discussions, and this is exactly what you are not doing.

Originally posted by PAUL
Anyways, I don't mean to write you off, but I don't think I will be able to believe what you say just from the internet. There aren't any sources you can point to to support your arguement (not your fault, but this is just the way it is), yet there are plenty to support mine. So, I'd have to "see to believe".

Its a pretty big assumption to say I have no sources. You haven't listed any of your amazing sources either, so lets not jump to assumptions as we know what happens when you make an assumption right?

I think we have gone beyond a dicussion and you are now twisting around what I've said to make me sound uncredable. I don't really want to keep this going, so if we have nothing further to say respectfully, then lets end it now.

7sm

 

[Rich Parsons]

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

Rich Parsons
Assistant Administrator

 

[Cruentus]

Mods: I am not angry or attampting to break the rules in this thread. If I have or do cross the line, please PM me so I can redirect my responses. It isn't worth getting in trouble over this conversation...thanks.


7sm: Here are a couble of points to address your response.

#1. What I say that is so "different" from your experience is that I am saying that a barely trained person with a knife can prevent a trained person, like myself, yourself, your teachers, my teachers, etc., from closing on them (due to the nature of the blade and the fact that all they have to do is touch you with it to damage you), while cutting away at them in the process much easier then a trained person can close the gap and defend from the knife; thus making the odds in favor of the knife wielder regardless of training. You are saying that empty handed you can close on the knife player without difficulty because of your extensive training. I am saying your wrong, and you can't. The odds just aren't in your favor. You can disagree with me if you'd like, but most people who train realistic knife tactics will disagree with you as well. Don't worry, at the end of my post I'll provide you with some sources.

#2. I am not really saying anything towards my "extensive experience" I am just stating that most of what you say in regards to empty hand vs. knife doesn't coincide with my 19 years of experience. By stating the "19 years" you are at least given a point of reference, so you know that I am not someone who has trained a few month and who is just trolling for trouble. I am just being honest by saying that my experience doesn't coincide with yours. I think that you will find that many others agree with me as well.

#3. I stated my "stats" (Weight, hieght, bench press, etc.) so that you could see that I am larger, stronger, and trained to hit harder then the average male. This is a fact, not an embelishment. Yet, even as such, I don't feel that my ability to "crush someones knee," (or anything of the like) is foulproof, or even completely reliable. And yes, I know that there are many different ways to kick a knee. And I don't need to talk to an expert in the medical field; I know that a crushing blow to the side or even back of the knee that causes the knee to collapse into a hard surface (like pavement) could be devistating to the point of broken bones, torn ligaments, muscles, and tendons. We are talking about that knee not working right again if done in such a devistating manner. However, you say that you can do this the same way someone says that they can "knock the person out in one punch". You seem to have forgotten that the human body can move around, and the knee can resist being stomped into the pavement. Thinking that you will do this in one easy kick is as arrogent and unrealistic as thinking that you'll knock him out in 1 punch, or that your'll collapse his throat in one strike. To think such a thing seems arrogent and niave to me.

#4. Yes, I was suggesting fighting full contact (something that a MMArtist who competes is used to) and allowing knee kicks. Know why? Because a. There are many MMArtists who would be crazy enough to spar you like that, and would WANT TO spar you if you told them about the poweress of your knee kicks, and b. despite what you think, I'd say you have only a small percent chance of doing any damage to his knee before he takes you down. If what I think is true, then what do you think a knife person will do to you before your able to get near his knee?

Now if you want to do a safer experiment, do what I have done. Find a powerful kicker. Put on a knee pad so the impact of his heel won't damage your bone. Get in a bent kneed stance...as if your were fighting, and let the person stand on the side of your knee. If your resisting, you will find that it won't collapse. Next. Have the person start with light kicks, gradually increasing the strength until he can deliver full out blows. What you'll find with this excersise is 2 very important things. A. It hurts to get kicked in the knee, so there is no doubt that this is a good place to aim in a fight. B. If your resisting, your knee isn't being "crushed into the pavement" as the martial arts myth would claim. The fact is, you could probably continue to fight after being kicked (even without a knee pad) unless he kicked you "just right".

Bottom line here is that your ability to crush a knee, throat, limb, or whatever is NOT a sure thing; and if you think it is, your being niave and arrogent, in my opinion. The ability for a knife to cut flesh IS a sure thing. This puts the odds in favor of the knife wielder, regardless of training. To put it in idiot terms knife guy makes contact with knife blade to your flesh, you are garunteed to be cut. You make contact with your foot on knife guys knee...no garuntees! Got it?

#5. You said I am being disrespectful. Which part? The part about fuk m upp temple? Or the part about me training an amature for 15 minutes with a blade, and that amature being able cut up you or your instructors more times then not with a blade if they are going empty hand?

If it was my little joke about the temple, well, relax. It was a tounge and cheek comment, not to be confused with me disrespecting your linage or art...that is not my intent. I'll apoligize if this was your problem.

However, if you thought the part about me saying that I feel that I could train someone with average athletic abilities for 15 minutes to dice you or your instructors up if they go empty handed more often then not, then that is your problem not mine. This is just the way I feel about the circumstance...and I am not changing my mind until I am someone proves me wrong. I don't mean it as disrespect; that's just the way I feel.

#6. I am not twisting anything around to try to make you sound uncredable. You continue to say more and more things that I believe is completely incorrect. I have maintained this position since the beginning of the topic. I have not changed my mind, backtracked, mislead, or "twisted" anything here. Anything that "sounds" uncredable or "retarded" only sounds that way because of the way your said it.

#7 Speaking of uncredable statements, I am noticing that you have contradicted yourself more then once in both this thread, and the previous thread on the subject. An example would be when you said in your last post, "I have never said anything about shattering anything on contact..." Yet, when you say things like, "My point is that even if you cut me three times with it in the process, I still would have shattered a knee and crushed a windpipe. I just dont see it being a weapon of choice." Followed up later with this claim, "The head trauma surgeon for Mother Francis Hospital Services happens to work out with us here at the school and he seems to think about 8 or 10 pounds of pressure appropriately placed would not only crush someone's attack, but possible sever the arteries around the knee causing massive internal bleed out and death within 8 or 10 hours if not treated." It sure sounds like you are contradicting yourself, doesn't it? Or how about, " I don't believe that my method of "sparring" [training, etc.] supercedes anyone's." Yet previously you stated, "Thats ok, I have seen other schools train, from TKD, CMA, FMA, BJJ, MMA, and from watching them I am more convinced that my training is one of the most realistic I have come across. I'm not talking about "trading notes" but realistic hardcore training." This sure sounds like your contradicting yourself again.

These seemingly contradictory statements is what's hurting your credability, not me. This has been very problamatic in my attempt to buy what you are saying.

I'll post this for now, but these are the pretty negative aspects of the things I have to say, making this post more of a rebuttle to what you have said rather then an informative post. I have more to say, but I will post seperately so that MT members can seperate my informative post from my rebuttle to you.

On that note, I am just going to be franks to say that it would appear that, at least with this topic, that you are way out of your element. If I were you I'd back it up, do more research, and come up with a more informed opinion rather then trying to back up possible mistakes in what you have said. I am sure this sounds arrogent as hell for me to say this, but this is just what I think needs to be done. I've done it before myself. People will only respect you more for it.

PAUL

 

[Cruentus]

The idea that, "Our system is taught to strike continiously until our opponent is down" has been before by advocates of fighting a knife fighter empty handed (both here and elsewhere) when confronted with the idea that their 1 strike is not a sure thing.

What they are forgetting is the fact that "time" is not in your favor if you are empty hand vs. knife. Fighting someone with a knife is like playing russian ruelette(sp?); it is only a matter of time before you are cut or killed. So, the longer the situation lasts, the more likely it is for the empty hand fighter to be cut up and/or killed. Here are your options, in order of preference, when you face a knife empty handed (assuming the attacker is determined to kill you). No matter what you study, this is all you got:

#1. Run. By far the best option, and prefered if you are able too. You have the best chance of survival if you can run.

#2. Do something right away that will disable the knife. An immediate disarm of the knife, an immediate interception and control of the knife hand, or an immediate attack resulting in the attacker being completely immobilized would be an example. The problem with this is you can't screw this up at all; if you do, your chances of being cut to pieces rise dramatically. Furthermore, this requires a committed attack; the less committed and telegraphed, the less likely your chances of pulling this off. And finally, to do this option requires an extreme amount of proficiency on your part.

The biggest problem with this is that no matter how much you have trained, a sharp blade will always cut your flesh on contact, but your technique will not always work on contact. He has a sure thing in his hand, where as your technique is neer a sure thing. This is how the odds are always against you, no matter how trained you are.

#3. Dodge and evade until you can run or grab something to aid you in your defense. This is preferable if you are not trained well, and you can't run. It is also your only option if #2 fails (and you can't run). You can always try #2 again, but remember that your chances of being cut are greater with each failed attempt, and they weren't in your favor to begin with. Problem with this is that once again, the longer your in the situation, the greater your chances of being cut. Furthermore, he can close on you faster then you can retreat just like he can win a running race against you if you run backwards while he runs forwards. Also, action is faster then reaction. Another disadvantage is that if you are able to pick something up, chances are it won't be lethal enough to stop him, thus prolonging the incident and greatening your odds of being cut.

This solution is extremely problamatic, but must be used if it is all that is available to you.

#4 Spaz out, rush in on him, and barade him with attacks while you are trying to control his knife or subdue him. This isn't quite the same as #2. #2 means your first move immediately subdues his ability to cut you; This is more of a rush where you are trying to overwhelm him with attacks. If you are trained, this may be a better option for you then #3, but this one is even more problamatic then the first three options. Even if you are trained well, you have put yourself in a spot where you will either overcome your attacker, or die trying, period. With #2 your attacker is subdued, with #3 you are at least buying yourself time for an escape, or for an object in your hand that will put the odds in your favor. By rushing in with every technique you know to stop him, you have no chance of surviving if you are not successful. Even if you are successful, you will most likely take serious wounds in the process.

This is not recomended, and definatily not as a 1st choice. If you try to run and are unsucessful, you can try options 2-4. If you try option #2, you may be able to try another option if your not dead. If you try #3, you may be able to survive with only non fatal cuts as you buy yourself time to run or subdue. With this option, option 4, failure assures your death. Retreating to another option is not really possible with this choice.

#5. Stand there and let your attacker kill you. This is an option, but it is not a good choice for anyone.

Sources:

Now someone might like some sources to back up my arguements here. If you are skeptical, then provide some sources supporting your arguements.

1. Fairborns "Get Tough" vividly expresses the dangers of empty hand vs. knife.

2. Other WWII combatives by Faiborn, Sykes, or Applegate are good sources.

3. Works by Marc Macyoung are provided in a previous link above on this thread. The language is a little salty, but it is well researched.

4. "Put em' Down, Take em Out: knife fighting from Falson Prison by Don Pentacost.

5. "Attack Proof" by John Perkins has some stuff on knife supporting what I say.

6. "Surviving edges weapons" is a training video for LEO by Calibre Press, vividly illustrating the dangers of the blade.

7. Paul Vunak expresses well the dangers of empty hand vs. knife in his works.

8. Works by James Keating I believe also expresses well the dangers of the blade.

9. I also believe Author Sammy Franco has addressed the fantasy of "knife fighting".

10. Knife Fighting: A practical Course" by Micheal Janich.

11.Hock Hockiems SFC webite.

12. Shizz...you need more? Check out qualified Modern Arnis, Sayok Kali, Pekiti Tersia, or any credable knife system out there...they will support the idea that going against a knife empty handed is suicidal at best.

The sources, everywhere you look, are in favor of the idea that it isn't wise to go into a knife fight empty handed (hell...it isn't wise to go into a knife fight at all!). You will be hard pressed to find any credable information to the contrary! :soapbox:

:asian:

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
Mods: I am not angry or attampting to break the rules in this thread. If I have or do cross the line, please PM me so I can redirect my responses. It isn't worth getting in trouble over this conversation...thanks.

Being completely disrespectful does break the rules of this thread, and also offends another MAist and human beings, which is not consistent with martial arts in general.

Originally posted by PAUL
You are saying that empty handed you can close on the knife player without difficulty because of your extensive training. I am saying your wrong, and you can't. The odds just aren't in your favor. You can disagree with me if you'd like, but most people who train realistic knife tactics will disagree with you as well. Don't worry, at the end of my post I'll provide you with some sources.

Actually, I never said anything about "without difficulty" in any of my responses about closing the gap. Odds mean nothing in a fight. I'm sorry if you think differently, we differ there. Lets leave it at that.

Originally posted by PAUL
I am just being honest by saying that my experience doesn't coincide with yours. I think that you will find that many others agree with me as well.

Thats acceptable, I'm sure I can find many who would agree with mine as well. That means nothing in your mentality, because no one of any experience or "fame" in anything other than your art or knife arts, has any legitimacy with you. We've seen that by your posts using " " around the word master talking about those who are considered masters in Kung Fu. I would suggest you meeting just one of them. Seeing them in action, you would see some legitimacy.

Originally posted by PAUL
This is a fact, not an embelishment. Yet, even as such, I don't feel that my ability to "crush someones knee," (or anything of the like) is foulproof, or even completely reliable. And yes, I know that there are many different ways to kick a knee. And I don't need to talk to an expert in the medical field; I know that a crushing blow to the side or even back of the knee that causes the knee to collapse into a hard surface (like pavement) could be devistating to the point of broken bones, torn ligaments, muscles, and tendons. We are talking about that knee not working right again if done in such a devistating manner. However, you say that you can do this the same way someone says that they can "knock the person out in one punch". You seem to have forgotten that the human body can move around, and the knee can resist being stomped into the pavement. Thinking that you will do this in one easy kick is as arrogent and unrealistic as thinking that you'll knock him out in 1 punch, or that your'll collapse his throat in one strike. To think such a thing seems arrogent and niave to me.

I assume you mean foolproof, and I never said anything close to any of my techniques being foolproof. Thats two misquotes already. From what you are saying, I think you do need to speak with a professional in the medial field. I am one, and I can tell you have some unrealistic expectations of your body. Lets go to the third misquote. I never said anything about me being able to do this in one kick, two kicks, or even 143564 kicks. Your attacking me personally because of my beliefs. That is very typical of someone who is lying or unbelievable. I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying lets stick to facts, and the discussion. I never said I could do it in one easy kick. That makes four misquotes. What I did say was in the mantis system we keep going until it is over. That may mean 432453 kicks, but the kicks wont stop until its over.

Originally posted by PAUL
Yes, I was suggesting fighting full contact (something that a MMArtist who competes is used to) and allowing knee kicks. Know why? Because a. There are many MMArtists who would be crazy enough to spar you like that, and would WANT TO spar you if you told them about the poweress of your knee kicks, and b. despite what you think, I'd say you have only a small percent chance of doing any damage to his knee before he takes you down. If what I think is true, then what do you think a knife person will do to you before your able to get near his knee?

Thats just not smart. Full contact is fine, I do that allot. Do you allow elbow breaks, and eyes gouges when you fight full contact? I would assume, since your reading this, that you don't. I also never said I had a prowess for knee kicks. You made this about a knee kick. There are a million techniques for defending yourself against an armed assailant, or an unarmed one. A knee kick would be just one of those. Misquote #5. We can differ on the percentage of actual knee kicks that work, but I suggest you training just a little bit under a legitimate mantis sifu and you will learn the effectiveness of knee kicks.

Originally posted by PAUL
Now if you want to do a safer experiment, do what I have done. Find a powerful kicker. Put on a knee pad so the impact of his heel won't damage your bone. Get in a bent kneed stance...as if your were fighting, and let the person stand on the side of your knee. If your resisting, you will find that it won't collapse. Next. Have the person start with light kicks, gradually increasing the strength until he can deliver full out blows. What you'll find with this excersise is 2 very important things. A. It hurts to get kicked in the knee, so there is no doubt that this is a good place to aim in a fight. B. If your resisting, your knee isn't being "crushed into the pavement" as the martial arts myth would claim. The fact is, you could probably continue to fight after being kicked (even without a knee pad) unless he kicked you "just right".

This is the stuff that proliferates false beliefs. I can focus on my knee and sit there ready for you to kick it and probably withstand any kick. In a fight, where you are overextended and not expecting a knee kick because someone's fist is also in your throat or eye, a good kick to the knee is a different story.

Originally posted by PAUL
Bottom line here is that your ability to crush a knee, throat, limb, or whatever is NOT a sure thing; and if you think it is, your being niave and arrogent, in my opinion. The ability for a knife to cut flesh IS a sure thing. This puts the odds in favor of the knife wielder, regardless of training. To put it in idiot terms knife guy makes contact with knife blade to your flesh, you are garunteed to be cut. You make contact with your foot on knife guys knee...no garuntees! Got it?

I got it, you like to misquote. That makes #6. I never said anything I have ever done or will do is a sure thing. The ability for a knife to cut flesh is a sure thing, the ability for you to use a knife to cut someone else's flesh is certainly not a sure thing. I understand that a technique is not a sure thing, but then nothing in a fight is a sure thing, that is a fact.

Originally posted by PAUL
You said I am being disrespectful. Which part? The part about fuk m upp temple? Or the part about me training an amature for 15 minutes with a blade, and that amature being able cut up you or your instructors more times then not with a blade if they are going empty hand?

If it was my little joke about the temple, well, relax. It was a tounge and cheek comment, not to be confused with me disrespecting your linage or art...that is not my intent. I'll apoligize if this was your problem.

However, if you thought the part about me saying that I feel that I could train someone with average athletic abilities for 15 minutes to dice you or your instructors up if they go empty handed more often then not, then that is your problem not mine. This is just the way I feel about the circumstance...and I am not changing my mind until I am someone proves me wrong. I don't mean it as disrespect; that's just the way I feel.

I think your comment about the temple, your usage of " " around the word master and your general disrespect for anything you don't believe, is offensive and goes against this thread and martial arts in general. Its ok though, I'm not mad at you. I understand where your coming from. Its hard to believe something and hear that someone else's beliefs differently and not try to destroy their credibility. For you to say you could train someone for 15 minutes and they would "dice up" anyone you have never met is not only immature, but inexperienced. To presume to know that you could beat anyone at anytime, is not realistic.

Originally posted by PAUL
I am not twisting anything around to try to make you sound uncredable. You continue to say more and more things that I believe is completely incorrect. I have maintained this position since the beginning of the topic. I have not changed my mind, backtracked, mislead, or "twisted" anything here. Anything that "sounds" uncredable or "retarded" only sounds that way because of the way your said it.

I'm not saying anything you think is completely incorrect, I'm only saying that you are refusing to look at the total picture of some things you blindly believe in. About not twisting things, aren't we on misquote #6 already?

Originally posted by PAUL
Speaking of uncredable statements, I am noticing that you have contradicted yourself more then once in both this thread, and the previous thread on the subject. An example would be when you said in your last post, "I have never said anything about shattering anything on contact..." Yet, when you say things like, "My point is that even if you cut me three times with it in the process, I still would have shattered a knee and crushed a windpipe. I just dont see it being a weapon of choice." Followed up later with this claim, "The head trauma surgeon for Mother Francis Hospital Services happens to work out with us here at the school and he seems to think about 8 or 10 pounds of pressure appropriately placed would not only crush someone's attack, but possible sever the arteries around the knee causing massive internal bleed out and death within 8 or 10 hours if not treated." It sure sounds like you are contradicting yourself, doesn't it? Or how about, " I don't believe that my method of "sparring" [training, etc.] supercedes anyone's." Yet previously you stated, "Thats ok, I have seen other schools train, from TKD, CMA, FMA, BJJ, MMA, and from watching them I am more convinced that my training is one of the most realistic I have come across. I'm not talking about "trading notes" but realistic hardcore training." This sure sounds like your contradicting yourself again.

Those are absolutely not contradictory. Saying a knee could be shattered, is not saying how it would be shattered. A knee can break in a variety of ways, not only by shattering on contact.
Saying my training is one of the most realistic I have seen, in no way says my method of sparring is better than anyone's. Your reading my word already assuming you know what I'm trying to say. I say, just open your mind a little and read it all before making assumptions as to what I'm saying.

Originally posted by PAUL
On that note, I am just going to be franks to say that it would appear that, at least with this topic, that you are way out of your element. If I were you I'd back it up, do more research, and come up with a more informed opinion rather then trying to back up possible mistakes in what you have said. I am sure this sounds arrogent as hell for me to say this, but this is just what I think needs to be done. I've done it before myself. People will only respect you more for it.

You can believe I'm out of my element, thats ok, I can handle that. How do you suggest I "back it up"? I have done research on this topic quite completely, you are the one refusing to talk to any professionals about this issue. I did talk to my Sifu, my sihings, and my sifu spoke with his Sifu. That is doing research to have a more informed opinion. Oh, I forgot, you would "dice them all up" so their opinion or Sigung Fogg's 43 years of experience mean nothing.

I suggest we end this discussion, because this is getting off topic into personal attacks, and that doesn't help anyone.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
What they are forgetting is the fact that "time" is not in your favor if you are empty hand vs. knife. Fighting someone with a knife is like playing russian ruelette(sp?); it is only a matter of time before you are cut or killed. So, the longer the situation lasts, the more likely it is for the empty hand fighter to be cut up and/or killed.

don't look now, but you just agreed with me!! That is exactly right. I in no way am suggesting fighting a guy with a knife, I'm just giving my opinion on the situation if it were upon me.

Originally posted by PAUL
The sources, everywhere you look, are in favor of the idea that it isn't wise to go into a knife fight empty handed (hell...it isn't wise to go into a knife fight at all!). You will be hard pressed to find any credable information to the contrary! :soapbox:

There we go again!! I completely agree with you.

7sm

 

[Cruentus]

#1. I haven't misquoted you at all. I only "quoted" things that you have actually said. I didn't "QUOTE" words like foolproof implying that you actually said that. You did, however, IMPLY certian things with the manner in which you said certian things. I have been responding to that, and quite effectively.

I haven't misquoted you. If you ment to say something differently then the way it sounded, then just say so. Accusing me of "misquoting you" when it isn't true isn't really helping your case much.

#2. So you took certian things as insulting. This is not my problem. I have not called you a name, or slammed on your style, or even your skill, or your sifu's. I have stated my opinions, which you disagree on. One of those happends to be my believe that yes, I can train person with average athletic ability for about 15 minutes to be able to cut up your teacher with 43 years of experience over 50% of the time (provided he goes empty hand vs. knife). This isn't a slam on your sifu's skill level; It only illustrates the dangers of a blade.

Now...how do I know this is true? Well, I have had people take me up on the offer before. Granted, they weren't grandmasters, but never-the-less, I haven't been proven wrong. I know "grandmasters" who would not/will not take me up on the offer. Some of these are/have been my teachers. They all say the same thing: basically that there is no point because going against a knife empty handed means "you will be cut". THis is just a fact of life that hasn't been proven wrong to me yet. With all do respect, if your teachers or any teacher can prove it wrong, then Ill train in that style.

#3 I have met real "masters" in Kung Fu. I had a friend who trained in China, Gueghou (I can't spell it, but it is by Hunan) province. His teacher was noted as being the most skilled in the province. I met him; his skill far superceeded mine, especially at the time.We played around a little. He was awesome. Yet, He even knew that you are at an extreme disadvantage empty hand against a knife wielding attacker.

#4. I understand the "effectiveness of knee kicks." That is not the point. The point is that blade is garunteed to cut if contacting flesh. You knee kick is not garunteed to be effective when contacting on the knee. This is a fact.

#5. Sources: What your Sifu's Sifu said is not really a source that I, or MT members can observe. If you can find where someone has written something credable on the subject that supports your beliefs that you could be at an advantage empty hand vs. knife. I think you'll be hard pressed to find anything supporting what you say.

#6. I am not going to sit here and say "gee, maybe we are saying the same thing after all..." and go along my merry little way. You've opened this can of worms, causing me to waste my time on the subject because I don't want the uninformed reader to be mislead by statements that I feel are innacurate or misleading. We may agree on some points, but we have certainly disagreed on the idea that going against a knife empty handed is a good idea even if you are trained, and we certainly have different ideas on the dangers of a knife wielding attacker.

One of us is correct, and one of us isn't. Why don't you print the entire thread, and give it to your Sifu to read...then see what he says? Check out some sources by the authors I have given. Talk to law enforcement or military people who have had experiences. Talk to credable knife or self defense instructors. Do some experiments on your own. Or how about take a day break, and reread this thread later?

Perhaps when you have done one or more of these things, you'll be able to admit that perhaps you have said some things that have been not worded well, misleading perhaps, or parhaps outright wrong? I don't know...but I think you will be seen as the better man for it.

PAUL

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by PAUL
#1. I haven't misquoted you at all. I only "quoted" things that you have actually said. I didn't "QUOTE" words like foolproof implying that you actually said that. You did, however, IMPLY certian things with the manner in which you said certian things. I have been responding to that, and quite effectively.

I haven't misquoted you. If you ment to say something differently then the way it sounded, then just say so. Accusing me of "misquoting you" when it isn't true isn't really helping your case much.

Lets take a look back.....

Originally posted by PAUL
You are saying that empty handed you can close on the knife player without difficulty because of your extensive training

Originally posted by PAUL
Thinking that you will do this in one easy kick is as arrogent and unrealistic as thinking that you'll knock him out in 1 punch, or that your'll collapse his throat in one strike.

Thats two examples of when you misquoted me, I'm to tired to sift through and find the rest. Lets let that argument die shall we?

Originally posted by PAUL
So you took certian things as insulting. This is not my problem. I have not called you a name, or slammed on your style, or even your skill, or your sifu's. I have stated my opinions, which you disagree on. One of those happends to be my believe that yes, I can train person with average athletic ability for about 15 minutes to be able to cut up your teacher with 43 years of experience over 50% of the time (provided he goes empty hand vs. knife). This isn't a slam on your sifu's skill level; It only illustrates the dangers of a blade.

To say that you can teach an average person in 15 minutes to beat anyone of 42 years of experience is not only insulting it is downright arrogant. I suggest you do some research on whom I'm talking about before you claim such arogent claims.

Originally posted by PAUL
Now...how do I know this is true? Well, I have had people take me up on the offer before. Granted, they weren't grandmasters, but never-the-less, I haven't been proven wrong. I know "grandmasters" who would not/will not take me up on the offer. Some of these are/have been my teachers. They all say the same thing: basically that there is no point because going against a knife empty handed means "you will be cut". THis is just a fact of life that hasn't been proven wrong to me yet. With all do respect, if your teachers or any teacher can prove it wrong, then Ill train in that style.

Your in such a frenzy to prove yourself right, your still missing things I have said. I said myself a knife fight means you will most likely be cut. I never said anything about defending against a knife and not getting cut, its almost a given. If you would switch your style because of being beaten, implies that you have never been beaten, and that implies you have never truly fought. I'm not saying you haven't, I'm just saying your kind of getting overboard on this thread.

Originally posted by PAUL
I have met real "masters" in Kung Fu. I had a friend who trained in China, Gueghou (I can't spell it, but it is by Hunan) province. His teacher was noted as being the most skilled in the province. I met him; his skill far superceeded mine, especially at the time.We played around a little. He was awesome. Yet, He even knew that you are at an extreme disadvantage empty hand against a knife wielding attacker.

I'm getting tired of restating everything I have allready said. I was the first to say your at an extreme disadvantage goign against a knife. Proving that will only prove me to be right. Sure you want to do that? Would you care to name any of these Masters you trained with?

Originally posted by PAUL
I am not going to sit here and say "gee, maybe we are saying the same thing after all..." and go along my merry little way. You've opened this can of worms, causing me to waste my time on the subject because I don't want the uninformed reader to be mislead by statements that I feel are innacurate or misleading. We may agree on some points, but we have certainly disagreed on the idea that going against a knife empty handed is a good idea even if you are trained, and we certainly have different ideas on the dangers of a knife wielding attacker.

Calm down man, its not going to kill you to agree with me on some points. Now I'm causing you to waste your time...thats a good one.

Originally posted by PAUL
One of us is correct, and one of us isn't. Why don't you print the entire thread, and give it to your Sifu to read...then see what he says? Check out some sources by the authors I have given. Talk to law enforcement or military people who have had experiences. Talk to credable knife or self defense instructors. Do some experiments on your own. Or how about take a day break, and reread this thread later?

Perhaps when you have done one or more of these things, you'll be able to admit that perhaps you have said some things that have been not worded well, misleading perhaps, or parhaps outright wrong? I don't know...but I think you will be seen as the better man for it.

I can see how you look at things, and thats cool, I just wish you could be more open minded and accept more things that you do not understand, it will help your training I promise.
I have spoken with law enforcement officials, does the FBI Agent who works out at my school count? Your telling me to ask all these people about things, and yet refuse to ask anyone about your opinion. I can see who is really searching for true training here. Once again you make these large assumptions that I have not done the things you are "helping" me with by advising. I have done them. But I understand you cant let yourself believe that.
I don't claim to never type something not worded well, as I hope no one really does on here, as this medium is extremely hard to portray a true feeling or belief on.

I am done arguing back and forth about who is better or right. I did enjoy the rousing conversation and discussion back when it was still about the topic however. Lets put this behind us, and either continue the discussion in an adult manner or lets get a mod to lock the thread and be done with it. No one is being helped by us trying to tear eacch other down. As fellow MAist, we should be helping each other, not trying to hurt each other.

7sm

 

[arnisador]

There was definitely some good info. in these threads, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better once again to start a new thread, focused on a narrow area of this discussion.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

We have all dodged punches before, why is dodging a knife attack any different?

Oh, its not the dodging that's the problem. Its the getting hit.

All of us here have been hit and taken it. Some of us have taken and survived some fairly heavy shots.

One can't do that with a knife.

You can not take a shot with a knife...unless you're wearing plate or chain mail armor. The stuff is expensive...and heavy. And it simply doesn't go with ANYTHING in a contemporary wardrobe!

I still hold the view that if someone comes at me with a boxcutter that has a what 1" blade at best, I would be able to defend myself quite well.

I'm in no position to question your skills. Know, however, that a one inch box cutter can access your carotid artery, your eye, your femoral artery, your ulnar nerve, your radial nerve (both, if cut, cause paralysis of the hand/arm), and it can easily sever the belly of most of the muscle groups in your thighs, arms, and trunk. It can disembowel you, leaving your intestines dangling down your knees like a skirt.

Why if the knife is so dangerous, does it lose a bit of impossibility when faced with another knife?

When you have a knife as well as your attacker, your potential lethality has been increased enormously from when you were empty handed. He can still win if he has greater skill, attributes, luck, whatever. In truth, you might lose miserably whether you have a knife or not. Your odds have increased, though, if you have such a weapon and intend to use it. A mistimed kick or strike that glances off or fails to deliver sufficient power does little more than irritate. A mistimed cut that lands lightly can sever a tendon, ending the altercation.

I still don't see why me picking up a knife is going to change all this evidence of how dangerous a knife is.

It makes his knife no less dangerous. It makes you MUCH more dangerous. If you get the incapacitating shot on him first, you might win. This is assuming you haven't been fatally cut.

Now...much of this parrots what Paul and others have said. I'm throwing in with it just to back them up.

My blade of choice? If I had a choice? Maybe my Strider Valkyrie. It has a nine inch blade. Maybe my Battle Sickle...it has a curved blade and is huge. I have a stainless steel bolo that is surgically sharp and about two feet long. I have a Ka-Bar. Any of these will take a hand off at the wrist. I'd MUCH rather have them than nothing. It in no way makes his blade less deadly...but it makes me far more lethal.

Although the Glock 27 is easier to carry than those. Today I was carrying it AND two Benchmade Griptilians. One for each pocket.

Steve Lamade wrote: BTW, in an informal survey of 1024 gladiators in the coliseum circa 256 A.D., 0.0% chose to enter the arena without their weapon. This survey had a margin of error of 0.5%.

LOL! Can I use that for one of my signatures?

HA!

Regards,

Steve

 

[KumaSan]

I know I haven't posted here in ages, but I put something towards the bottom of page one that wasn't even glanced at. Please look at it and give me some validation.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Oh, its not the dodging that's the problem. Its the getting hit.

All of us here have been hit and taken it. Some of us have taken and survived some fairly heavy shots.

One can't do that with a knife.

Thats a little strange out of context. I was refering to the ability of someone to backup and avoid being cut. You can back up and put space between you and not get cut.

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
I'm in no position to question your skills. Know, however, that a one inch box cutter can access your carotid artery, your eye, your femoral artery, your ulnar nerve, your radial nerve (both, if cut, cause paralysis of the hand/arm), and it can easily sever the belly of most of the muscle groups in your thighs, arms, and trunk. It can disembowel you, leaving your intestines dangling down your knees like a skirt.

Nice visual. This is all stuff I said as well.

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
It makes his knife no less dangerous. It makes you MUCH more dangerous. If you get the incapacitating shot on him first, you might win. This is assuming you haven't been fatally cut.
And a incapacitating first shot on him with an empty hand technique is not as incapacitating?

Now...much of this parrots what Paul and others have said. I'm throwing in with it just to back them up.

Yes, it does. I'm not sure what else we can talk about that differs from the actual topic. I'm not saying I can take anyone out, or suggesting anyone in the world ever fighting a knife weilding attacker. I'm just simply stating facts that it is possible to defend yourself and live against a knife.

7sm