We cant be taken to the ground

[JowGaWolf]

Obviously you're stuck in technique and completely ignore my attempts at broadening you're mind. So I feel I'm wasting my time now. Sorry to bad for you You hav the awnsers any who. Why is so important to prove WC does or doesn't have something? Is it to make Jowga that much better? Good luck!

1. I never said that Jow Ga is better
2. I only asked a simple question. How many sweeps does Wing chun have.

The stuff that I said wasn't to make my fighting system sound better. It was to point out what was possible when others were saying that it's not possible. For example, based on some of the comments, sweeping the unrooted leg is a foreign concept to some people here. So I posted pictures of me doing just that. It wasn't to show that something is better. It was to show that it's possible and it's not as strange as what some people may think.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah but having quick reactions or a brilliant arsenal of defences is a different game to being protected from sweeps because of your stance.

Stances are everything and they protect you more than you realize. The fact that kung fu places so much importance on stance should tell you just how valuable it is.

Without a good stance, all of your "quick reactions or a brilliant arsenal of defences." amount to nothing. A weak stance makes your attacks and defense weak.

 

[Jake104]

So you're slamming people on their head while breaking their arm during training on a regular basis?

Makes one wonder how you're able to maintain so many training partners...

I don't Have a problem maintaining a steady flow of training partners. I have a current ad running on craigslist. It reads: for of a good time of head slamming and arm breaking call 480 555-1212. The response is overwhelming! I can't keep up with the demand. I may have to quit my job.

 

[Jake104]

Nope.. I'm only referring to leg sweeps. I looked for videos of Wing Chung leg sweeps and couldn't find many examples of a wing chun practitioner doing sweeps. I found tons of videos of kicks to the legs but not many of sweeps

See since it's a grappling/ground/WC thread. I am referring to sweeping and throwing from contact or clinch. The kicking the leg out thing is not my thing. I can't kick worth a crap!

 

[Jake104]

1. I never said that Jow Ga is better
2. I only asked a simple question. How many sweeps does Wing chun have.

The stuff that I said wasn't to make my fighting system sound better. It was to point out what was possible when others were saying that it's not possible. For example, based on some of the comments, sweeping the unrooted leg is a foreign concept to some people here. So I posted pictures of me doing just that. It wasn't to show that something is better. It was to show that it's possible and it's not as strange as what some people may think.

Look first off. I was shopping at the mall with the wife. So I may have been a bit cranky and harsh. You seem like a cool guy. But when you make assumptions of an art without really understanding the art other than just what's on the surface. I kind of take offense. I'm here to let you know that there is much more to it than what you may see on YouTube. I can't make a video and show you every sweep. Like Mike Tyson would say "that's ludicrous". Plus I don't know every sweep. I know one that I can do many ways? Geezer knows what I'm talking about with my whole "I know one of these and one of those done many different ways", really I'am quoting my teachers. Thats what they say and thats how we are taught at my school.

 

[Jake104]

Personally, this latest thing is probably an improvement for ol' Jake. Last time I trained with him he slammed me into a metal picnic table!

...OK fact is it was an accident and I didn't get hurt. Jake's a decent guy, so you can safely assume he's talking about the intent or potential effect of the technique, and not expect to find everyone else at the gym with a bandage on their head and cast on their arm.

Steve! Shhhhhhhhhh I have a tough guy persona on here. (Clears throat and talks in tough guy mean voice)YEAH I SLAMMED GEEZER. I TOLD HIM NO CREAM IN MY COFFEE. HE HAD TO PAY FOR THAT OVERSITE. YEAH IM TOUGH!!! (Now back to my regular timid crackly voice) Thanks Geezer our little secret

 

[Jake104]

Nope.. I'm only referring to leg sweeps. I looked for videos of Wing Chung leg sweeps and couldn't find many examples of a wing chun practitioner doing sweeps. I found tons of videos of kicks to the legs but not many of sweeps

I think since WC is close range combat, sweeps are mostly done from a bridge? Sweeping the front leg from kicking range is more of a kicking art thing like Muay Thai or Karate like in my video? At least that's my opinion. Mostly cause I can't kick. I can from a bridge heun ma or hook a leg.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think since WC is close range combat, sweeps are mostly done from a bridge. Sweeping the front leg is more of a kicking art thing like Muay Thai or Karate like in my video?

Are the sweep mainly focused on breaking structure and not actually sweeping the person to the point of where they are literally off the ground?

 

[Jake104]

Are the sweep mainly focused on breaking structure and not actually sweeping the person to the point of where they are literally off the ground?

Yes/no, if I trap both legs with my heun ma you're going for a ride like a typical Judo throw. If I sweep or hook one leg I break your structure and I then can just walk through you and maybe step on your rear weighted leg/foot and crumble you or maybe heun ma and kick which ever leg you try and post with out. Usually in that scenario the opponent ends up crossing there legs. Depends on what I get. Possibilities are endless.

 

[Jake104]

I'm pretty sure in chi gerk we try and attack the rear weighted leg in training? I haven't done traditional chi gerk in 20 years. So maybe someone who has can explain better from a traditional standpoint? From a practical standpoint I train what I explained every week both privates and mixed classes with actual grapplers/MMA/Muay Thai. So I'd at least like to think I kind of know what I'm talking about. Atleast 80%, 70%, 60% ok at least 50% of the time

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm pretty sure in chi gerk we try and attack the rear weighted leg in training? I haven't done traditional chi gerk in 20 years. So maybe someone who has can explain better from a traditional standpoint? From a practical standpoint I train what I explained every week both privates and mixed classes with actual grapplers/MMA/Muay Thai. So I'd at least like to think I kind of know what I'm talking about. Atleast 80%, 70%, 60% ok at least 50% of the time

Does the chi gerk work independent of a trap? I saw a few videos and I couldn't tell if the traps were necessary for making sure that the person doesn't punch you while you do the technique or if these techniques could be done independently of the trap. Since these chi gerk looks like a close range technique I'm assuming that it is done with a trap or a clinch.
I have an idea about with the Huen ma. It looks similar to one of the movements I've seen before in other fighting systems. It's definitely one of those movements that I try to watch out for.

 

[drop bear]

I don't want to rely on either. This is where sensitivity comes into play. Doesn't wrestling use sensitivity? Don't you counter on the transition?

Yeah but we are discussing two things here. One is that great big wide horse stance and two his ability to manage its short commings

So a horse stance like that probably is inherently open to all sorts of takedowns. But if he can compensate for them well great guns for him.

 

[drop bear]

Stances are everything and they protect you more than you realize. The fact that kung fu places so much importance on stance should tell you just how valuable it is.

Without a good stance, all of your "quick reactions or a brilliant arsenal of defences." amount to nothing. A weak stance makes your attacks and defense weak.

Your stance is a compromise. The more you strengthen one side you weaken the other. So the deeper rooted that stance gets the better it can defend elements like trying to secure the hips.but the worse it becomes at having that foot reaped out.

When you throw someone. You work that principle by using combinations of throws.

So you have an inherent weakness in that stance. But when called on it your response is you are too slick to get trapped.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Your stance is a compromise. The more you strengthen one side you weaken the other. So the deeper rooted that stance gets the better it can defend elements like trying to secure the hips.but the worse it becomes at having that foot reaped out.

When you throw someone. You work that principle by using combinations of throws.

So you have an inherent weakness in that stance. But when called on it your response is you are too slick to get trapped.

My stance isn't a "big ole wide horse stance" like the one Jake Mace is doing.

I use a low horse stance in free sparring and what I'm saying is from experience and not from guessing at what I think it will do.
Do you use a low horse stance in free sparring? If not then you don't have the understanding of the horse stance in the same light that I do. If you do WC then you may never even be in a horse stance that low because it breaks the foundation that needed for WC techniques.

Is there a weakness in my horse stance? Yes, but it isn't the weaknesses that you are claiming. The reason I know is because I fight in this stance a lot, which gives me up close and personal understanding of what works with this stance and what doesn't.

Do you know why I don't tell WC practitioners that their stances are useless and what can and can't be done from their stance? It's because I don't fight in their stance, so how can I tell them about a stance that they are always fighting in? How can you tell me about the stance that I'm always fighting in, when you don't fight in it, nor try to understand it on a deeper level.

Someone joke about me posting videos that take up bandwidth. I only show videos of me using the techniques that I say I use because of people like you, who can't take what I'm saying as true. And each time I've been able to show that I do what I say, which is more than most people have done. If you do WC then the information that I give you can only help you when you spar against someone who fights in a low stance. But instead of trying to learn you just rather say that I'm "too slick"

 

[drop bear]

My stance isn't a "big ole wide horse stance" like the one Jake Mace is doing.

I use a low horse stance in free sparring and what I'm saying is from experience and not from guessing at what I think it will do.
Do you use a low horse stance in free sparring? If not then you don't have the understanding of the horse stance in the same light that I do. If you do WC then you may never even be in a horse stance that low because it breaks the foundation that needed for WC techniques.

Is there a weakness in my horse stance? Yes, but it isn't the weaknesses that you are claiming. The reason I know is because I fight in this stance a lot, which gives me up close and personal understanding of what works with this stance and what doesn't.

Do you know why I don't tell WC practitioners that their stances are useless and what can and can't be done from their stance? It's because I don't fight in their stance, so how can I tell them about a stance that they are always fighting in? How can you tell me about the stance that I'm always fighting in, when you don't fight in it, nor try to understand it on a deeper level.

Someone joke about me posting videos that take up bandwidth. I only show videos of me using the techniques that I say I use because of people like you, who can't take what I'm saying as true. And each time I've been able to show that I do what I say, which is more than most people have done. If you do WC then the information that I give you can only help you when you spar against someone who fights in a low stance. But instead of trying to learn you just rather say that I'm "too slick"

You are not really reading what i am posting are you?

 

[geezer]

I use a low horse stance in free sparring and what I'm saying is from experience ...Is there a weakness in my horse stance? Yes, but it isn't the weaknesses that you are claiming.

In my limited experience with low, wide stances, the first trade off is less mobility in return for greater stability. The images you've posted of yourself sparring in a low horse (by WC standards) suggest that this might be a problem, especially working against a lanky, evasive opponent.

The other possible vulnerability I spot might be that lead knee if targeted by quick kicks as well as sweeps. Have any of your sparring partners who favor a higher, more mobile stance tried to target your knee and shins with rapid kicks? Has it ever been a problem?

 

[geezer]

.

Without a good stance, all of your "quick reactions or a brilliant arsenal of defences." amount to nothing. A weak stance makes your attacks and defense weak.

This statement is, broadly speaking, true. A good, strong stance is essential. But there are many kinds of strength. The horse stance you use in Jow Ga is an example of one type of strength that provides an appropriate foundation to your system. WC's higher Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma or character two goat-riding stance provides a more flexible or yielding foundation, better suited to the WC system.

Flexible stances can be strong too. The deeper horse has the yang strength of the oak tree, while the YGKYM has the yin strength of bamboo. Each survives the storm according to it's nature.

Now how's that for fortune cookie wisdom!

 

[Punchy]

Flexible stances can be strong too. The deeper horse has the yang strength of the oak tree, while the YGKYM has the yin strength of bamboo. Each survives the storm according to it's nature.

Now how's that for fortune cookie wisdom!

.........in bed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In my limited experience with low, wide stances, the first trade off is less mobility in return for greater stability. The images you've posted of yourself sparring in a low horse (by WC standards) suggest that this might be a problem, especially working against a lanky, evasive opponent.

The other possible vulnerability I spot might be that lead knee if targeted by quick kicks as well as sweeps. Have any of your sparring partners who favor a higher, more mobile stance tried to target your knee and shins with rapid kicks? Has it ever been a problem?

It's possible to chase someone down while in a low horse stance but it's not easy. It requires a tremendous amount of leg muscle endurance and strength. That's one of the biggest weaknesses of the stance. Everything is fine with mobility when it's done in bursts, but we can't sustain that for long periods of times. For example, it's possible to move with the same speed and evasiveness that Floyd Mayweather uses, but it's only for a short period of time. I could chase someone 15 feet down the street at 20 feet my legs are burning and no longer able to move with efficiency.

Yes they targeted my knee and the stance is vulnerable to the kick if it comes from the side. It doesn't break the knee. It turns the knee inward (I actually had my kung fur brother kick me in the knee softly at first and then to gradually kick harder. The end result is that I went down to my knee and was kneeling with my back turned to him. I'm thinking that I'll need to either shuffle forward or towards the kick in order to prevent it. I haven't worked it out yet but I'm aware of not letting too many kicks to my leg to go unchallenged.

I had a kid kick me full force straight on my knee by accident and I was so thankful that I was in horse because the force of that kick would have broken my knee. She hit the front of it but because the knee was bent it couldn't bend the other way. Another reason to have knees slightly bent regardless of what stance one is in.

Sweeps are surprisingly easy to deal with while in a low stance because I can see the leg movements better. I can see kicks but they are quick and the stance puts me at a dangerous kicking level. Between kicks and sweeps, the kicks are the things that I worry about the most.

Someone who is taller than me, wouldn't get the same low horse stance because the purpose of the low stance that I do is be lower than my opponent by a certain amount. The taller my opponent is the higher up I can be, which is why I rather fight taller opponents.

I know that Wing Chun doesn't do a low stance because the techniques weren't designed for a low stance. For WC I think of someone fighting in a narrow hall way with limited room. In environments like that I would have to use the higher stances that our style has. We actually have a stance that's similar to Wing Chun. I saw a video one day and I thought that I was looking at WC, but it was Jow Ga. The stance is similar but not the trapping and the rest of the other stuff.

 

[geezer]

I saw a video one day and I thought that I was looking at WC, but it was Jow Ga. The stance is similar...

There's a lot of surprising stuff once you scratch the surface. For example, the following is WC. For some reason this guy didn't think it was hard enough as it is, so he's wearing a 50# weight vest!