Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hey Chris,
Great points as always. Question for you. Having had similar discussions with other MAists, I've had some people say that while the majority of attackers will probably be of the untrained category, they prefer to train against the skilled attacker. I'm assuming reason being that its better to be over than under prepared.
I have a few take down defenses in Kenpo. Probably pretty effective against the average Joe, but against someone really trained in a grappling based art, I'll probably land on my rear, unless I make some changes....changes that I'll probably only get from working with a grappler. I feel confident enough with the move, but I'd like to supercharge it up a bit.
Hey Mike,
While I agree again in principle, again the details are different. When it comes to being over- or under-prepared, that isn't really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about being prepared for the higher likelihood, not the highest skill-set. So we are over-prepared, in that we are aiming to be prepared for as many eventualities as possible (ground escape, avoiding the ground, close-quater brawling, groups, weapon defence, pre-emptive striking, and more). But each subject has to be relevant to potential realities. Again, someone "really trained in a grappling based art" is not likely to be the attacker faced.
Training the mechanics of a trained system, or against it, is that you train to expect the actions of the trained system. That has the same issues as any formalised system, really, in that you are training for (and against) the types of things you will simply never encounter (outside of training or competition if that is included). And my job is to prepare my guys for the higher probability.
If you train in karate, for instance, do you expect that an attacker will attack with Mawashi Geri and a traditional Oi Zuki punch in a modern assault? No, I hope not. And if the defences are geared towards those attacks, then they won't necessarily work against more modern assaults (hooking haymaker punches, for example). So you need to train for what you will encounter. And, really, that is the aim we are going for.
Excellent. Sometimes, what appears to be common sense to me isn't seen that way by others.This has come up in other threads and may be a cultural difference. Wrestling is very common in America and I'd say that the odds of someone having some wrestling training from school is pretty good here. While they may not be former collegiate All-American wrestlers, the chances of a drunk thug having had some experience wrestling is better than even. That may not be the case in Europe or Australia.
Add to this that judo is actually gaining traction in schools, too, and you've got a lot of kids exposed to grappling early. I know that our local high schools have judo clubs and we've had several teenagers join my BJJ school with 2 or 3 years of judo under their belts. I'll cede the point since you train for self defense and I don't, but I will say that it doesn't make sense to me. After training against competent grapplers, controlling someone without any experience is simple. Training to defend against wrestlers will only make defending oneself from an untrained bull rush easier, not harder.
I don't know how much time you've spent training BJJ, but I'm glad to hear it. I want to be clear, though, that I'm not suggesting that you train BJJ or wrestling, attack like a luchador or anything like that. What I'm saying is that, periodically, it seems like it would be a good idea to pressure test your techniques against competent grapplers as opposed to working them out against your own guys who may or may not be able to replicate a "realistic" attack.
Hey Steve,
Yeah, cultural issues raise their ugly head again.... wrestling and other forms of grappling don't have any presence in our school system, the most exposure that most have here is things like the UFC, so they know to take someone to the ground (as UFC is the most realester thing there is....), but not how to, and it comes out as a rush tackle.
In regard to pressure testing against competant grapplers, that's already been done. I need my guys to be able to attack properly as well (even in an "unskilled" way) in order for the techniques to be trained properly every time. And again, if they don't give a satisfactorily "realistic" attack, then I tend to step in... that happened a number of times when we went against knives last month, for instance. Woke a few of them up... that was fun....
