We cant be taken to the ground

[JowGaWolf]

There's a lot of surprising stuff once you scratch the surface. For example, the following is WC. For some reason this guy didn't think it was hard enough as it is, so he's wearing a 50# weight vest!

I looked up this exercise and I noticed that many people have their feet turned outward. This decreases stability and it doesn't strengthen the correct leg muscles required to make that stance strong and rooted. The legs will get stronger but the stance won't have a strong root.

That exercise with the feet turning out strengthens the hamstrings instead of the quadriceps

Is there a reason why the feet are out like that in WC?

 

[drop bear]

This statement is, broadly speaking, true. A good, strong stance is essential. But there are many kinds of strength. The horse stance you use in Jow Ga is an example of one type of strength that provides an appropriate foundation to your system. WC's higher Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma or character two goat-riding stance provides a more flexible or yielding foundation, better suited to the WC system.

Flexible stances can be strong too. The deeper horse has the yang strength of the oak tree, while the YGKYM has the yin strength of bamboo. Each survives the storm according to it's nature.

Now how's that for fortune cookie wisdom!

Well again if you are slick you can do a narrow stance and still defend takedowns.

We do a half half witch is not a solution it is a compromise.

But when you defend a take down. You dont stay in stance. You ajust your stance to counter the take down.

If they have any skill they ajust the take down.

From there there is this race switching takedowns and stances untill someone wins.

 

[drop bear]

I looked up this exercise and I noticed that many people have their feet turned outward. This decreases stability and it doesn't strengthen the correct leg muscles required to make that stance strong and rooted. The legs will get stronger but the stance won't have a strong root.

I will try to get an answer from exercise guy. You are sugesting parallel feet are better structure?

 

[geezer]

I will try to get an answer from exercise guy. You are sugesting parallel feet are better structure?

@ Jow Ga and Drop Bear: Yes, parallel feet are the "correct" traditional way to do a horse stance in most CMA:

http://practicalhungkyun.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/practical-hung-kyun-stance-training-02.jpg

I do not know why the individual in the video has his feet turned out ...I got that clip on youtube, and it's from a different branch of the Ip Man lineage so I can only speculate.

As for myself, I have bone-fusions in my ankles that prevent lateral movement, and I'm duck -footed, that is, my feet naturally turn out that way. In fact the right foot turns out at about 20-30 degrees when my knee is pointing directly forward. One of my kung-fu teachers many years ago used to get very angry at my "lazy" horse stance until he found out that I physically could not do the "traditional" version. I asked if he could work around it. He said no, it was better that I go elsewhere.

...So, I ended up in WC where I can do the more upright YGKYM stance with it's internally adducted knees with only minor deviation from standard form.

Looking back, I do not believe that the parallel foot alignment in the Chinese horse stance or Ma Bo has any great advantage over the splayed foot horse used in some other martial arts:

http://zhkarate.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Shikodachi.jpg

I believe that aesthetics play a considerable role in these conventions. It kind of reminds me of the way my granddad, an old rancher, would scold me about how I rode a horse with my feet turned out "like Charlie Chaplin". It "just didn't look right and they would catch in the brush!" He was actually right about the last part. Other than that I like to think I rode pretty well for a dude from the city.

 

[Jake104]

Yeah but we are discussing two things here. One is that great big wide horse stance and two his ability to manage its short commings

So a horse stance like that probably is inherently open to all sorts of takedowns. But if he can compensate for them well great guns for him.

Sorry the ADHD is hard for me to stay focused. But I agree 100% with what you said.

 

[Jake104]

Does the chi gerk work independent of a trap? I saw a few videos and I couldn't tell if the traps were necessary for making sure that the person doesn't punch you while you do the technique or if these techniques could be done independently of the trap. Since these chi gerk looks like a close range technique I'm assuming that it is done with a trap or a clinch.
I have an idea about with the Huen ma. It looks similar to one of the movements I've seen before in other fighting systems. It's definitely one of those movements that I try to watch out for.

Trapping the legs yes. Trapping the hands not so much. Really depends on what hand trapping method we're talking about here? Hand or arm trapping as in application? Like maybe over hooking the arm then sweeping the legs, then yes? Trapping like tradition drilling teaches? Like folding over arms like origami, then no? Trapping is simple. If I have your arm or leg controlled it's a trap. Which is the practical version or goal of the traditional trap drilling in WC and will work. If I turn your arms into an origami pterodactyl then it may only work in training with a cooperative partner. Trapping the legs is something I like to do a lot. In both my throwing and standing chokes. I like to use my legs to disrupt structure.

If someone is throwing a punch, flowery hand or leg techniques are not as effective as controlling that persons COG and balance. Control and angle will a lot of times take care of the opponents attack. Why? Cause he'll be playing catch up trying to recover his structure and balance.

For example:
If I have an over hook and you punch with your free hand.

A:
If I'm square in front of you then we trade blows.

B:
But if I have an angle or flank a bit, as you punch i Jeun Ma. Well I may get the break but even better I make it impossible for you to punch. Plus it's all done with one arm. Remember I still have a free arm and I'm in a better position.

So trapping does work. If you don't fight arms but instead the whole unit.

 

[Jake104]

Well again if you are slick you can do a narrow stance and still defend takedowns.

We do a half half witch is not a solution it is a compromise.

But when you defend a take down. You dont stay in stance. You ajust your stance to counter the take down.

If they have any skill they ajust the take down.

From there there is this race switching takedowns and stances untill someone wins.

Again the ADHD. But what about attacking the take down with good downward foward intent? Stuffing? See I'm getting older and broken. So that's how we do it. We try and stuff if. We attack at contact. Not so much with strikes but with our weight combined with foward intent fighting for position using WC principles or full body chi sao.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I will try to get an answer from exercise guy. You are sugesting parallel feet are better structure?

Yes the parallel feet gives a better structure, so I'm wondering if there is another reason for having the feet turned out.

 

[drop bear]

Again the ADHD. But what about attacking the take down with good downward foward intent? Stuffing? See I'm getting older and broken. So that's how we do it. We try and stuff if. We attack at contact. Not so much with strikes but with our weight combined with foward intent fighting for position using WC principles or full body chi sao.

If you forward intent without sprawling you will get sucked into the takedown. Like this.

You can defend by making your hips lower than theirs. But it all just depends what you mean.

Here is an example of what I am sort of talking about. The throws don't come at one angle.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Your stance is a compromise.

I use a low horse stance in free sparring and what I'm saying is from experience and not from guessing at what I think it will do.
Do you use a low horse stance in free sparring? If not then you don't have the understanding of the horse stance in the same light that I do.

In my limited experience with low, wide stances, the first trade off is less mobility in return for greater stability. The images you've posted of yourself sparring in a low horse (by WC standards) suggest that this might be a problem, especially working against a lanky, evasive opponent.

It's possible to chase someone down while in a low horse stance but it's not easy. It requires a tremendous amount of leg muscle endurance and strength. That's one of the biggest weaknesses of the stance. Everything is fine with mobility when it's done in bursts, but we can't sustain that for long periods of times. For example, it's possible to move with the same speed and evasiveness that Floyd Mayweather uses, but it's only for a short period of time. I could chase someone 15 feet down the street at 20 feet my legs are burning and no longer able to move with efficiency.

Yes they targeted my knee and the stance is vulnerable to the kick if it comes from the side. It doesn't break the knee. It turns the knee inward (I actually had my kung fur brother kick me in the knee softly at first and then to gradually kick harder. The end result is that I went down to my knee and was kneeling with my back turned to him. I'm thinking that I'll need to either shuffle forward or towards the kick in order to prevent it. I haven't worked it out yet but I'm aware of not letting too many kicks to my leg to go unchallenged.

In general, as geezer points out, higher stances give better mobility and lower stances give better stability. For takedowns, getting lower than your opponent is a major advantage, even if it's not strictly necessary every single time.

This is why, in general, boxers fight from much higher stances than wrestlers. For evasive striking, the mobility from a higher stance is more important. For performing takedowns and avoiding being taken down, a lower stance is better. MMA fighters tend to look for a compromise between the two. (Judoka take a different approach, working from a higher stance for mobility when fighting outside, then dropping their weight to get under the opponent just as they enter for the throw.)

Jow Ga (and a number of other CMA) have an interesting approach, focusing on striking, but from a low stance that helps defend takedowns. I haven't done a ton of sparring against folks working from that stance. Given that I am a mediocre takedown artist, my first instinct would be to work my standup striking with evasive footwork and target the legs with kicks. I might look for takedowns if I saw the opportunity, but I wouldn't necessarily try to force them. On the other hand, high-level wrestlers will have spent a lot of time taking down opponents with an even lower center of gravity than you can get from a low horse stance, so they would probably feel a lot more comfortable forcing the takedown.

 

[JowGaWolf]

On the other hand, high-level wrestlers will have spent a lot of time taking down opponents with an even lower center of gravity than you can get from a low horse stance, so they would probably feel a lot more comfortable forcing the takedown.

keep in mind that they do this in the context that their opponent doesn't strike them and they aren't striking their opponent.

 

[Vajramusti]

I looked up this exercise and I noticed that many people have their feet turned outward. This decreases stability and it doesn't strengthen the correct leg muscles required to make that stance strong and rooted. The legs will get stronger but the stance won't have a strong root.

That exercise with the feet turning out strengthens the hamstrings instead of the quadriceps

Is there a reason why the feet are out like that in WC?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wong shon Leung used to practice battle punches.I sometimes do too. Wing chun has an extensive curriculum. Some exercises are for development of key attributes and do not immediately apply or self evident initially for fighting.
The classic archery war technique known as the Parthian shot involved similar motion. The Parthians on horseback in Iran(horse riding stance) would gallop a bit away from the enemy and then and fire their arrows turn their upper body-similar to the wing chun pulling punch theme.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

keep in mind that they do this in the context that their opponent doesn't strike them and they aren't striking their opponent.

Yep. However it's good to remember that

a) some wrestlers do have striking experience and know how to adapt to it and
b) really high level wrestlers have takedowns that are so hard and fast and sophisticated that unless you can reliably knock them out with a single strike, they are going to take you down even if you manage to land a punch as they come in.

A story from Mark Coleman might indicate something about the high-level wrestling mentality. As he tells it, one time (before their MMA careers) he was at a wrestling tournament with Kevin Randalman. Kevin won one of his matches, but in the process he got his jaw dislocated. The tournament officials told him he would not be allowed to fight his next match with the injury and so would end up forfeiting his chance of winning the tournament. So Kevin went to Mark and asked him "punch me in the jaw and see if you can knock it back into place." Mark (quite reasonably) refused to do this. So Kevin ran to the edge of the mat, put his face sidewise to the ground, and slammed the side of his face into the mat until he had knocked his jaw back in place. Then he went on to fight the rest of his matches.

Granted, Randalman is a bit crazy even for a wrestler, but this shows something about the toughness of high-level wrestlers and how hard it is going to be to stop them with a single punch.

 

[Buka]

Do any of you guys who use a low horse stance ever get your feet swept out from under you?

 

[geezer]

The classic archery war technique known as the Parthian shot involved similar motion. The Parthians on horseback in Iran(horse riding stance) would ...fire their arrows turn their upper body-similar to the wing chun pulling punch theme.

Parthian Archer

Wing Chun "Bow and Arrow punch" aka "Battle Punch":

See... I actually learn stuff on these forums. Thanks, Joy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do any of you guys who use a low horse stance ever get your feet swept out from under you?

The 50-50 horse stance is not a proper stance to be used to against foot sweep.

It has too

- much weight that's hard to lift your foot up to "escape" a sweep.
- less weight that's not strong enough to turn your shin bone to "against" a sweep.

If you have to switch a horse stance into an empty stance, or a bow-arrow stance, you are not using horse stance.

 

[drop bear]

keep in mind that they do this in the context that their opponent doesn't strike them and they aren't striking their opponent.

They do if they ever fight or Spar a striker. In fact wrestlers with some craptastic striking can still win fights by tying people up and taking them down.

When someone strikes they take their hands away from their hips. And so loose a level of protection. They also give that forward momentum. That let's baby get picked up so easily in that lift.
(Of course she has an advantage in that nobody puts her in a corner)

 

[drop bear]

Do any of you guys who use a low horse stance ever get your feet swept out from under you?

Yes. Capoeira is all horse stance pretty much.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Yes. Capoeira is all horse stance pretty much.

What I saw was several successful sweeps that would NOT have been successful if it weren't for the dancing footwork, wide stance, and their high center of gravity. Maybe that's pointing out the obvious though.

 

[drop bear]

What I saw was several successful sweeps that would NOT have been successful if it weren't for the dancing footwork, wide stance, and their high center of gravity. Maybe that's pointing out the obvious though.

Yeah. It is more pronounced there. But you have to move your feet. And when you do you will open yourself up. On the other side of that is the target foot also isnt just sitting there to be picked off either.