How Do You Avoid The Ground?
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Cirdan
Senior Master
If I may summarise Cirdan? Basically it's "fight like a ninja"
Thank you, I don`t carry any of those smoke bombs tho
Supra Vijai
Black Belt
Thank you, I don`t carry any of those smoke bombs tho
Haha neither, they tend to set of too many smoke alarms and the last thing you need is a noise trail showing which way you went during your escape
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hey, Steve,
In essence, I agree with you completely. However in the specifics I disagree. It may help if I clarify what I mean when I talk about realistic attacks, to the degree that this medium allows, so I'll try that.
This is kinda getting at what I mean when I'm talking about specifics here. Let's see how we go.
Ha, no offence taken, Steve. And as I said, in essence I agree with you completely. As to the problem I think you're refering to here (people not quite understanding what realistic attacks and training is), I see the same thing in a lot of things, really, so I'm with you there as well.
Yep, seen the same thing. So let's see if I can get across what I'm talking about, and where my understanding comes from.
First off, our classes are very much reflective of our "generalist" philosophy expressed in our system. To that end the class is split into three primary sections, being Traditional Unarmed Combat (techniques/drills taken from the various classical schools we train), Weaponry (most commonly traditional again, but can be modern, such as baton, knife, knife and pistol defence, and so on), and Modern Self Defence (which covers a large range of concepts and topics... realistically, you would need to be with us for at least two years to go through everything at least once). These classes are 1 1/2 hours long (due to restraint on the availability of the rooms hired), which means that each section is between 20 and 25 minutes, including instruction/explanation/demonstration. Add to that the fact that the classes are held once a week (in two locations, should the students want more class-time... highly recommended!), with a three week break over December/January. To do the maths on that, it means that actual class time for any given topic (broad topic, such as Modern Self Defence) is 25 minutes x 49 classes, which is about 20 hours a year. If you take that to a single topic (ground defence, for example), that comes down to less than an hour a year if the topic isn't covered more than once, which it frequently isn't. As a result, it's important that I cover the highest probability aspects for the students in the Modern section, and the highest-return/benefit aspects in the less-practical sections of Weaponry and Traditional.
This is one of the realities of a generalist system, unfortunately, and why I tell my guys that home training is vital. Class time just isn't enough.
So with this restriction on time availablity to dedicate to a particular skill-set, the most important thing is that I don't waste time with training that is low-percentage, in terms of applicability, as well as in terms of what they will most likely come up against, should it ever get to a real encounter. And, very simply, the odds of the attacker being a trained, skilled grappler are minimalist compared to a less-skilled, but highly committed thug/street predator/drunken fool. So to train against skilled, trained attacks can honestly be wasting their time.
What is more likely to be encountered is a sudden rush-tackle, or similar, rather than a skilled double-leg take down. Now, although they are similar, there are key differences that mean that training against the skilled version does not necessarily transfer across. I'll cover the differences in a second.
If self defence is indeed the goal, then the first thing that is needed is a clear unfiltered understanding of what that means. And what it means is to understand what the realities of your environment, what forms violence that may be encountered are present, what the laws in the environment are, having an understanding of the effects of adrenaline (on yourself, and just as importantly, on your opponent/s), understanding the psychology, and so on. And, honestly, that rules out the idea of training to defeat or win against a trained person, whether BJJ, Judo, Wrestler, or whatever, mainly because the odds of having that kind of person attack are simply not very high. But let's look at the differences.
A skilled attacker will, surprising, use skill. By that I mean they will have proper, strong grips, they will use a great degree of leverage, they will remain balanced, they will come in for specific movements/techniques. An unskilled "thug", to use that term to cover the vast majority of attacks and attackers, will rarely go for a proper grip, will use a barrowing momentum (a la a football/rugby tackle) rather than leverage, won't have specific techniques in mind, will not be balanced, and so on. What spoils a skilled takedown (from a Judoka, for instance) won't necessarily spoil that of a rush-tackle, and vice versa.
As a result, training with skilled experienced grapplers can get you good (or at least comfortable) against skilled experienced grapplers... but that's not why we train. We train for a street thug, who gets upset, shoves you hard in the chest, and dives in with a sudden rush tackle, ending with you both on the ground, whether by design or just as a result of the momentum. Typically, it's a control from them, and a way to ensure you don't go anywhere, or a way simply to avoid letting you hit them (a defensive action to stop themselves getting hurt). So it's a committed action, but the reasons for it are rather different to the reasons for an experienced grappler to attack, and as a result the actions are different as well.
When it comes to what we class as fast, realistic attacks, it is exactly what I said above. 110% committed to an action, sudden dive for a tackle, and so on. If you miss your strikes on their way in, you're going to get collected by the tackle, no two ways about it. And if that happens, you're probably going to go to the ground. But that type of attacker won't suddenly turn into a great ground fighter, they'll typically just start trying to hit you. Lots. So our ground work then centres on wearing/handling the incoming blows, and moving from there.
For the record, I've done my time in BJJ, as have our other seniors (in BJJ, MMA, Wrestling, and so forth, depending on the person), each time bringing aspects back, such as better mechanics, escapes, and so forth. So I've got a bit of experience with these systems, however something that has not been brought back was the attacking methods of these systems, as it goes against what we train for. Oh, and I ensure the attacks are realistic myself, if my guys aren't attacking properly, then it's demonstrated for them. Properly. As well, obviously, as any flaws in what they're doing. So the attacks need to be serious, they need to be realistic, they need to be committed, but they do not need to be skilled experienced grapplers if that is not what is likely to be encountered.
Did that make more sense to you?
In essence, I agree with you completely. However in the specifics I disagree. It may help if I clarify what I mean when I talk about realistic attacks, to the degree that this medium allows, so I'll try that.
This is kinda getting at what I mean when I'm talking about specifics here. Let's see how we go.
Ha, no offence taken, Steve. And as I said, in essence I agree with you completely. As to the problem I think you're refering to here (people not quite understanding what realistic attacks and training is), I see the same thing in a lot of things, really, so I'm with you there as well.
Yep, seen the same thing. So let's see if I can get across what I'm talking about, and where my understanding comes from.
First off, our classes are very much reflective of our "generalist" philosophy expressed in our system. To that end the class is split into three primary sections, being Traditional Unarmed Combat (techniques/drills taken from the various classical schools we train), Weaponry (most commonly traditional again, but can be modern, such as baton, knife, knife and pistol defence, and so on), and Modern Self Defence (which covers a large range of concepts and topics... realistically, you would need to be with us for at least two years to go through everything at least once). These classes are 1 1/2 hours long (due to restraint on the availability of the rooms hired), which means that each section is between 20 and 25 minutes, including instruction/explanation/demonstration. Add to that the fact that the classes are held once a week (in two locations, should the students want more class-time... highly recommended!), with a three week break over December/January. To do the maths on that, it means that actual class time for any given topic (broad topic, such as Modern Self Defence) is 25 minutes x 49 classes, which is about 20 hours a year. If you take that to a single topic (ground defence, for example), that comes down to less than an hour a year if the topic isn't covered more than once, which it frequently isn't. As a result, it's important that I cover the highest probability aspects for the students in the Modern section, and the highest-return/benefit aspects in the less-practical sections of Weaponry and Traditional.
This is one of the realities of a generalist system, unfortunately, and why I tell my guys that home training is vital. Class time just isn't enough.
So with this restriction on time availablity to dedicate to a particular skill-set, the most important thing is that I don't waste time with training that is low-percentage, in terms of applicability, as well as in terms of what they will most likely come up against, should it ever get to a real encounter. And, very simply, the odds of the attacker being a trained, skilled grappler are minimalist compared to a less-skilled, but highly committed thug/street predator/drunken fool. So to train against skilled, trained attacks can honestly be wasting their time.
What is more likely to be encountered is a sudden rush-tackle, or similar, rather than a skilled double-leg take down. Now, although they are similar, there are key differences that mean that training against the skilled version does not necessarily transfer across. I'll cover the differences in a second.
If self defence is indeed the goal, then the first thing that is needed is a clear unfiltered understanding of what that means. And what it means is to understand what the realities of your environment, what forms violence that may be encountered are present, what the laws in the environment are, having an understanding of the effects of adrenaline (on yourself, and just as importantly, on your opponent/s), understanding the psychology, and so on. And, honestly, that rules out the idea of training to defeat or win against a trained person, whether BJJ, Judo, Wrestler, or whatever, mainly because the odds of having that kind of person attack are simply not very high. But let's look at the differences.
A skilled attacker will, surprising, use skill. By that I mean they will have proper, strong grips, they will use a great degree of leverage, they will remain balanced, they will come in for specific movements/techniques. An unskilled "thug", to use that term to cover the vast majority of attacks and attackers, will rarely go for a proper grip, will use a barrowing momentum (a la a football/rugby tackle) rather than leverage, won't have specific techniques in mind, will not be balanced, and so on. What spoils a skilled takedown (from a Judoka, for instance) won't necessarily spoil that of a rush-tackle, and vice versa.
As a result, training with skilled experienced grapplers can get you good (or at least comfortable) against skilled experienced grapplers... but that's not why we train. We train for a street thug, who gets upset, shoves you hard in the chest, and dives in with a sudden rush tackle, ending with you both on the ground, whether by design or just as a result of the momentum. Typically, it's a control from them, and a way to ensure you don't go anywhere, or a way simply to avoid letting you hit them (a defensive action to stop themselves getting hurt). So it's a committed action, but the reasons for it are rather different to the reasons for an experienced grappler to attack, and as a result the actions are different as well.
When it comes to what we class as fast, realistic attacks, it is exactly what I said above. 110% committed to an action, sudden dive for a tackle, and so on. If you miss your strikes on their way in, you're going to get collected by the tackle, no two ways about it. And if that happens, you're probably going to go to the ground. But that type of attacker won't suddenly turn into a great ground fighter, they'll typically just start trying to hit you. Lots. So our ground work then centres on wearing/handling the incoming blows, and moving from there.
For the record, I've done my time in BJJ, as have our other seniors (in BJJ, MMA, Wrestling, and so forth, depending on the person), each time bringing aspects back, such as better mechanics, escapes, and so forth. So I've got a bit of experience with these systems, however something that has not been brought back was the attacking methods of these systems, as it goes against what we train for. Oh, and I ensure the attacks are realistic myself, if my guys aren't attacking properly, then it's demonstrated for them. Properly. As well, obviously, as any flaws in what they're doing. So the attacks need to be serious, they need to be realistic, they need to be committed, but they do not need to be skilled experienced grapplers if that is not what is likely to be encountered.
Did that make more sense to you?
Cirdan
Senior Master
Sounds like you spread yourselves awfully thin. It also fits with what I`ve seen of Bujinkan demonstrations, a lot of different stuff is done (defense with a cane, throwing swords to each other, gun disarms etc) but not much of is seems well practiced (except ukemi). Not to critizise but how is one hour of ground defence in a year going to help?
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hey Cirdan,
Yeah, I know how it sounds there. And honestly, as I said, that's one of the issues with a generalist system, a specialist will always take apart a generalist if it stays in the specialist's area of choice for the very reasons that they spend more time there, are far more comfortable, more experienced, more skilled, and so on. Of course, the issue for them is that their choices are limited. Neither approach is perfect, but both can be trained in a way that are highly effective and productive, and certain methods will suit one person more than another.
In terms of spreading ourselves thin, the way we minimise the issues that that can bring in by training the basic principles over and over again, with everything dove-tailing into each other. For example, our knife work and knife defence are basically the same, and the principles for that are taken into other weapon use, defence, and so on. So while the application changes (this month is ground defence, last month was knife survival, before that was what we call Fight Science, which is an application of our strategies and tactics against common assault types, including our defences against takedowns, and so on) the basic principles remain constant. The other aspect that remains constant is that we train the basics for probably 90%+ of the time. We then hold Special Workshops which are intensive classes on a single topic throughout the year, allowing the students to get a deeper approach to a subject.
Oh, and for clarification, we aren't Bujinkan, even though we were the original Bujinkan schools in Australia. We left about 10 years ago.
Yeah, I know how it sounds there. And honestly, as I said, that's one of the issues with a generalist system, a specialist will always take apart a generalist if it stays in the specialist's area of choice for the very reasons that they spend more time there, are far more comfortable, more experienced, more skilled, and so on. Of course, the issue for them is that their choices are limited. Neither approach is perfect, but both can be trained in a way that are highly effective and productive, and certain methods will suit one person more than another.
In terms of spreading ourselves thin, the way we minimise the issues that that can bring in by training the basic principles over and over again, with everything dove-tailing into each other. For example, our knife work and knife defence are basically the same, and the principles for that are taken into other weapon use, defence, and so on. So while the application changes (this month is ground defence, last month was knife survival, before that was what we call Fight Science, which is an application of our strategies and tactics against common assault types, including our defences against takedowns, and so on) the basic principles remain constant. The other aspect that remains constant is that we train the basics for probably 90%+ of the time. We then hold Special Workshops which are intensive classes on a single topic throughout the year, allowing the students to get a deeper approach to a subject.
Oh, and for clarification, we aren't Bujinkan, even though we were the original Bujinkan schools in Australia. We left about 10 years ago.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I don't know, guys. Just to be up front, I don't train specifically for self defense. I train for fitness and fun. But it would seem to me that, unless a weapon is involved, pulling a grappler in tight is a bad idea all the way around. We train that literally every single class. While there are exceptions to every rule, in general, the guy on top is trying to eliminate space while the guy on the bottom is trying to create space. If I can create space to work sweeps or submissions on guys who have been training BJJ for 3+ years, I'm pretty confident that your attempts to control space will come up a little short.
Once again, I'm not suggesting that you guys train BJJ, wrestling, judo or sambo. I'm just saying that if you haven't actually worked these techniques out on competent grapplers, you really have no idea if they'll work in a pinch.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #29
Hey Chris,
Great points as always. Question for you. Having had similar discussions with other MAists, I've had some people say that while the majority of attackers will probably be of the untrained category, they prefer to train against the skilled attacker. I'm assuming reason being that its better to be over than under prepared.
I have a few take down defenses in Kenpo. Probably pretty effective against the average Joe, but against someone really trained in a grappling based art, I'll probably land on my rear, unless I make some changes....changes that I'll probably only get from working with a grappler. I feel confident enough with the move, but I'd like to supercharge it up a bit.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Excellent. Sometimes, what appears to be common sense to me isn't seen that way by others.
This has come up in other threads and may be a cultural difference. Wrestling is very common in America and I'd say that the odds of someone having some wrestling training from school is pretty good here. While they may not be former collegiate All-American wrestlers, the chances of a drunk thug having had some experience wrestling is better than even. That may not be the case in Europe or Australia.
Add to this that judo is actually gaining traction in schools, too, and you've got a lot of kids exposed to grappling early. I know that our local high schools have judo clubs and we've had several teenagers join my BJJ school with 2 or 3 years of judo under their belts.
I'll cede the point since you train for self defense and I don't, but I will say that it doesn't make sense to me. After training against competent grapplers, controlling someone without any experience is simple. Training to defend against wrestlers will only make defending oneself from an untrained bull rush easier, not harder.
I don't know how much time you've spent training BJJ, but I'm glad to hear it. I want to be clear, though, that I'm not suggesting that you train BJJ or wrestling, attack like a luchador or anything like that. What I'm saying is that, periodically, it seems like it would be a good idea to pressure test your techniques against competent grapplers as opposed to working them out against your own guys who may or may not be able to replicate a "realistic" attack.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I know this is serious conversation but ever since I saw the title
How Do You Avoid The Ground?
I have had to restrain from posting this
sorry...I'll go now
How Do You Avoid The Ground?
I have had to restrain from posting this
sorry...I'll go now
OP
- Thread Starter
- #32
Excellent. Sometimes, what appears to be common sense to me isn't seen that way by others.
Add to this that judo is actually gaining traction in schools, too, and you've got a lot of kids exposed to grappling early. I know that our local high schools have judo clubs and we've had several teenagers join my BJJ school with 2 or 3 years of judo under their belts. I'll cede the point since you train for self defense and I don't, but I will say that it doesn't make sense to me. After training against competent grapplers, controlling someone without any experience is simple. Training to defend against wrestlers will only make defending oneself from an untrained bull rush easier, not harder.
I don't know how much time you've spent training BJJ, but I'm glad to hear it. I want to be clear, though, that I'm not suggesting that you train BJJ or wrestling, attack like a luchador or anything like that. What I'm saying is that, periodically, it seems like it would be a good idea to pressure test your techniques against competent grapplers as opposed to working them out against your own guys who may or may not be able to replicate a "realistic" attack.
Thus probably the #1 reason why I personally, like to work with other arts. And to add to this....a friend of mine who is a BJJ Brown belt, has his own school, teaches a BJJ class, 1 night a week, at one of the local Universities. This goes back a few years now, but I recall one night when I was there, there were a handful of guys from the Wrestling team that showed up to take the class. Great bunch of guys, but they outweighed me and were stronger. More times than not, I found myself on the bottom. They were all new to BJJ, and again, while I'm no expert, I've done enough that I was able to survive, despite being on the bottom. All they were basically doing was holding me down, mainly due to the fact that they didn't know any subs. Lucky for me, I was able to hold my own, work some escapes, get myself to a better position and submit them.
The moral of that story was simply to emphasize what you were saying about it being possible that the average Joe, having some grappling background. Haven't seen much Judo taught in schools, but Wrestling is taught in alot of the larger high schools/Colleges, and there're MMA clubs all over the place.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Wrestling is available in most middle schools and high schools throughout the country. It's pervasive in the States (as you know). Judo might be a local thing, but I was pleased to see it.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/living/2004473072_judoside15.html
You ask what each of us does personally to avoid going to the ground so that makes this a personal preference issue. I practice a lot and try to vary what I training on/in so that, hopefully, I can be prepared for most of the situations that may arise. Cross-Training is part of it but, for me personally, I focus on what has worked for me in the past which in this case is kind of a EPAK/LE Defensive Tactics kind of fusion. This wont work for anyone but me as "I" use it.
If there was any advice I could give on this subject it would be to train realistically (as is possible) and often, and stay flexible to any given situation.
My .02 only.
Steve is spot on here. In order to have effective grapping skills you need to work with grapplers. Whether it is wrestling, bjj, sambo, etc. You need to practice your skill sets against someone that knows what they are doing!
Supra Vijai
Black Belt
Hi Steve,
As you mentioned, different approaches to training would probably be a big influence on how you react. From the sounds of it, in a sport aspect, you want to create space so you can move from there. With us, we bring them in close just long enough to restrict them from being able to hit you so we can move away. Also, we don't train submissions or chokes on the ground, we train to get up, get back to our feet where we are most comfortable and move from there. To liberally quote something from our class on Tuesday night "There is no such thing as a fair fight for us". Experienced wrestlers going for submissions etc are most likely trained in a mat environment with rules, referees etc and respond to things like tap outs - on an unconscious level. With the current "climate" in Australia relating to the street predator, wrestling in school is not common at all so the majority of street predators are relying on strength in numbers or sheer intimidation and brute strength. In neither of those situations would we want to be staying too long on the ground rolling around on broken glass or asphalt etc. I emphasize the we because that's just our approach and not going to suit everyone.
Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for the BJJ guys etc. Their fitness is unbelievable as is their technique. For example a friend of a friend of mine (for real) has won several titles and accolades in the Australian junior BJJ competitions for his weight class. He grappled my friend who is a fellow ninjutsu practitioner and got him to submit in about 6 seconds - my friend was already on the ground, had just finished grappling with someone else and then this person jumped in for fun. The chances of this guy getting into a street brawl though as a street predator are minimal to none and that's the mindset we go with in class especially given time constraints as mentioned earlier. Training at home however... now that's fun
As you mentioned, different approaches to training would probably be a big influence on how you react. From the sounds of it, in a sport aspect, you want to create space so you can move from there. With us, we bring them in close just long enough to restrict them from being able to hit you so we can move away. Also, we don't train submissions or chokes on the ground, we train to get up, get back to our feet where we are most comfortable and move from there. To liberally quote something from our class on Tuesday night "There is no such thing as a fair fight for us". Experienced wrestlers going for submissions etc are most likely trained in a mat environment with rules, referees etc and respond to things like tap outs - on an unconscious level. With the current "climate" in Australia relating to the street predator, wrestling in school is not common at all so the majority of street predators are relying on strength in numbers or sheer intimidation and brute strength. In neither of those situations would we want to be staying too long on the ground rolling around on broken glass or asphalt etc. I emphasize the we because that's just our approach and not going to suit everyone.
Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for the BJJ guys etc. Their fitness is unbelievable as is their technique. For example a friend of a friend of mine (for real) has won several titles and accolades in the Australian junior BJJ competitions for his weight class. He grappled my friend who is a fellow ninjutsu practitioner and got him to submit in about 6 seconds - my friend was already on the ground, had just finished grappling with someone else and then this person jumped in for fun. The chances of this guy getting into a street brawl though as a street predator are minimal to none and that's the mindset we go with in class especially given time constraints as mentioned earlier. Training at home however... now that's fun
Skpotamus
Brown Belt
You're looking at it from a BJJ standpoint, which is cool. No punches being thrown though. From a MMA standpoint, you have two ranges you can survive at using the guard. Very tight, and very far. Very close = the in tight I was talking about, very far = open guard usign yoru legs to keep them at bay. To quote Mario Sperry, "Anything in between is bull****"". Letting them get distance in your guard is going to open up those big punches that we see end fights in every UFC.
If you have the guard, you're trying to stop your opponent from establishing posture, off balance them, and then sweep, submit or escape. If the guy is working submissions or a pass, they're going to try to posture up to get space to escape. Getting them close does prevent that, it's a simple break down of their posture. Will it work forever? Hell no. It does give you time to spas out with the strikes to the head and create room for you to escape though. Allowing the guy in your guard to get space on their terms is inviting a pass or leg lock. Creating space yourself allows you to submit, sweep or escape. It is a bit harder to create distance inside the guard if you're getting pounded on. At least, it did with me and my opponents in NHB, YMMV.
Now, if you dont' have a good BJJ background, and you find someone taking you down, getting mma posture (head down, hands on biceps, elbows on the ground), you're pretty well screwed anyways. What you see more often in my area at least, is wrestlers that do a ground and pound on people in parking lots. Preventing them from getting distance allows you to stop their strikes, get some of your own in, access a tool, prevent them from accessing a weapon, etc.
Again, YMMV
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Hi Steve,
As you mentioned, different approaches to training would probably be a big influence on how you react. From the sounds of it, in a sport aspect, you want to create space so you can move from there. With us, we bring them in close just long enough to restrict them from being able to hit you so we can move away. Also, we don't train submissions or chokes on the ground, we train to get up, get back to our feet where we are most comfortable and move from there. To liberally quote something from our class on Tuesday night "There is no such thing as a fair fight for us". Experienced wrestlers going for submissions etc are most likely trained in a mat environment with rules, referees etc and respond to things like tap outs - on an unconscious level. With the current "climate" in Australia relating to the street predator, wrestling in school is not common at all so the majority of street predators are relying on strength in numbers or sheer intimidation and brute strength. In neither of those situations would we want to be staying too long on the ground rolling around on broken glass or asphalt etc. I emphasize the we because that's just our approach and not going to suit everyone.
Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for the BJJ guys etc. Their fitness is unbelievable as is their technique. For example a friend of a friend of mine (for real) has won several titles and accolades in the Australian junior BJJ competitions for his weight class. He grappled my friend who is a fellow ninjutsu practitioner and got him to submit in about 6 seconds - my friend was already on the ground, had just finished grappling with someone else and then this person jumped in for fun. The chances of this guy getting into a street brawl though as a street predator are minimal to none and that's the mindset we go with in class especially given time constraints as mentioned earlier. Training at home however... now that's fun
Hey guys. As you say, your mileage may vary, but based on my experience, if you're keeping a guy in tight, you're stalling. In MMA, BJJ or anything else, if the guy on the bottom is actively trying to keep a guy tight to him, he's not doing anything constructive. In order to hold me down, he's using both arms and both legs. If not, I'm going to have room to do damage. He's tied himself up and I have two arms, two fists and a head with which to work. Unless he has a shiv or an ice pick, he's not doing any damage. He's not working for a submission. He has no leverage for a punch and he's certainly not able to work for a sweep. He's only postponing the inevitable. If your goal is to get back up, keeping him tight is only going to hinder you.
Watch any grappling, whether it's MMA, a street fight or the BJJ Mundials and you'll see that in order to do anything, you have to have some space to work. The better you are, the less space you need. The better you are, the less space you allow on top.
MMA is a little misleading because, unless you're fighting in board shorts, you aren't likely to have the lack of friction to help you slide out of tight spots. There are things that you can do in an MMA fight that you can't anywhere else, because both fighters are slick from sweat. The principles of space are the same, but the application are different due to the lack of friction.
Supra Vijai
Black Belt
Yeah it's very difficult to explain our processes/methodologies in words without actually showing you how - I'm sure you'd be welcome to come watch/try a class
We seem to be derailing the thread a bit though so I'm going to bow out and say.. "let's agree to disagree?"
Best of luck with your training and I hope we come across each other's posts again, the back and forth has been fun
We seem to be derailing the thread a bit though so I'm going to bow out and say.. "let's agree to disagree?"
Best of luck with your training and I hope we come across each other's posts again, the back and forth has been fun
Skpotamus
Brown Belt
I think we're pretty much saying the same things, just differently and it's getting lost in cyber translation.
As you say, groundfighting is a game of space. Controlling the space is what's important. Whether that means creating space to escape, sweep or submit. Or pulling them in tight to deny them the space they want and try to create the space you want.
My position, is that in MMA or a streetfight, you need to either keep them ultra close and tight so you can stop them from posturing up and throwing bombs down on you. In MMA, you can still work for subs from in tight, such as a kimura, some chokes, get the arm position you want for the armbar, etc. A good groundfighter is going to try to control the hips to stop the guy on bottom from doing any of that and fight to a position where they can pass or strike effectively.
In a streetfight, my experience has been that people tend to try to keep their feet on the ground and stand up to punch or stomp. This creates a massive amount of space around your hips for you to escape, sweep, or submit. While pulling their head down, you prevent their strikes, but maintain the ability to get your hips out. Controlling the space.
Now, your position is that with your BJJ experience, I wouldn't be able to do that. You're probably right. Without the same level of skill/experience, I'm not going to be able to control you on the ground beyond stalling for a few minutes. Hopefully, the distracting strikes will let me create that space rapidly and escape. On you, it probably wouldn't, but on some Tapout wearing douche outside a frat house one night, it probably will.
I know I'm not doing a good job of explaining my point, so I'll kind of point out where I got the stance from. Watch the old Mario Sperry Vale Tudo tapes, and the Nogueira guard book. Kind of an old school approach, but it was how I was taught and seems to work pretty well for me and my students.
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